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Thread: Iwb oc

  1. #1
    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    Iwb oc

    Somehow today I misplaced my black hawk holster so when I left my place I had no choise but to use my IWB holster. I tucked my shirt in leaving about half of the gun clearly visible and half of he gun concealed. has it ever been discussed on the forum if this would he considered open or concealed carry? As I said about half of the gun visible and half concealed so I could see a argument being made either way.
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    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Around here it's referred to as "the Virginia tuck". Legal here - do not know about in Washington.

    stay safe.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    Somehow today I misplaced my black hawk holster so when I left my place I had no choise but to use my IWB holster. I tucked my shirt in leaving about half of the gun clearly visible and half of he gun concealed. has it ever been discussed on the forum if this would he considered open or concealed carry? As I said about half of the gun visible and half concealed so I could see a argument being made either way.
    A quick look at Washington statues shows...

    o To open-carry in a vehicle (i.e., car, bus, etc...) a person must have a valid concealed pistol license.

    I would assume you are driving during the day. Do you have your CPL from Washington State? If so you're good to go either way.

    o I would not recommend an Uncle Mike's style slippery IWB holster, since the HG can easily pop out if you squat and/or bend, depending on how lean you are and how tight your belt is, and how short your waist is (anatomy around the carry position) in the photo provided.

    If you don't have a Wash. CPL, I would advise not OC-ing that way, though it may not be specifically illegal. I could not find with a quick search the 'definition' of CC in Wash State. There may be one.

    Here's a link on the USAcarry.com forum.

    hth

  4. #4
    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    I do have a cpl so I can legally drive while carrying. I was more curious than anything the definition of conceal carry as I could not find any one definition myself. I always have my cpl so I'm covered either way but was wondering if this would be considered cc or not by law.
    Good eye it is a uncle mikes holster witch you are very correct on. They are not the greatest, the holster is prone to slipping out of your waist and the gun prone to slipping out of the holster it self.
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    I do have a cpl so I can legally drive while carrying. I was more curious than anything the definition of conceal carry as I could not find any one definition myself. I always have my cpl so I'm covered either way but was wondering if this would be considered cc or not by law.
    Good eye it is a uncle mikes holster witch you are very correct on. They are not the greatest, the holster is prone to slipping out of your waist and the gun prone to slipping out of the holster it self.
    I carry IWB often maybe 30% of the time due to comfort and keeps it out of the way of the seat belt etc. I would say it would be considered OC in most states, I consider it OC. If one did not have a CPL an officer might try to make the argument you were concealing but with a CPL in Washington State there should be no problems just as in Virginia it is legal here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    A quick look at Washington statues shows...

    o To open-carry in a vehicle (i.e., car, bus, etc...) a person must have a valid concealed pistol license.

    I would assume you are driving during the day. Do you have your CPL from Washington State? If so you're good to go either way.

    o I would not recommend an Uncle Mike's style slippery IWB holster, since the HG can easily pop out if you squat and/or bend, depending on how lean you are and how tight your belt is, and how short your waist is (anatomy around the carry position) in the photo provided.

    If you don't have a Wash. CPL, I would advise not OC-ing that way, though it may not be specifically illegal. I could not find with a quick search the 'definition' of CC in Wash State. There may be one.

    Here's a link on the USAcarry.com forum.

    hth


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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    I guess the answer to the question "concealed or open" amounts to whether a normal person could clearly recognize what you are carrying is a gun. If it is visible enough to be recognized as a gun, not a cell phone, multi-tool, eyeglass case, etc, then it is an openly carried firearm. Since there is no definition in the Statutes for a Concealed Firearm, then a it falls to how a reasonable person would view it. If it were concealed then nobody would see it, or any part of it, right?
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    Regular Member ARADCOM's Avatar
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    Cool Iwb/owb

    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    Somehow today I misplaced my black hawk holster so when I left my place I had no choise but to use my IWB holster. I tucked my shirt in leaving about half of the gun clearly visible and half of he gun concealed. has it ever been discussed on the forum if this would he considered open or concealed carry? As I said about half of the gun visible and half concealed so I could see a argument being made either way.
    I only have one OWB holster (Blackhawk Serpa) and although I do OC it I find that rig is to large for "everyday" carry. My other two pistols are carried IWB and because they are visible I've always thought I was OC'ing when I carried those. I saw a quote somewhere that I thought covered it:

    Judge- "Officer, how did you know he had a concealed weapon?

    Officer- "I could see it."

    Judge- "Case dismissed."

  9. #9
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    As long as you have your CPL, does it really matter? Both are legal.
    I have also considered open carry is if someone can see any portion of the gun that can be distinguished as it being a gun.
    In your pic, open carry.

    For open carry I prefer and recommend a level 2 security holster for added safety and yes that holster sucks big time.
    Last edited by BigDave; 06-14-2011 at 12:50 PM.
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    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    As long as you have your CPL, does it really matter? Both are legal.
    I have also considered open carry is if someone can see any portion of the gun that can be distinguished as it being a gun.
    In your pic, open carry.

