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examiner.com - Herman Cain on Gun Control

Aknazer

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And I would argue that requiring a permit is onerous because it restricts how I may carry. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed and yet they are infringing on how I carry by saying I need a permission slip should I want to put on a coat.
 

eye95

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I understand your position. I just disagree.

Since allowing open carry, but restricting the independent act of concealing, would not stop the individual from exercising the right to carry, IMO, laws that would restrict or license concealment would fall under the umbrella of legitimate legislative policy, and not the protection granted by the enumeration of the right.

I would find onerous laws that make it harder or impossible to carry when and where one will. Laws regarding concealment would not meet this standard.

States should be able to make laws that are not onerous. The courts should decide whether or not laws are onerous. The feds ought to stay out of it. That sounds like Herman Cain's position (although his opinion of onerous and mine would likely differ, as do yours and mine).
 

PrayingForWar

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When reasoned argument is lacking, the standard response is to revert to schoolyard tactics of name calling.

Ah, so we are supposed to follow what the rest of the world does ... like lemmings, right off the cliff. Are you sure you understand what fractional reserve banking is? Do you understand that all it does is make everyone a debtor? Please supply a source for your accusation that Ron Paul has advocated selling off all our gold (as if we have any). When you do so, please make sure that the article includes a direct quote from him.


Why not end with the classic "neener neener neener"?

How's this?

http://www.nysun.com/national/selling-gold-at-fort-knox-emerges-as-next-big/87350/

Of course no matter what is presented to some people, they will refuse to accept it. I really don't care. It's funny that you immediately knew I was reffering to RP as "The Tin Foil Hat Messiah". The reason RP is a complete joke and has ZERO chance of getting a nomination isn't really his policies, it's his zealots. No one wants to be associated with foaming at the mouth tin foil hat wearing fruitbats pointing at contrails in the sky.

Of course, I'm not here defending FR Banking either. I'd just like to hear some legitimate reasons why EVERY COUNTRY USES IT. Not nonsensical rants about greedy billionaires, I can get that from the daily kos.

So merely having been a chairman at a federal reserve bank should disqualify Herman Cain? Advocating States rights doesn't scare me either. If the people who live in California want insipid gun laws within the parameters set by SCOTUS rulings, what does that have to do with the cost of ammo in Texas?
 

PrayingForWar

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By throwing in this one sentence you have shown the audience that you have lost the argument. If you had a valid argument you wouldn't need name calling... some may have been inclined to agree with you, but you just showed them that your argument is weak and you are incapable of defending it.

I'm sorry, are you under the impression I give a damm what you think?

That's your mistake, not mine.
 

Gunslinger

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I am wondering if Cain is more pro-state or pro-Federal Government. It seems that he answered the question in a way that begged more questions.

I was wondering the same thing. He sounds like a Federalist, which isn't in and of itself a bad thing. Dual Federalism is the current flavor with the pie cut more generously on the State level. He seems to be saying this, even if he is not aware of it. A Federalist who starts by affirming the BoR as absolute, unalterable law of the land is my taste. But then, I'm a Constitutionalist first and foremost. The first 9 Amendments take preeminence over the 10th. The 10th makes it clear the Feds have only enumerated powers. The rest of them after the 10th are eyewash--with the exception of the 14th.. He could have handled it much better, although I think his intentions are ok.
 

dmatting

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The portion of the article that quotes Paul as saying the sale of gold reserves would be “a good and moral decision. An individual would have to do the same.” - I believe is being taken out of context. The rest of that paragraph discusses another proponent of the sale of the gold reserves but only as an action that would be done if the government maintains the fiat currency and does not go back to the gold standard. So while you are accusing him of talking out of both sides of his mouth on this issue, it appears to really be only a matter of perspective. If we stay with the fiat currency, then he is a proponent of selling the gold. Otherwise, he is wholeheartedly for moving away from the fiat currency and going to a currency that is backed with gold and/or silver. I suppose that the article is not clear enough and Paul should be asked to clarify the position/statements.

