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Thread: SSA2 for SB93. This is what they will be voting on Tuesday 6/14.

  1. #1
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    SSA2 for SB93. This is what they will be voting on Tuesday 6/14.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201.../ssa2_sb93.pdf

    I haven't read it yet, I just got it.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 06-13-2011 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Added link to PDF file.

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    There is also an amendment to SSA2-SB93

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...sb93/ssa2_sb93

    I haven't read it yet, I just got it.
    Amendment SA1-SSA2-SB93. But it appears to be housekeeping/fiscal details.

  3. #3
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    From what I understand, there are multiple amendments going to be offered to SSA2. Some good, some terrible. We need to keep on our toes.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    I changed the link in the 1st post to point to the PDF instead of the other crap.

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    Regular Member ckmorley's Avatar
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    What was changed ??????
    Anti-gunners tell us to run away from muggers. What about those of us who can't run ?

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    I have not read it yet but first.

    Paul, I want to say Thank You for all that you do to keep us informed.

  7. #7
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Paul, I want to say Thank You for all that you do to keep us informed.
    No problem! I am hoping to post a recap sometime between 6 and 7 tonight after I sit down with it for a while.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    After a quick read of all 60 pages... I am thinking we still have to wait until the "The first day of the 4th month beginning after publication"... to be able to carry loaded in a vehicle...which I do not think is listed in the "except as follows" sections.....

    Pg. 60....

    SECTION 101.0

    Effective dates. This act takes effect on the first day of the 4th month beginning after publication, except as follows:

    (1) The treatment of sections 66.0409 (6), 165.25 (12), 175.49 (4), 175.60 (2m)
    and (5), and 947.01 (2) of the statutes and SECTION 100 (1) and (2) of this act take effecton the day after publication.
    End

    I hope after someone smarter than me (Paul) is able to study in detail I can be proven wrong...

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 06-13-2011 at 05:44 PM.
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  9. #9
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Sixty pages, huh? This bill was 19 pages long originally. See what happens when crap gets added to it? Smaller government, right?
    A. Gold

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  10. #10
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    60 pages in the pdf file Paul linked to...

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

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  11. #11
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    OK, here's my interpretation. Don't forget, I'm not a lawyer and this advice is worth what you paid me for it:

    167.31 - car carry of handgun is allowed, discharge of a handgun from a vehicle is allowed if in self-defense.
    941.23 - concealed - permit only
    948.605 - GFSZ - On school grounds is a class I felony. From border to 1000' without permit is a class b forfeiture. Still refers to the Federal GFSZ for the case, which is unloaded, encased, locked.
    941.235 - public buildings - if licensed.
    941.237 - Alcohol - if licensed and not drinking.
    29.089 - State parks - if licensed.
    66.0409 - preemption - Add preemption of discharge of a weapon if in self defense.

    In no case do I see a requirement to conceal at any of the locations, so the permit is not just a conceal carry permit but conceal or open carry in 'special' places.

    Requirement for reciprocity is that the issuing state either requires background checks or allows background checks and the person who got the permit got a background check (kinda wacky!) Out of state licenses are not honored as licenses by WI for WI residents.

    Training:

    (4) TRAINING REQUIREMENTS. (a) The proof of training requirement under sub.
    (7) (e) may be met by any of the following:
    1. A copy of a document, or an affidavit from an instructor or organization that
    conducted the course or program, that indicates the individual completed any of the
    following:
    a. The hunter education program established under s. 29.591 or a substantially
    similar program that is established by another state, country, or province and that
    is recognized by the department of natural resources.
    b. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a national or state
    organization that certifies firearms instructors.
    c. A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is
    offered by a law enforcement agency or, if the course is taught by an instructor who
    is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or
    by the department, by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public
    institution or organization, or a firearms training school.
    d. A firearms safety or training course that is offered to law enforcement
    officers or to owners and employees of licensed private detective and security
    agencies.
    e. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms
    instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms
    instructors or who is certified by the department.
    2. Documentation that the individual completed military, law enforcement, or security training that gave
    the individual experience with firearms that is substantially equivalent to a course
    or program under subd. 1.
    3. A current or expired license, or a photocopy of a current or expired license,
    that the individual holds or has held that indicates that the individual is licensed or
    has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or in another state or in a county
    or municipality of this state or of another state unless the license has been revoked
    for cause.
    4. Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in the
    U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard as demonstrated by an honorable
    discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions or a certificate of
    completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small
    arms training and certification.
    (b) 1. The department shall certify instructors for the purposes of par. (a) 1. c.
    and e. and shall maintain a list of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the
    department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the following criteria:
    a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed weapon.
    b. Be able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge required for providing
    firearms safety and training.
    2. The department may not require firing live ammunition to meet the training
    requirements under par. (a).
    Please feel free to ask questions and I'll answer if I can.