    For open carry I prefer and recommend a level 2 security holster for added safety and yes that holster sucks big time.
    Don't mean anything by this, directed at you, BD, but it's not what you think that's the problem. It's that some LEOs can twist this 'borderline' situation (their thoughts, not mine) into a means of hassling someone. If one can find a clear 'law' or something then they can feel a mite safer.

    Lots of OC methods make the gun more-or-less visible (tighter to the body, same colored garments, body shape).

    If a guy with a huge gut is OC, but the HG is obscured by a roll of fat, is that concealed? LOL, I really don't know, and it points out 'why should it matter'?

    $.02

  11. #11
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    BJ It is not what I think, it is the law, open and concealed carry are legal as long as you have a CPL in Washington State. Concealed Carry has always been concealed from sight and if only a small portion is exposed it is not considered concealed and the opposite of concealed is, open carry.

    If one was to conceal carry and reached for a product on the top shelf or bent down to pick something up and the gun was exposed, still legal as long as you have a CPL.

    The only exception to my knowledge is if one was concealed carrying and exposed it to someone to intimidate them, then they are in big time trouble.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    The term Concealed is not defined in RCW 9.41.01 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010)

    Therefore, I would fall back to the Legal Dictionary definition.(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/concealed)
    Code:
    Main Entry: con·ceal 
    Function: transitive verb 
    1 :  to prevent disclosure of or fail to disclose (as a provision in a contract) esp. in violation of a duty to disclose 
    
    2 a :  to place out of sight 
    
    NOTE: A weapon need only be placed out of ordinary observation in order to be considered a concealed weapon. b :  to prevent or hinder recognition, discovery, or recovery of < conceal ing  stolen property> — con·ceal·ment noun

  13. #13
    Regular Member LibertyDeath's Avatar
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    For the most part a holstered gun has just as much exposed "gun" regardless of whether its IWB or not. You can still tell there is a gun on you.

  14. #14
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I don't carry a cpl when I carry my gun, I am always OC'ing. So it would be of some interest to me if I carried in IWB holster. I don't need a permission slip to bear arms.

    The link is broken but uncoolperson had posted a video of a lawyer talking about how OC is legal and there is nothing the city can do about it. The case was because the police had arrested someone for having only a portion of their gun exposed when they were CC'ing and took their jacket off, while at a park. The holster the guy was wearing was similar to the OP's if I am not mistaken. And the city's lawyer considered it OC, and not concealed.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    This has been discussed before, I asked just that because thats how I carry. I was told if someone ask's about your firearm then it's obvious that it is open carry. Least thats what someone told me.

    I carry IWB. I was ecstatic when I found OCDO, because it is good to know I could take my jacket off without recourse, and that I didnt have to care what anyone thought. I mostly wear button up shirts that are a little baggy on the sides and I carry my CPL in case the shirt covers my firearm. For the most part, I know people see my firearm, because I am constantly tucking my shirt back in where it comes loose on the sides, and I have a stainless slide.
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    The problem is with the way some people, esp LEOs phrase it.

    'For the most part'...'for all intents and purposes'...

    Though they can see part of the HG, they can assert you were intending to CC and therefore you must have a permit. How do you fight this obvious ridiculous comment?

    For an experienced HG user, a small amount of handle showing is a clear tell. For a non gun user, not so clear. To a LEO, he can assert 'it's not enough concealing'. How do you object and how do you make your intent clear?

    'You intended to conceal it' - LEO
    'nope' - you
    'ya-huh' - LEO
    uh-uh - you

    So you end up arrested and let the judge sort it out. Stupid and unnecessary but happens all the time.

  17. #17
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    I have much less gun showing with either of my holsters. My Colt holster covers everything but the butt of the handle, and my CZ holster covers even more, and I wear them open on my hip. It is not easy to conceal a 6" Colt Revolver, or a full sized CZ so I have never even tried. (I have a CZ52 and a CZ85) Really good retention, full cover flap.

    You can plainly tell they are both nice leather holsters, but it is not plainly visible that the holster has a weapon in it or not.

    Is that OC or CC? Really don't care, I have a CPL and can carry either way. If I was visiting my daughter in TX I might care, but not here in WA. I have never had a LEO complain, or even question me about it in 40+ years.

  18. #18
    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    Every once and a while I still like using a IWB holster can anyone suggest a good one
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

  19. #19
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    The problem is with the way some people, esp LEOs phrase it.

    'For the most part'...'for all intents and purposes'...

    Though they can see part of the HG, they can assert you were intending to CC and therefore you must have a permit. How do you fight this obvious ridiculous comment?

    For an experienced HG user, a small amount of handle showing is a clear tell. For a non gun user, not so clear. To a LEO, he can assert 'it's not enough concealing'. How do you object and how do you make your intent clear?

    'You intended to conceal it' - LEO
    'nope' - you
    'ya-huh' - LEO
    uh-uh - you

    So you end up arrested and let the judge sort it out. Stupid and unnecessary but happens all the time.
    I agree, but this isn't how our legal system is supposed to be based. If the law isn't clear the benefit of the doubt is supposed to go to the civilian. We need to force our public servants to start thinking this way again.