Of course no matter what is presented to some people, they will refuse to accept it. I really don't care. It's funny that you immediately knew I was reffering to RP as "The Tin Foil Hat Messiah". The reason RP is a complete joke and has ZERO chance of getting a nomination isn't really his policies, it's his zealots. No one wants to be associated with foaming at the mouth tin foil hat wearing fruitbats pointing at contrails in the sky.
Paul is the only candidate speaking about sound money, the Fed and a gold standard. Who else would you be referring to?

Of course, I'm not here defending FR Banking either. I'd just like to hear some legitimate reasons why EVERY COUNTRY USES IT. Not nonsensical rants about greedy billionaires, I can get that from the daily kos.
I am not a proponent of the fractional reserve banking system and see no legitimate reason for it in a free society. I could care less what other countries do with their banking systems or why they do it. Fractional reserve banking does one simple thing - it turns money into debt. We are a debtor nation - thelargest in the history of the world - and we have the Federal Reserve to thank for it.

So merely having been a chairman at a federal reserve bank should disqualify Herman Cain?
From my POV, yes. He is a proponent of the system and believes in it and will do what he can to perpetuate it.

Advocating States rights doesn't scare me either. If the people who live in California want insipid gun laws within the parameters set by SCOTUS rulings, what does that have to do with the cost of ammo in Texas?
Who knows - perhaps it does have an effect on the price of ammo in Texas - economics can be odd - which is why central planning is never a good idea. I get your point, though. I wish more people would vote with their feet by leaving states that are so deep into policies that they abhor and move to states that they are more aligned with. My wife and I did just that - from NY to NC.
 
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PrayingForWar

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The portion of the article that quotes Paul as saying the sale of gold reserves would be “a good and moral decision. An individual would have to do the same.” - I believe is being taken out of context. The rest of that paragraph discusses another proponent of the sale of the gold reserves but only as an action that would be done if the government maintains the fiat currency and does not go back to the gold standard. So while you are accusing him of talking out of both sides of his mouth on this issue, it appears to really be only a matter of perspective. If we stay with the fiat currency, then he is a proponent of selling the gold. Otherwise, he is wholeheartedly for moving away from the fiat currency and going to a currency that is backed with gold and/or silver.

That sounds kinda thin to me, but perhaps the intention of the article was to give the perspective RP supports selling off the reserves without conditions. What I would have to ask then is this:

Sell it for what? More fiat currency from another country, or for some of our fiat currency in return?


Paul is the only candidate speaking about sound money, the Fed and a gold standard. Who else would you be referring to?

Very astute...


I am not a proponent of the fractional reserve banking system and see no legitimate reason for it in a free society. I could care less what other countries do with their banking systems or why they do it. Fractional reserve banking does one simple thing - it turns money into debt. We are a debtor nation - thelargest in the history of the world - and we have the Federal Reserve to thank for it.

I'm not a proponent of it either, in fact the biggest reason I would be against it is because it is a tenet of socialism outlined in "The Communist Manifesto". I will point out though, that it has been in existance since 1913 (I think) and during that time our country has become a financial jaugernaut. I don't think FRB was the reason, since it hasn't done the same for anyone else, but it didn't seem to stop us from achieveing what he have. I would be more than happy to see a better system, but no one has been able to explain to me how it can be done. I'm not an economist, and I don't pretend to understand all of the nuances and intricacies like many other people I've heard smugly lecture anyone who will listen.


From my POV, yes. He is a proponent of the system and believes in it and will do what he can to perpetuate it.

I am not concerned with perpetuating the FRB system at this point in time. I'm impressed enough with what I've heard HC say long ago from hearing him fill in for Neal Boortz. I'm concerned with defeating BHO, period. I think HC is just the guy to do it.


Who knows - perhaps it does have an effect on the price of ammo in Texas - economics can be odd - which is why central planning is never a good idea. I get your point, though. I wish more people would vote with their feet by leaving states that are so deep into policies that they abhor and move to states that they are more aligned with. My wife and I did just that - from NY to NC.

We probably agree on a lot more things than disagree. I hope you can understand my disgust for the tin foil hat wearing malcontents who attach themselves to certain causes and candidates, only to marginalize them and bring them down in the arena of public opinion. Sometimes I suspect that the people leading this mob does so intentionally, because they're actually out to destroy libertarianism.