    Don't forget, there are amendments to this that are going to be considered tomorrow so this is not locked in stone.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 06-14-2011 at 08:38 PM. Reason: Fixed training requirement post passage in the Senate.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Paul....

    I am thinking we still have to wait until the "The first day of the 4th month beginning after publication"... to be able to carry loaded in a vehicle...which I do not think is listed in the "except as follows" sections.....

    Pg. 60....


    SECTION 101.0

    Effective dates. This act takes effect on the first day of the 4th month beginning after publication, except as follows:

    (1) The treatment of sections 66.0409 (6), 165.25 (12), 175.49 (4), 175.60 (2m)
    and (5), and 947.01 (2) of the statutes and SECTION 100 (1) and (2) of this act take effecton the day after publication.
    End

    I hope after someone smarter than me (Paul) is able to study in detail I can be proven wrong...
    Your thoughts on above and what will take effect "the day after publication"...???

    Thanks

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 06-13-2011 at 07:38 PM.
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  13. #13
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    Paul....



    Your thoughts on above and what will take effect "the day after publication"...???

    Thanks

    Outdoorsman1
    OOPS! Basically allowing out of state LEO to carry concealed, allows DOJ to start their process, makes open and concealed carry not disorderly conduct if there is no other crime.

    I am hoping one of the amendments that will be offered will make the car carry stuff effective immediately as well. We shall see tomorrow.

  14. #14
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I am hoping one of the amendments that will be offered will make the car carry stuff effective immediately as well. We shall see tomorrow.
    As is, I believe the changes to 167.31 will take effect the day after publication becasue they have nothing to do with the license part.

  15. #15
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Is it a boy or a girl?

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    ....Don't forget, there are amendments to this that are going to be considered tomorrow....
    Waiting for these damn amendments is worse than waiting to see if our second child was going to be a boy....
    Dave
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    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

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  16. #16
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    As is, I believe the changes to 167.31 will take effect the day after publication becasue they have nothing to do with the license part.
    Nope

