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Thread: Breaking News on Operation Fast & Furious

  1. #1
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    Breaking News on Operation Fast & Furious

    I linked the video over at my blog.

    http://monachuslex.com/?p=14

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Someone better do some prison time over this.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I'm sure that no good deed will go unpunished...

    If the BATFE wistleblowers don't end up in shallow graves, or in mysterious fiery car crashes, and somehow manage to survive these hearings, they will be blackballed in the LE community for the rest of their lives, and will have their careers, reputations and lives ruined.

    The people on top of the command chain will most likely be given transfers out of the BATFE, and reshuffled into National Security positions with DHS, US-DOJ, and CIA.

    No good deed will go unpunished, and no violation will go unrewarded in this scandal.

    Meet your New Bosses, same as the old bosses...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-14-2011 at 05:44 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Easy Eric

    Holder will continue the contemptuous song and dance routine to cover for the rouge ATF boys and continued refusal to cooperate will be their SOP. If anything happens, it will likely be promotions of the top dogs in this sorted affair and I will be surprised is anyone in a position of responsibility will held accountable.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    And I reiterate, that we should all watch the news on this one for the next year or so... Don't be surprised if many of the "whistle blowers" are victims of mysterious automobile or boating accidents, die of previously undiagnosed heart conditions, or are killed in strange violent robberies where nothing is taken.

    Don't be surprised if several of these folks end up like Suzanne Coleman, Vince Foster, Barry Seal, and William Colby...

    Its the "Chicago Way", after all...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOvH-7lcjb0
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Thanks for this Admin.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Here's a written article, same subject. Easier to reference.

    My hat's off to the gents who're standing up to testify against the BATF in general. Heaven help them.

    I don't think their employment opportunities are all that gloomy, however. The BATF isn't well liked throughout many segments of society.
    Last edited by since9; 06-15-2011 at 07:15 PM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    This is what is called the "Fearless Fosdick" method of crime fighting.

    "Fearless Fosdick" was a cartoon detective created by Al Capp. One of his most famous assignments was to thwart a villain who had planted a can of poisoned beans in the supermarket. His boss told him to make sure no one ate those beans.

    So, whenever he saw someone about to eat some beans, he shot them dead.



    Well, at least we know now how the Mexxican drug cartels got all those American guns in the first place. This is too much even for a lot of liberal Democrats. And this is one screw-up they can't possibly lay at Dubya's door.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    Well, at least we know now how the Mexxican drug cartels got all those American guns in the first place. This is too much even for a lot of liberal Democrats. And this is one screw-up they can't possibly lay at Dubya's door.
    *GASP!* You mean Obama and the BATF are actually capable of a mistake in their own right???

    I've noticed Obama has yet to poke a toe into this cesspool. Not with an election "just" a year and a half away.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    [snip]This is too much even for a lot of liberal Democrats. And this is one screw-up they can't possibly lay at Dubya's door.
    Yes, Liberals can. *clears throat* It's Bush's fault. There.

    In all seriousness, there does need to be an investigation, not an 'investigation', so that we can get to the bottom of this. The War on Drugs is a waste of money, IMO.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 06-16-2011 at 01:07 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  11. #11
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    It seems to me that Fast and Furious was nothing more than an operation designed to put more high powered weapons from American gun stores into Mexican criminals hands to create more support for greater restrictions on those weapons in this country.

    I'm guessing that the planners of the operation had no idea that the "time to crime" would be so short or that their operation would be made public. No, they were counting on secrecy and then the increasing traces of US sold guns used n Mexican crimes in order to justify another round of federal restrictions.

    I come to this conclusion because no one....NO ONE, not even Holder....could be so stupid as to think that what they were doing was going to do anything but put weapons across the border with no possibility of keeping track of them.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
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    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    A lot of lawmakers are coming to the same conclusion. Holder HAD to know about this, the question of course being what did he know and when (and if he didn't, then why didn't he?).

    This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. Somewhere in the high reaches of the BATFE bureaucracy exists a man whose responsibility would have been to ask if someone was NUTS and put the kibosh on this nonsense.

    Applying Occam's Razor, the ONLY explanation for this is a DELIBERATE attempt to gin up support for severe anti-gun measures. The argle-bargle offered up during the Congressional inquest into this deadly farce only points all the more toward that solution.

    At a minimum, the House Oversight Committee needs to immediately draw up Articles of Impeachment for Eric Holder, Janet Neopalitano, FBI Director Mueller and whoever it is who is the clown running BATFE. And during the House part of the proceedings, the role of the Head Nincompoop In Charge should be examined. Thoroughly.