I guess I'm a conspiracy nut myself...

Oh well.
 

Alexcabbie

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I'm sorry, are you under the impression I give a damm what you think?

That's your mistake, not mine.

Thanks, PFW, for responding to a few folks I have put on "ignore".

One thing I absolutely adore about Mr. Cain is that if you ask him the time, he will not take an hour to give you instructions on how to make a watch. You can count on Cain for a straight answer to a straight question every time.

I especially admire his attitude about "racial injustice". He acknowledges that it existed and to some extent still does. But he's smart enough to realize that Democrat policies are designed to promote, not ameliorate, racial strife; and that this race-baiting is done purely for cynical anticipation of "divide and conquer" political gain.

As to Cain's pronouncement that gun control is a "state issue", it dovetails quite nicely with I95's observation (on another thread) that Federally-mandated reciprocity would be a violation of the 9th and 10th Amendments (as well as an end-run around the 2nd Amendment).

Herman Cain is fine with me for President. But let us not forget, the Congress has far more power. As much as we all want to be shut of Obama, it will do none of us any good if we end up with President Mister Ideal Conservative and enough damn pinkos to obstruct every effort he (or she - forget not Palin and Bachman -) makes to right the Ship of State. To set things right, we need to do our best to see to it that the House is retained [and thank you, Congressman here's - a - picture -of -my Wiener] and that the Senate has a filibuster-proof, veto proof majority of the right kind of folks (not necessarily Republicans, although a Republican majority in both houses is essential to ensure retention of the subpoena and oversight powers).

Anyway, thanx, PFW, for answering the leftist morons. I simply don't have time to do so, and you are able to be at least halfway civil with the lefties.

I am rapidly losing patience with these fools.
 

PrayingForWar

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Thanks, PFW, for responding to a few folks I have put on "ignore".

One thing I absolutely adore about Mr. Cain is that if you ask him the time, he will not take an hour to give you instructions on how to make a watch. You can count on Cain for a straight answer to a straight question every time.

I especially admire his attitude about "racial injustice". He acknowledges that it existed and to some extent still does. But he's smart enough to realize that Democrat policies are designed to promote, not ameliorate, racial strife; and that this race-baiting is done purely for cynical anticipation of "divide and conquer" political gain.

As to Cain's pronouncement that gun control is a "state issue", it dovetails quite nicely with I95's observation (on another thread) that Federally-mandated reciprocity would be a violation of the 9th and 10th Amendments (as well as an end-run around the 2nd Amendment).

Herman Cain is fine with me for President. But let us not forget, the Congress has far more power. As much as we all want to be shut of Obama, it will do none of us any good if we end up with President Mister Ideal Conservative and enough damn pinkos to obstruct every effort he (or she - forget not Palin and Bachman -) makes to right the Ship of State. To set things right, we need to do our best to see to it that the House is retained [and thank you, Congressman here's - a - picture -of -my Wiener] and that the Senate has a filibuster-proof, veto proof majority of the right kind of folks (not necessarily Republicans, although a Republican majority in both houses is essential to ensure retention of the subpoena and oversight powers).

Anyway, thanx, PFW, for answering the leftist morons. I simply don't have time to do so, and you are able to be at least halfway civil with the lefties.

I am rapidly losing patience with these fools.


You're most certainly right on the money here. Getting the fruitbats out of the congressional attic is at least if not more important than the moonbat in the white house attic. I strongly agree with you that just being a "republican" isn't enough. Snowe, Collins, McCain are just a few of the RINO's at the top of my head who need to be unemployed at the very least. We'll never get rid of all the liberals though, some people are just born retarded, what can I say? Perhaps some day they'll abort themselves out of existence.


BTW, at what point did you see "civility"??? I was trying to be as insulting and condescending as possible.

I shall double down on my efforts.
 

Gunslinger

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Thanks, PFW, for responding to a few folks I have put on "ignore".


As to Cain's pronouncement that gun control is a "state issue", it dovetails quite nicely with I95's observation (on another thread) that Federally-mandated reciprocity would be a violation of the 9th and 10th Amendments (as well as an end-run around the 2nd Amendment).