    SECTION 101.0Effective dates. This act takes effect on the first day of the 4th
    month beginning after publication, except as follows:
    (1) The treatment of sections 66.0409 (6), 165.25 (12), 175.49 (4), 175.60 (2m)
    and (5), and 947.01 (2) of the statutes and SECTION 100 (1) and (2) of this act take effect
    on the day after publication.
    (
    66.0409(6) -
    66.0409 (6) Unless other facts and circumstances that indicate a criminal or
    malicious intent on the part of the person apply, no person may be in violation of, or
    be charged with a violation of, an ordinance of a political subdivision relating to
    disorderly conduct or other inappropriate behavior for loading, carrying, or going
    armed with a firearm, without regard to whether the firearm is loaded or is concealed
    or openly carried. Any ordinance in violation of this subsection does not apply and
    may not be enforced.
    165.25 (12) -
    165.25 (12) RULES REGARDING CONCEALED WEAPONS LICENSES. Promulgate by
    rule a list of states that issue a permit, license, approval, or other authorization to
    carry a concealed weapon if the permit, license, approval, or other authorization
    requires, or designates that the holder chose to submit to, a background search that
    is comparable to a background check as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (ac).
    175.49 (4) -
    (4) CERTIFICATION CARDS. (a) 1. Subject to pars. (b), (c), and (d) and sub. (3) (a),
    the department shall design a certification card to be issued by the department under
    sub. (3) (a).
    2. Subject to pars. (b), (c), and (d) and sub. (2) (a), each law enforcement agency,
    upon a request, shall design a certification card to be issued by the law enforcement
    agency under sub. (2) (a).
    (b) A certification card shall contain on one side all of the following:
    1. The full name, date of birth, and residence address of the person who holds
    the certification card.
    2. A photograph of the certification card holder and a physical description that
    includes sex, height, and eye color.
    3. The name of this state.
    (c) A certification card shall include a statement that the certification card does
    not confer any law enforcement authority on the certification card holder and does not make the certification card holder an employee or agent of the certifying agency
    or department.
    (d) A certification card may not contain the certification card holder’s social
    security number.
    175.60 (2m) -
    (2m) LICENSE DOCUMENT; CONTENT OF LICENSE. (a) Subject to pars. (b), (bm), (c),
    and (d), the department shall design a single license document for licenses issued and
    renewed under this section. The department shall complete the design of the license
    document no later than the first day of the 2nd month beginning after the effective
    date of this paragraph .... [LRB inserts date].
    (b) A license document for a license issued under this section shall contain all
    of the following on one side:
    1. The full name, date of birth, and residence address of the licensee.
    2. A physical description of the licensee, including sex, height, and eye color.
    3. The date on which the license was issued.
    4. The date on which the license expires.
    5. The name of this state.
    6. A unique identification number for each licensee.
    (bm) The reverse side of a license document issued under this section shall
    contain the requirement under sub. (11) (b) that the licensee shall inform the
    department of any address change no later than 30 days after his or her address
    changes and the penalty for a violation of the requirement.
    (c) The license document may not contain the licensee’s social security number.
    (d) 1. The contents of the license document shall be included in the document
    in substantially the same way that the contents of an operator’s license document
    issued under s. 343.17 are included in that document.
    2. The license document issued under this section shall be tamper proof in
    substantially the same way that the operator’s license is tamper proof under s.
    343.17 (2).
    (e) The department of justice may contract with the department of
    transportation to produce and issue license documents under this section. Neither
    the department of transportation nor any employee of the department of
    transportation may store, maintain, or access the information provided by the
    department of justice for the production or issuance of license documents other than
    to the extent necessary to produce or issue the license documents.
    175.60 (5) -
    (5) APPLICATION AND RENEWAL FORMS. (a) The department shall design an
    application form for use by individuals who apply for a license under this section and
    a renewal form for use by individuals applying for renewal of a license under sub.
    (15). The department shall complete the design of the application form no later than
    the first day of the 2nd month beginning after the effective date of this paragraph ....
    [LRB inserts date], and shall complete the design of the renewal form no later than
    the first day of the 36th month beginning after the effective date of this paragraph
    .... [LRB inserts date]. The forms shall require the applicant to provide only his or
    her name, address, date of birth, state identification card number, race, sex, height,
    and eye color and shall include all of the following:
    1. A statement that the applicant is ineligible for a license if sub. (3) (a), (b), (c),
    (d), (e), (f), or (g) applies to the applicant.
    2. A statement explaining self−defense and defense of others under s. 939.48,
    with a place for the applicant to sign his or her name to indicate that he or she has
    read and understands the statement.
    3. A statement, with a place for the applicant to sign his or her name, to indicate
    that the applicant has read and understands the requirements of this section.
    4. A statement that an applicant may be prosecuted if he or she intentionally
    gives a false answer to any question on the application or intentionally submits a
    falsified document with the application.
    5. A statement of the penalties for intentionally giving a false answer to any
    question on the application or intentionally submitting a falsified document with the
    application.
    6. A statement of the places under sub. (16) where a licensee is prohibited from
    carrying a weapon, as well as an explanation of the provisions under sub. (15m) and
    ss. 943.13 (1m) (c) and 948.605 (2) (b) 1r. that could limit the places where the licensee
    may carry a weapon, with a place for the applicant to sign his or her name to indicate
    that he or she has read and understands the statement.
    (b) The department shall make the forms described in this subsection available
    on the Internet and, upon request, by mail.
    947.01 (2) -
    947.01 (2) Unless other facts and circumstances that indicate a criminal or
    malicious intent on the part of the person apply, a person is not in violation of, and
    may not be charged with a violation of, this section for loading, carrying, or going
    armed with a firearm, without regard to whether the firearm is loaded or is concealed
    or openly carried.

    So.... as of this moment... no car carry for 4 months.

  17. #17
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    I have a very bad feeling about this.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Lets just hope that Wanggaard keeps his scissor beak shut about the extra manditory training he would like, and hopefully this puppy will pass as is. It could surely get a lot worse real fast. It will be nice when we know for sure.

  19. #19
    McX
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    no car carry for 4 months why?
    is this in reference to permit car carry? will we get any other car carry option? or will 'free man' ( no permit) carry still be under unloaded encased blah-blah?

  20. #20
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    no car carry for 4 months why?
    is this in reference to permit car carry? will we get any other car carry option? or will 'free man' ( no permit) carry still be under unloaded encased blah-blah?
    No permit needed for car carry. Still a little fuzzy on the GFSZ without a permit in a car. The reason for 3 months is that the law doesn't take effect for 4 months after the governor signs it.

