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Thread: Stopped by WSP tonight

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    Regular Member sigfan's Avatar
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    Question Stopped by WSP tonight

    I was pulled over in my car tonight by Washington State Patrol. I pulled over, turned the interior lights on, cracked my window and put my hands on the wheel. The officer charged up to the car and started yelling at me something to the tune of "What were you doing? I didn't want you. I wanted the corvette in front of you but you were weaving and I had to get you." (there was no corvette -- anywhere -- that I could see). He went off with me trying to interject every 5 seconds or so, but he was clearly pissed. When he was done I said "Sir, for your safety and for mine, you should know I have a firearm on my right hip." His face changed from the angry face he had to confused to a strangely relieved face. He asked to see my license. I handed him both my license and my CPL. He checked them out and then said "consider yourself barked at." and let me go. It was a bit strange.

    Don't really think I was weaving as I was wide awake, alert and listening to Cam & Company on Sirius Patriot radio. In either case, this is the second time I've been pulled over for "weaving" in the past few months and it's the second time that simply stating what I did resulted in nothing more than a "catch and release." It goes against my nature to give that information, but I thought I'd pass the info along for analysis by the group. Would appreciate thoughts on the encouter, my reaction, the charge of "weaving" and anything else you care to discuss relevant to the subject.
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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Maybe the guys painting the lines on the road arent getting them straight and the cops just think its you.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    http://www.boingboing.net/2011/06/09...intimidat.html
    "They put guns to our heads and threw us on the ground," Davis said.

    Benoit said a Miami Beach officer grabbed his cell phone, said "You want to be [expletive] Paparazzi?" and stomped on his phone before placing him in handcuffs and shoving the crunched phone in Benoit's back pocket.

    He said the couple joined other witnesses already in cuffs and being watched by officers, who were on the lookout for two passengers who, police believe at the time, had bailed out of Herisse's car. It is still not known whether any passengers were in the car.
    The last line is most telling. A justification can always be fabricated, and the entire legal system is set on auto pilot when it comes to police credibility.

    Weaving in a lane.

    No seat belt.

    License plate light out.

    Matched a description of a suspect.

    Etc.

    A good cop can always make up a lie to give him a pretense to pull you over. It sounds like the cop just wanted to see if you were drunk, running drugs, or up to no good -- and that could be more or less likely depending on the time of night, location and the make/model of vehicle you were driving (and it's condition and appearance).
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 06-12-2011 at 03:18 AM.

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    Regular Member GuidoZ's Avatar
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    I've yet to be pulled over while carrying (and I do have my CCW), though if I ever was, I would do the same thing. I know the law in WA state says you do not have to inform the officer (PDF), but I'd rather be upfront and cooperative than catch the LEO off guard on a bad day.

    I like the way you did it as well. Much better than blurting "Stop talking so I can tell you I have a gun!"

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I was pulled over for weaving by WSP last summer when coming back from Spokane OC meet. It was 2 in the morning I may have very well been weaving. I didn't volunteer I am carrying ( I personally don't feel it's necessary). He had approached from the passenger side saw I was OCing since his flashlight hesitated briefly on it as he swept the interior of my car with it.

    He was polite, took my license, (didn't even ask for insurance) asked how far I was going, I told him to the next stop to get a big cup of coffee and then home. He asked if he thought I'd make it I said yes his stop made me very wide awake. He ran my license and let me go. Found out a few day later license was suspended, he didn't make an issue of it.

    Your particular officer seemed to have been in a bad mood and was throwing out his fishing net hoping to catch something worthwhile. And I have seen this happen a lot especially at night. Or like the Bellingham Police, who will run my license even when I am not driving to try to find stuff on me. Guess they don't like being corrected by their employers.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Your particular officer seemed to have been in a bad mood and was throwing out his fishing net hoping to catch something worthwhile. And I have seen this happen a lot especially at night. Or like the Bellingham Police, who will run my license even when I am not driving to try to find stuff on me. Guess they don't like being corrected by their employers.
    Or, given our group's history of experience with the WSP, maybe there really was a "corvette" the OP just didn't see, and the universal "oh chit" reaction of seeing a cop behind him made him weave a little...
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigfan View Post
    weaving and I had to get you."
    Unless he meant you were dodging in and out of traffic, that's not a reason to pull you over.
    cite
    1 Washington State's requirement that automobile drivers remain within a single lane of travel “as nearly as practicable” does not impose strict liability.1  A vehicle crossing over a lane once for one second by two tire widths does not, without more, constitute a traffic violation justifying a stop by a police officer.
    That's going over the line. Weaving in a lane, especially, certainly does not qualify.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Unless he meant you were dodging in and out of traffic, that's not a reason to pull you over.
    cite


    That's going over the line. Weaving in a lane, especially, certainly does not qualify.
    I was looking for that but couldn't find the court case, having read that before. Thanks.