.

Federally mandated reciprocity would be permitted under the Privileges and Immunities Clause as well as Full Faith and Credit, depending on how it was worded and introduced. It is 'completely' constitutional just as state recognition of out of state driver's licenses and other credentials is. Some don't like it for State's Rights reasons, but I think it would be a great step forward for freedom in this country. Lawsuits under the P&I clause have, to date, not been very successful. We need Congress to make it happen.
 

eye95

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...it would be a great step forward for freedom in this country...We need Congress to make it happen.

This, in a nutshell, is why the argument fails. Congress does not make freedom happen. Their actions, by nature, restrict freedom more than they promote it.

It is shamefully inconsistent that folks who purport to love Liberty, look to government as the source for it.
 

Gunslinger

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This, in a nutshell, is why the argument fails. Congress does not make freedom happen. Their actions, by nature, restrict freedom more than they promote it.

It is shamefully inconsistent that folks who purport to love Liberty, look to government as the source for it.

Libertarian thought that anything government does, beyond purely enumerated powers, must be evil is irrational. Real Politik exists, whether you like it philosophically or not. We have had this discussion before, and I have said I respect your opinion and treated it as such. However, as a Constitutionalist, anything within the purview of the Constitution--including interpretative clauses like FF&C or P&I that advances 'individual freedom' is acceptable. Is it perfect? Hell no, what is, in reality? But for me to carry my pistol where I choose within the PDRs and Gulags that currently snear at the concept of the "right of the people" through any means, even Congressional action, is a victory.
 
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PrayingForWar

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Libertarian thought that anything government does, beyond purely enumerated powers, must be evil is irrational. Real Politik exists, whether you like it philosophically or not. We have had this discussion before, and I have said I respect your opinion and treated it as such. However, as a Constitutionalist, anything within the purview of the Constitution--including interpretative clauses like FF&C or P&I that advances 'individual freedom' is acceptable. Is it perfect? Hell no, what is, in reality? But for me to carry my pistol where I choose within the PDRs and Gulags that currently snear at the concept of the "right of the people" through any means, even Congressional action, is a victory.

I would say anything the feds do should be regarded with the strictest scrutiny when it comes to flexing it's powers over the states. I don't believe it's a bad thing if I can take my pistol with me to NY, with my TX license. I don't think it's a bad thing for the feds to prevent a state from forcing minorities to use substandard facilities, or preventing them from voting.

However the feds usually overstep their boundaries any chance they can. When they begin involving themselves in state reciprocity, the next thing you know they will be dictating the standards used to obtain the state licenses, fees, etc. Before you know it, the feds will have a "may issue" system, with $1000 non-refundable yearly application fees. Eye95 is correct in his opposition IMO, as much as I hate to say it.
 

Gunslinger

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I would say anything the feds do should be regarded with the strictest scrutiny when it comes to flexing it's powers over the states. I don't believe it's a bad thing if I can take my pistol with me to NY, with my TX license. I don't think it's a bad thing for the feds to prevent a state from forcing minorities to use substandard facilities, or preventing them from voting.

However the feds usually overstep their boundaries any chance they can. When they begin involving themselves in state reciprocity, the next thing you know they will be dictating the standards used to obtain the state licenses, fees, etc. Before you know it, the feds will have a "may issue" system, with $1000 non-refundable yearly application fees. Eye95 is correct in his opposition IMO, as much as I hate to say it.

It is a path frought with danger of the Feds ******* it up, no question. The simple path is to invoke P&I through the SC, which automatically incorporates reciprocity. The politicians and bureaucrats stay the hell out of it that way. I just can't see it happening, though. It is a lesser of evils, eye and PFW are correct in that history seems to indicate we need to oppose Congress doing it, but I still see a greater good potential--IF well managed by Constitutionalists in Congress. The bill has been written and is in the House. I guess we'll see what happens. It will need a super majority of 60 in the Senate, probably. It didn't miss by much last time--2 votes.
 