    I am not going to live in fear of what some rogue cop or prosecutor is going to charge or think.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    Every once and a while I still like using a IWB holster can anyone suggest a good one
    crossbreed supertuck is what I use. I have several and none more comfortable than the crossbreed.

    kenzmad

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    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    Every once and a while I still like using a IWB holster can anyone suggest a good one
    Comp-Tac Minotaur MTAC
    http://www.comp-tac.com/catalog/prod...products_id=95

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    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    I've here of crossbreed, you can tuck your shirt in with that one and still conceal right?
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

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    Regular Member GuidoZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hardin View Post
    I 2nd that one. I was wearing it just today - surprisingly comfortable and allows complete concealment if you so desire. You can tuck your shirt in between the clips and everything else, so all that is showing is the clips. (See pics below.) Both the CrossBreed and the Comp-Tac work great, and are nearly identical in function. I've heard the CrossBreed is very comfortable, but I personally didn't like the emblems on it, so I went with the Minotaur. Works great, LOVE the ability to get separate Kydex bodies for different guns, allowing you to not have to buy a bunch of holsters just to carry different weapons. It's fine comfort wise as well. Many that have the CrossBreed speak about a special cut ("Combat Cut" - it's even offered as a factory mod if you so desire) that reduces the amount of leather, making it less comfortable, but easier to draw. The Comp-Tac looks almost identical to the CrossBreed, post-mod.

    Here's a few pictures of mine, taken seconds ago. Current body is for the HG listed in my sig:

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    I frequently wear khaki cargos, so I got the clips that match. You can pick from a number of colors for both the clips and the leather. You can also splurge and get the clips that don't go over the belt at all ("C" I believe, while these are "J" clips.)

    ::EDIT:: Forgot to mention, you can easily adjust the cant and such for your personal preference. Just make sure you order the correct body side (left/right)!

    --
    Peace. ~G
    Last edited by GuidoZ; 06-16-2011 at 04:31 AM. Reason: See red above
    Carry weapon: SA XDm .40 SC + 11rd Ranger SXT 180gr

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I agree, but this isn't how our legal system is supposed to be based. If the law isn't clear the benefit of the doubt is supposed to go to the civilian. We need to force our public servants to start thinking this way again.

    I am not going to live in fear of what some rogue cop or prosecutor is going to charge or think.
    1 - when there is doubt about what the law means, the proper thing to do is look at what the courts have previously decided it means. That's "case law" for the one or two who never heard the term before. There is no "If the law isn't clear the benefit of the doubt is supposed to go to the civilian" in the legal system, just what the law says plus what the courts say the law says. (BTW - when in court you are called a defendant, not a civilian. :>) )

    2 - If we are going to force our everybody towards any specific way of thinking, might I suggest that we start with eliminating the completely false notion of "civilian" vs. "any-other-category-you-want-to-claim-to-be"? Unless you are in the military, you are a civilian. Cops are merely folks we have hired to enforce the laws for us so we can spend more time doing other stuff, and legislators are folks we have hired to write laws and set taxes because we are too lazy to do much except complain about what they have done to us. Cops are marginally easier to get fired when their behavior becomes intolerablly illegal.

    Please pick up your certificates on the way out. This lecture qualifies for three (3) of the four (4) credits you need to fulfill your Knowledge of Civics class requirement.

    stay safe.

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    1 - when there is doubt about what the law means, the proper thing to do is look at what the courts have previously decided it means. That's "case law" for the one or two who never heard the term before. There is no "If the law isn't clear the benefit of the doubt is supposed to go to the civilian" in the legal system, just what the law says plus what the courts say the law says. (BTW - when in court you are called a defendant, not a civilian. :>) )

    2 - If we are going to force our everybody towards any specific way of thinking, might I suggest that we start with eliminating the completely false notion of "civilian" vs. "any-other-category-you-want-to-claim-to-be"? Unless you are in the military, you are a civilian. Cops are merely folks we have hired to enforce the laws for us so we can spend more time doing other stuff, and legislators are folks we have hired to write laws and set taxes because we are too lazy to do much except complain about what they have done to us. Cops are marginally easier to get fired when their behavior becomes intolerablly illegal.

    Please pick up your certificates on the way out. This lecture qualifies for three (3) of the four (4) credits you need to fulfill your Knowledge of Civics class requirement.

    stay safe.
    Good post Skid and I agree with the definition of civilian you provide, and use it sarcastically, to make a point in certain scenarios. Unfortunately we seem to have many in "authority" who feel differently.

    There are plenty of case law I don't trust either. Our legal system is supposed to be clear and concise. It is supposed to restrict the government over the governed. Sayings like "ignorance is no excuse" is very very bad, ignorance is an excuse. Allowing police and prosecutors and judges to stretch laws to cover innocent actions of other "civilians" is very anti liberty and immoral. When in doubt the "perp" shouldn't even be brought to court.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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