    Washington is actually pretty strong against pretext stops.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Found out a few day later license was suspended, he didn't make an issue of it.
    I don't follow this part. He suspended your license? Or you had it suspended for an offense and didn't know it? You found out by postal mail? Sounds like he let you go on with a suspended license, he saw it at the time and just ignored it. That's not a wise move - what if you were in a fender bender later on down the road - he'd be culpable (IANAL) if you were at fault and opposing lawyer discovered you were allowed to drive on a susp. lic.. This whole thing about LEOs ability to just use discretion is strange and unpredictable, imo.

    Glad you got on your way with no hassle.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 06-13-2011 at 09:19 AM.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    I don't follow this part. He suspended your license? Or you had it suspended for an offense and didn't know it? You found out by postal mail? Sounds like he let you go on with a suspended license, he saw it at the time and just ignored it. That's not a wise move - what if you were in a fender bender later on down the road - he'd be culpable (IANAL) if you were at fault and opposing lawyer discovered you were allowed to drive on a susp. lic.. This whole thing about LEOs ability to just use discretion is strange and unpredictable, imo.

    Glad you got on your way with no hassle.
    In my community we don't receive mail at our house. So I didn't find out until later it was suspended.....( a continual fight and problem I am having right now mostly due to financial issue). And no I didn't find out until I received a ticket for it like usual.

    I don't see how he would be culpable, and personally feel that more officers should use more discretion. License has nothing to do with competence in this state anymore it is simply a law enforcement tool and a form of control.

    I appreciated the fact and recognized it later that he saw I wasn't up to anything nefarious and let me use my right to travel freely to get back home.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post

    I don't see how he would be culpable, and personally feel that more officers should use more discretion. License has nothing to do with competence in this state anymore it is simply a law enforcement tool and a form of control.
    Not culpable???? Sorry but apparently you don't understand the world of Torts and Lawyers.

    If you had, just like the other party pointed out, had an accident and it became known that the Trooper had let you go with full knowledge that your license was suspended, even a lousy lawyer could make a case for his culpability.

    The person you hit would suddenly have numerous accident induced maladies and not only you would be sued but the State as well.

    Yes, the license probably doesn't indicate your ability or lack thereof. It merely indicates the status of your driving priviledge. The Trooper is not empowered to overlook the status for good reason. He merely knows that the status is "suspended" and not the reason. It could be as benign as a lack of payment for a fine, or it could be for killing a group of schoolkids in a crossing while stoned on dope and pickled on alcohol. Suspended to him merely means you can't drive legally. To allow you to drive illegally, when he had the means to prevent you from doing so, makes him culpable in anything that happens later on while you are driving.

    Wish it otherwise but that's the way it is.
    Last edited by amlevin; 06-13-2011 at 10:02 AM.
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    Simple question. Was is actually suspended at the time of the stop?
    Might have been it simply did not show up until after that stop and for the officer it came back as valid. Assuming he ever really ran it.

    One would think at the very least he would mention it was suspended and ask for another person to come drive you and the car home. People are correct about an officer not letting you drive away with s suspended license.
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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Coming from driving some "smaller" cars.. Just being in the wake of a semi trailer can cause a vehicle to drift back and forth in a lane some, let alone some crosswind.

    I've been rolled for both, for "weaving". Usually asks why, and the answer is.. "Feel that crosswind?"..

    Never gone beyond that.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deepdiver36 View Post
    Simple question. Was is actually suspended at the time of the stop?
    Might have been it simply did not show up until after that stop and for the officer it came back as valid. Assuming he ever really ran it.

    One would think at the very least he would mention it was suspended and ask for another person to come drive you and the car home. People are correct about an officer not letting you drive away with s suspended license.
    We're kind of getting of topic, but I think AM's commentary is the valid assessment, but it MAY have not shown up at the time of the LEO's checking.