    And after impeachment proceedings are successful, criminal charges (quite possibly including treason) should be brought. And a special bill should be passed to specify hanging by the neck until dead as the method of execution for treason, starting with these vile miscreants.

    The entire Executive Branch is absolutely raddled with nincompoops, malcontents, and traitors; borderline and otherwise. November 2012 may be too late. This is a cancer and it must be removed.

    But, as I say, according to the LAW, the law these people have little knowledge of and NO respect for what they do. (I'd go into a rant about the War Powers Act, but that's a subject for a different forum).

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. Somewhere in the high reaches of the BATFE bureaucracy exists a man whose responsibility would have been to ask if someone was NUTS and put the kibosh on this nonsense.
    I have absolutely no doubt someone (if not most of them) in the higher reaches knew about this long before it happened. Had any of those individuals been rational, intelligent, thinking human beings, they most certainly would have put the kibosh on this nonsense.

    That none of them put the kibosh on the nonsense raises the question of which, or which combination, of qualifications are missing among the higher ups within the BATF? Is it rationality? Intelligence? The ability to think? Some combination thereof?

    Applying Occam's Razor, the ONLY explanation for this is a DELIBERATE attempt to gin up support for severe anti-gun measures.
    While the support aspect may very well be either an ancillary, a principle, or the only reason behind this debacle, another explanation is that the only ones who rise through the ranks of the BATF are those who've swallowed their "we're saving America by disarming everyone" mantra, hook line and sinker. As such, they may very well be intelligent, but they're not able to think well, nor do so rationally. Thus, their one-legged brains fall into pulling stupid stunts like Operation Fast and Furious.

    The argle-bargle offered up during the Congressional inquest into this deadly farce only points all the more toward that solution.
    I watched parts of it. It points to my theory of irrational group-think as well.

    At a minimum, the House Oversight Committee needs to immediately draw up Articles of Impeachment for Eric Holder, Janet Neopalitano, FBI Director Mueller and whoever it is who is the clown running BATFE.
    Clowns, and they would be ATF Acting Director Kenneth E. Melson and ATF Acting Deputy Director William J. Hoover. The agency's hell-bent stance against 2A rights isn't surprising, given the fact "Mr. Melson has been an adjunct professor at The George Washington University for over 30 years."

    I've known exceedingly few (just four) university professors who openly supported 2A rights. At my own alma mater, Virginia Tech, such supporters included a professor in aerospace engineering who was a former USAF fighter pilot in Korea and Vietnam conflicts, an American History professor who served in the Army during the same two conflicts, a gentleman with a doctorate in Physical Education who served in Vietnam, and a mechanical engineering professor who served in WWII and Korea.

    There seems to be a common thread, here...

    Many (dozens) of my professors, however, were openly against 2A rights.

    And during the House part of the proceedings, the role of the Head Nincompoop In Charge should be examined. Thoroughly.

    And after impeachment proceedings are successful, criminal charges (quite possibly including treason) should be brought.
    Their actions wouldn't pass the Constitution's narrow definition of treason. Given their anti-Constitutional efforts, I do not agree either should be allowed to collect a penny of retirement, however.

    The entire Executive Branch is absolutely raddled with nincompoops, malcontents, and traitors; borderline and otherwise. November 2012 may be too late. This is a cancer and it must be removed.
    I was thumbing through my father's copy of Obama's book, "Change We Can Believe In." I love the following two points in the reviews:

    "'Like Bill Clinton, he has the knack of weaving together the personal and the anecdotal with the political and the conceptual, so that each point seems both persuasive and commonsensical.' Guardian"

    The key word there is "seems." Obama is a master at pulling the wool over people's eyes.

    "The election of Barack Obama as President of the United States is a defining moment in American history."

    Provided the event is defining failure at a national level, I agree with this statement 100%.

    Back to the OP...

    But, as I say, according to the LAW, the law these people have little knowledge of and NO respect for what they do.
    Agreed.

    I'd go into a rant about the War Powers Act, but that's a subject for a different forum.
    Perhaps, although both fall into the "abuse of authority" category. The only cure is to:

    A. Know the law. This begins with the law of the land, our U.S. Constitution and its amendments.

    B. Follow the law.

    Whether or not either of the top two gents in the BATFE meet the first criterion, they most certainly have violated the second.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    You should note, since9, that my statement about little knowledge of the law and no respect for what they do is taken from the HBO movie "Conspiracy: The Wannsee Conference". The line was spoken by Dr. Kritzinger and was directed at the SS in attendance.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Today the Washington Post featured an editorial stating that this cluster fest need not have occurred ..... IF ONLY THE BATFE HAD MORE MONEY AND MORE SWEEPING POWERS.