  21. #21
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    I posted this over on AR15.com WIHTF. I base this on what the Dems griped about last week at the finance committee, and what they tried to put in the last bills in '03 & '05.

    Here's some of the amendments the Dems are sure to offer:

    Lots of additions to "no carry" areas, including sporting events (pro, college, high school), concerts, fairs, festivals (like Milwaukeefest), playgrounds, public parks, day-cares, churches.

    Flip-flop of posting requirements, making all private businesses no-carry unless sign is posted welcoming carry.

    Elimination of "car carry" without permit.

    Increasing training requirements.

    Not decreasing penalty for GFSZ without permit (bill takes away the felony except for school grounds).

    Not allowing carry in GFSZ.

    Putting permit data base in "open records".

    Making cc without permit a felony.

    I don't expect any of the above to pass.


    These below might have a chance at passage:


    Requiring proof of identification and WI residency by requiring copy of drivers license or photo ID in application (surprised that's not in the bill already).

    Mandating that courts notify DOJ of all convictions of domestic battery, which would nullify gun ownership rights of anyone holding permit, so DOJ could revoke permit. Bill requires notification of felony convictions and restraining orders so DOJ can revoke/suspend permits. They'll argue domestic battery convictions should be included in the notifications. I have no counter argument as to why they should not. ?

    The way the bill stands now, reciprocity is granted to all states' permits that require a background check. I'd expect the same training standards as WI residents to be added to reciprocity acceptance.

    Putting a "tag" in DOT database on permit holders DLs and vehicle tags, so LEOs know when they run a plate or DL if there's a permit in hands of driver or vehicle owner. (LEOs want this one badly).

  22. #22
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    no car carry for 4 months why?
    is this in reference to permit car carry? will we get any other car carry option? or will 'free man' ( no permit) carry still be under unloaded encased blah-blah?
    Any loaded car carry might have to wait the 3 months...permit for concealed or open carry loaded without permit.... both will not be legal until the 3 (4) month waiting period is over.

    No permit needed for car carry. Still a little fuzzy on the GFSZ without a permit in a car. The reason for 3 months is that the law doesn't take effect for 4 months after the governor signs it.
    No permit needed for loaded open carry in a car....
    permit needed for concealed car carry...
    both looks like 3 or 4 month wait.......



    I am lucky my computer will not type swear words....

    Outdoorsman1

    PS: I guess I will be foolish enough to still hope this gets changed before the final vote or some how Walker cange change it with his veto pen...???? But I am not holding my breath.
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 06-13-2011 at 10:43 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

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  23. #23
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    I have a very bad feeling about this.
    X1000

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
    Wisconsin C.C.W. License Holder
    Utah State Permit Holder.
    Arizona State Permit Holder.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Grant Guess's Avatar
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    Putting a "tag" in DOT database on permit holders DLs and vehicle tags, so LEOs know when they run a plate or DL if there's a permit in hands of driver or vehicle owner. (LEOs want this one badly).
    Fk this.

    I have yet to imagine WHY a LEO needs to have this information, be it for a traffic stop or whatever. I have asked the Milw PD and the state police assn on FB and none even attempt to answer the question. Imagine that....

    Can anyone here play the devil's advocate and tell me what benefit that a policeman would have by knowing that I am armed when he stops me for whatever reason?

    Now I see TWO databases existing if they slip this through.
    Gun Control Defined: The theory that people who are willing to ignore laws against rape, torture, kidnapping, theft and murder will obey a law which prohibits them from owning or carrying a firearm.

  25. #25
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Nope.
    You are right. I am sorry that my wishful laziness made you do all that work to correct me. (lol)

    So, If it was ammended to include the bold, we would be good then.

    SECTION 101.0Effective dates. This act takes effect on the first day of the 4th
    month beginning after publication, except as follows:
    (1) The treatment of sections 66.0409 (6), 165.25 (12), 167.31 (2) (b), (2) (c), (4) (at), 175.49 (4), 175.60 (2m) and (5), and 947.01 (2) of the statutes and SECTION 100 (1) and (2) of this act take effect
    on the day after publication.


    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    So.... as of this moment... no car carry for 4 months.
    I have to laugh alitlle. It all depends on where you live. I have been OC in my car for more than 9 months. I had an off-duty Sheriff Deputy park next to me, he got out and talked to me through my passanger window. Although, we did talk about the future of CC, my holstered sidearm that was in plain sight was not even discussed. After that, in the same city, a City Officer that had witnessed me get in and out of my car without unholstering just smiled at me. I must say, it is good to live in a county right next to Jackson County.

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