    I just don't think he would have let you drive on a Sus-Lic. There's no fault on your end SVG, we're just trying to understand the system and the discretion aspect they use.

    $.02

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    Coming from driving some "smaller" cars.. Just being in the wake of a semi trailer can cause a vehicle to drift back and forth in a lane some, let alone some crosswind.

    I've been rolled for both, for "weaving". Usually asks why, and the answer is.. "Feel that crosswind?"..

    Never gone beyond that.
    It's sounding to me like this 'weaving' thing is used as a pretext. If I ever get pulled and told that, I think I'll ask how to define that 'violation' - within the lane it shouldn't be a charge, even if one is driving in a prolonged serpentine fashion - as long as no white or yellow lines are crossed. It's stupid (in practice) laws like this, impossible to define which are used as 'cause' to stop when, in fact, there is no cause other than profiling the person or the car (red hot rods, for ex.)

    $.02

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    It's sounding to me like this 'weaving' thing is used as a pretext. If I ever get pulled and told that, I think I'll ask how to define that 'violation' - within the lane it shouldn't be a charge, even if one is driving in a prolonged serpentine fashion - as long as no white or yellow lines are crossed. It's stupid (in practice) laws like this, impossible to define which are used as 'cause' to stop when, in fact, there is no cause other than profiling the person or the car (red hot rods, for ex.)

    $.02
    Yknow, motorcycles "weave" in the lane all the time... Can anyone point out WERE in the rcw it defines weaving, or responsibility to stay in lane?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Yknow, motorcycles "weave" in the lane all the time... Can anyone point out WERE in the rcw it defines weaving, or responsibility to stay in lane?


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    It isn't. That's the point of the earlier cited case. In fact, even weaving and slightly crossing the lane boundaries is acceptable (within reason, defined as two tire widths and some other noise).
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Not culpable???? Sorry but apparently you don't understand the world of Torts and Lawyers.

    If you had, just like the other party pointed out, had an accident and it became known that the Trooper had let you go with full knowledge that your license was suspended, even a lousy lawyer could make a case for his culpability.

    The person you hit would suddenly have numerous accident induced maladies and not only you would be sued but the State as well.

    Yes, the license probably doesn't indicate your ability or lack thereof. It merely indicates the status of your driving priviledge. The Trooper is not empowered to overlook the status for good reason. He merely knows that the status is "suspended" and not the reason. It could be as benign as a lack of payment for a fine, or it could be for killing a group of schoolkids in a crossing while stoned on dope and pickled on alcohol. Suspended to him merely means you can't drive legally. To allow you to drive illegally, when he had the means to prevent you from doing so, makes him culpable in anything that happens later on while you are driving.

    Wish it otherwise but that's the way it is.
    I understand torts and understand how things are twisted in the system don't agree with it. And my suspension had nothing to do with bad driving. I could have a full license and have done all the same things. And he could have been sued because he let me drive tired......

    Illegal aliens who are breaking the law by being here illegally can get drivers license's.

    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    Coming from driving some "smaller" cars.. Just being in the wake of a semi trailer can cause a vehicle to drift back and forth in a lane some, let alone some crosswind.

    I've been rolled for both, for "weaving". Usually asks why, and the answer is.. "Feel that crosswind?"..

    Never gone beyond that.
    It was definitely suspended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    We're kind of getting of topic, but I think AM's commentary is the valid assessment, but it MAY have not shown up at the time of the LEO's checking.

    I just don't think he would have let you drive on a Sus-Lic. There's no fault on your end SVG, we're just trying to understand the system and the discretion aspect they use.

    $.02
    Since I don't agree with the driving is a privilege idea, I agree with the officers discretion, especially since I was not engaged in any other "criminal" activity. There is also the fact the officer has been through this before and knew that if taken to court the infraction would have been dismissed for several reasons.

    I don't believe in proactive law enforcement and encourage and respect officers who use discretion.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I understand torts and understand how things are twisted in the system don't agree with it. And my suspension had nothing to do with bad driving. I could have a full license and have done all the same things. And he could have been sued because he let me drive tired......

    Illegal aliens who are breaking the law by being here illegally can get drivers license's.



    It was definitely suspended.



    Since I don't agree with the driving is a privilege idea, I agree with the officers discretion, especially since I was not engaged in any other "criminal" activity. There is also the fact the officer has been through this before and knew that if taken to court the infraction would have been dismissed for several reasons.