    Meamwhile the Special Agent who blew the whistle on this mess has had some four-year-old items dug out of his personnel file to discredit him and justify his dismissal.

    And "Acting Director" Melson has been "invited" to testify before Congress, but the DOJ is refusing to authorize it.

    Subpoena? Huh? Anybody on the hill know what a subpoena is???

  16. #16
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Completion of Kritzinger quote above:

    "To these men laws are like ice cream: easily melted."

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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    ...And "Acting Director" Melson has been "invited" to testify before Congress, but the DOJ is refusing to authorize it.

    Subpoena? Huh? Anybody on the hill know what a subpoena is???
    DOJ is a department of the Executive branch of government. Under the "Separation of Powers" doctrine, they can ignore a Congressional supoena. Doesn't make it right, pretty much undermines the idea of "checks and balances", but it would not be the first, and isn't likely to be the last, time that it's been done.

    Link to show departments under the Executive branch.
    http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Federal/Executive.shtml
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
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    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by We-the-People View Post
    ...pretty much undermines the idea of "checks and balances"...
    Actually, it underlines the doctrine of checks and balances.

    If the Excecutive couldn't place a check on the Legislative, then our system would be out of balance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Actually, it underlines the doctrine of checks and balances.

    If the Excecutive couldn't place a check on the Legislative, then our system would be out of balance.
    And when someone like the DOJ does wrong who is to investigate them if they can simply ignore subpeanas?

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    Congress can completely de-fund their agency. A pretty significant check.

    Even if BATFE would be dismantled it wouldn't really impact our lives. The same philosophy and, in many cases, the same personnel, would simply don the uniform of another agency and do the same thing.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    And when someone like the DOJ does wrong who is to investigate them if they can simply ignore subpeanas?
    There are three co-equal branches of government. Andrew Jackson, Hero/SOB that he was (depending on the issue), was probably the last President to understand this.

    The legendary-yet-unconfirmed Jackson quote, in response to the Supreme Court ruling in Worcester v. Georgia was, "(Chief Justice) John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!"

    The point was (and is), the judiciary can't enforce a damn thing, only the executive can. Neither the executive nor judicial branch can fund anything, only the legislative (specifically, the House of Representatives).

    The executive controls the police mechanism, exclusively (and the military, but only with the authorization of Congress); and, can't force the courts to rule, nor the legislature to legislate.
    The judiciary controls the courts and rulings, but can't force the legislature to legislate, nor the executive to act.
    The legislature controls the purse and the laws, but can't force the judiciary to rule on the laws, nor the executive to enforce them, as they intended.

    The one mechanism the legislature has that makes it the most powerful branch of government (as was originally intended), is the ability to cut off all funding for anything the executive or judiciary might do that is contrary to the wishes of Congress.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Four words: United States Capitol POLICE.

    You can be pulled over and cited anywhere in DC by the USCP.

    If you are drinking a beer in Dupont Circle and a USCP officer observes you, he can arrest you.

    Odd, since the United States Capitol Police answer to no one but the Sergeant at Arms of the House of Representatives. Who, of course, is beholden to the LEGISLATIVE branch.

    Even though the jurisdiction of the USCP was originally limited to the Capitol grounds, over the years it has extended to the surrounding neighborhoods and now, into the entire city of Washington, DC.

    At one time, if a warrant was needed the USCP had to get a member of the Metropolitan Police or some EXECUTIVE law enforcement agency to obtain it. Now, the USCP can obtain warrants without such intermediaries. (and by the bye, "executive law enforcement" USED to be a redundancy.)

    If anyone who is reading this is a USCP officer, please know that I do not disparage you. I know a few of you and I know that you are fully competent to function as law enforcement officers. In fact, the average USCP officer is a better peace officer than the average member of the Washington DC Metropolitan Police. My argument here is based on the fact that your expanded jurisdiction and powers are in conflict with the same "separation of powers" doctrine which (supossedly) makes it unlawful for the Legislature to subpoena a member of the Executive branch to answer to charges of the misbehavior ov the Executive before the Legislative oversight committees.

    Something is MAJORLY effed up here. Don't you agree??

  23. #23
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    In my opinion everything the UNITED STATES Corporation is doing is planed well ahead of when it happens.
    So everybody has a script and is like shooting a movie. All those agents are working for the international bankers and don't give a damn about we the people. Their intent is to destroy this country one way or another. And are doing a real good job of it.
    Life is tough, its tougher when your stupid.

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