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eye95

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I see no logical link between an action being licensed in one State being forced to be accepted by another and the P&I clause. The courts have ruled that the clause applies to rights that are "in their nature, fundamental; which belong, of right, to the citizens of all free governments; and which have, at all times, been enjoyed by the citizens of the several states which compose this Union, from the time of their becoming free, independent, and sovereign."

That which is licensed is, by definition, not such a right as described above.

The P&I clause exists so that one State may not allow all of its citizens free exercise of religion, but deny such to citizens of another State. There is no logical argument by which this clause can used by the feds to insert themselves into the recognition by one State of another State's licenses.

One might argue that it should not be licensed, but freely allowed, in which case the P&I clause would apply, but reciprocity of licenses would be moot. However, once you accept that the act may be licensed, you are agreeing that the act is not a right under the P&I clause. So, either the P&I clause is either moot or not applicable. You can't have it both ways.
 
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KBCraig

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I don't believe it's a bad thing if I can take my pistol with me to NY, with my TX license.
I believe it's a bad thing that any state requires the license in the first place.

You've accepted that licensing is an okay way to violate the enumerated powers of government, so now you're rationalizing ways to fine-tune the violation to make it more palatable.

It's much easier to understand if you aren't focused on rearranging the deck chairs. Go back to first principles: a limited government of enumerated powers. There is no pressing governmental need regarding carrying firearms, that justifies exceeding its permitted powers.

The Second has always applied to the several states (unlike the First, it's not limited to "Congress shall make no law..."; it applies to all levels of government when it states the right of the people shall not be infringed (period)). Unfortunately, SCOTUS never ruled that way before McDonald, and under both Heller and McDonald their dicta indicates support for "reasonable" restrictions in future cases.
 

eye95

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I believe it's a bad thing that any state requires the license in the first place.

You've accepted that licensing is an okay way to violate the enumerated powers of government, so now you're rationalizing ways to fine-tune the violation to make it more palatable...

That's it in a nutshell.
 

Gunslinger

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I see no logical link between an action being licensed in one State being forced to be accepted by another and the P&I clause. The courts have ruled that the clause applies to rights that are "in their nature, fundamental; which belong, of right, to the citizens of all free governments; and which have, at all times, been enjoyed by the citizens of the several states which compose this Union, from the time of their becoming free, independent, and sovereign."

That which is licensed is, by definition, not such a right as described above.

The P&I clause exists so that one State may not allow all of its citizens free exercise of religion, but deny such to citizens of another State. There is no logical argument by which this clause can used by the feds to insert themselves into the recognition by one State of another State's licenses.

One might argue that it should not be licensed, but freely allowed, in which case the P&I clause would apply, but reciprocity of licenses would be moot. However, once you accept that the act may be licensed, you are agreeing that the act is not a right under the P&I clause. So, either the P&I clause is either moot or not applicable. You can't have it both ways.

Driver's Licenses are accepted in all states. The P&I Clause is why. CCWs would be no different. Your statement inter alia proves my point. The courts have traditionally ruled CC is the province of the States. This would be a change via a road less traveled, but still with standing in other areas. You're the one who is so opposed to Congress passing a recip law. I'm surprised you are against this, as well. What is your (realistic, not pipe dreaming) alternative?

The Congress shall have power to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper to secure to the citizens of each state all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states....

"Rights" are not mentioned, nor what is referred to. "Privileges" are. As the courts have held CC is a "privilege," as opposed to RKBA, the clause is perfect.
 
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since9

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Federally mandated reciprocity would be permitted under the Privileges and Immunities Clause as well as Full Faith and Credit, depending on how it was worded and introduced. It is 'completely' constitutional just as state recognition of out of state driver's licenses and other credentials is. Some don't like it for State's Rights reasons, but I think it would be a great step forward for freedom in this country.

+1

I'm usually quite good at following other people's arguments. To date, however, I haven't seen a single salient argument to contrary. Keep trying, though -- you may yet come up with a valid reason as to why this is a bad idea. If so, I'd rather hear it now than mutter an "oops" later.

In the meantime, I like gunslinger's argument with respect to reciprocity for drivers' licenses, with the caveat that the 2nd Amendment SHOULD have been all the license anyone needs, anywhere in the U.S. to "keep and bear arms." That is, after all, what it says.
 
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