    I don't believe in proactive law enforcement and encourage and respect officers who use discretion.
    What a backwards freaking society we have. We have criminals comming to this country illegally and our government is embracing it and making it easier for them, letting them invade our country and take it over, and is giving up US soil to mexico because it is unsafe for Americans. We have to carry extra insurance for those that dont have any. We have to carry recording equipment to prove that those who have been hired to uphold the law are illegally harrasing law abiding citizens, and to top it all off, our government have discussed cutting pay to those who are putting their lives on the line to protect this country, and possibly cutting social security for those who worked and payed taxes, so that they can continue to pay welfare to those who are to lazy to work.

    Is this really what the masses voted for? Of course more amazing to me is how few Americans care.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    Y'all just need to get some baskets and carry them in the back seat.

    "Why, yes, officer. I am a weaver. Of course I was weaving."

    Or, "No way officer. Nobody is so good he can weave and drive at the same time."

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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Oh sweet democracy...

    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    Is this really what the masses voted for? Of course more amazing to me is how few Americans care.
    Remember, Democracy wasn't the original plan. A Republic and the Rule of Law was the intention, not the Rule of the Masses. Or perhaps, the du-masses.

    "We have sometimes been tempted to define democracy as an institution in which the whole is equal to the scum of all the parts." Kieth Preston, Pot Shots from Pegasus

    I love that quote. And here's another since I'm on a roll here.

    "Democracy means government by the uneducated, while aristocracy means government by the badly educated." G.K. Chesterton, NY Times

    Help me, I can't stop!

    "The tyranny of a Prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy." Montesquieu, Spirit of the Laws

    Oh, ouch. Last one... Really. Ok, just one more since you asked so nice...

    "The problem of democracy is not the problem of getting rid of kings. It is the problem of clothing the whole people with the elements of kingship. To make kings and queens out of a hundred million people: that is the Problem of American democracy." F.C. Morehouse, The Problem of Democracy
    Last edited by Freedom First; 06-15-2011 at 02:42 AM.
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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom First View Post
    Remember, Democracy wasn't the original plan. A Republic and the Rule of Law was the intention, not the Rule of the Masses. Or perhaps, the du-masses.

    "We have sometimes been tempted to define democracy as an institution in which the whole is equal to the scum of all the parts." Kieth Preston, Pot Shots from Pegasus

    I love that quote. And here's another since I'm on a roll here.

    "Democracy means government by the uneducated, while aristocracy means government by the badly educated." G.K. Chesterton, NY Times

    Help me, I can't stop!

    "The tyranny of a Prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy." Montesquieu, Spirit of the Laws

    Oh, ouch. Last one... Really. Ok, just one more since you asked so nice...

    "The problem of democracy is not the problem of getting rid of kings. It is the problem of clothing the whole people with the elements of kingship. To make kings and queens out of a hundred million people: that is the Problem of American democracy." F.C. Morehouse, The Problem of Democracy

    This is one of my favorites...

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Francis Bellamy 1892

    Attachment 6028
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

  23. #23
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Yknow, motorcycles "weave" in the lane all the time... Can anyone point out WERE in the rcw it defines weaving, or responsibility to stay in lane?
    Superb point. Even considering a MC as being narrower than most cars, drivers still react to them similarly. And HELL yes, MC weave and do stuff that looks dangerous as all get out. I rode a little Honda 250 back in the day - not like I'm anti-bike.

    Part of it is the illusion that they're speeding when they just have insane acceleration, but whoa, lol. If they are going to stop car drivers for 'weaving' seems like every MC rider would be at risk for a stop.

    Around here there is the highest population of MC riders I've ever seen in Virginia (F-burg). Trikes, quads, monster bikes with ape-hangers and room for two girls on the back.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Since I don't agree with the driving is a privilege idea, I agree with the officers discretion, especially since I was not engaged in any other "criminal" activity.
    Correct. Traveling is a moral and historical right. Just because it is widely regarded as a privilege by the state doesn't make it so. The current situation is a natural consequence of road socialism.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    This is one of my favorites...

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Francis Bellamy 1892

    Attachment 6028
    If you are going to quote Francis Bellamy then at least use the version he wrote.

    I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
    It's been modified 4 times since he originally wrote it.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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