Tacoma officer fatally shoots driver near Purdy

VW_Factor · Jun 16, 2011

It appears that someone informed Stacey of the incorrect information about hollow points... Hmm

amlevin · Jun 16, 2011

As more news reports come in it is becoming apparent that this individual was far from just an average individual. Not only additional ammo but also a Koran and information on how to convert to Islam. Who knows what was going through his head at the time of this stop.

Just a "footnote", he was a Postal Service employee.

gogodawgs · Jun 16, 2011

VW_Factor said:
It appears that someone informed Stacey of the incorrect information about hollow points... Hmm

Yes, the line was retracted from the story.

HeesBonafide · Jun 16, 2011

Koran in truck

amlevin said:
As more news reports come in it is becoming apparent that this individual was far from just an average individual. Not only additional ammo but also a Koran and information on how to convert to Islam. Who knows what was going through his head at the time of this stop.

Just a "footnote", he was a Postal Service employee.

Brooks worked with people of many faiths and someone provided him a copy as a gift. Having a copy of the Koran does not make someone a terrorist anymore than having a copy of the bible would make someone a member of the KKK or any other white supremacist group.

MKEgal · Jun 16, 2011

HeesBonafide said:
Having a copy of the Koran does not make someone a terrorist anymore than having a copy of the Bible would make someone a member of the KKK or any other white supremacist group.

+1000
Thank you... you got to it first.

randian · Jun 16, 2011

Tomas said:
Just off the top of my head, I suspect the quote about "armor piercing bullets" probably came directly from the Tacoma Police spokesperson, Mark Fulghum, since we already know he lies easily (as covered in other recent news.)

It's but a tiny step to go from believing the spokesman is lying to believing the officer involved is lying, especially since the driver isn't alive to give an account of events.

hermannr · Jun 16, 2011

Is it possible that the "unmarked" car has something to do with this????

gogodawgs · Jun 16, 2011

hermannr said:
Is it possible that the "unmarked" car has something to do with this????

Why?
The driver was aware enough to pull over, thus realizing it was a police car.

Beretta92FSLady · Jun 16, 2011

acmariner99 said:
Since brandishing is not well defined by the article I am going to go with RCW 9.41.270 as a basis until more information becomes available. Having a weapon in hand alone would be brandishing because it "warrants alarm". An officer arriving on seen observing a man getting out of his car with a handgun in hand (if that indeed was what happened) would be a major problem. If that happened to any one of us, how much time would we effectively have to determine if the person was endangering us to the point of needing to return fire. A moments hesitation could cost you your life if you are wrong.

if I were pulling an erratic driver over that appeared intoxicated, and exited the vehicle with wagon in hand...I would give the POS as much time as it took for me to draw my sidearm, and start shooting.

Someone responded on here that the man having a handgun in his hand does not fulfill the requirement for lethal force, that may be true, until the man gets out of his car, stands in my direction, and makes one iota of a move towards me.

gogodawgs · Jun 16, 2011

acmariner99 said:
Since brandishing is not well defined by the article I am going to go with RCW 9.41.270 as a basis until more information becomes available. Having a weapon in hand alone would be brandishing because it "warrants alarm". An officer arriving on seen observing a man getting out of his car with a handgun in hand (if that indeed was what happened) would be a major problem. If that happened to any one of us, how much time would we effectively have to determine if the person was endangering us to the point of needing to return fire. A moments hesitation could cost you your life if you are wrong.

Correct, let's go with .270....

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

A police stop at 2am is definitely a manner, circumstance and time and place that would warrant alarm for the officer's safety.

Beretta92FSLady said:
if I were pulling an erratic driver over that appeared intoxicated, and exited the vehicle with wagon in hand...I would give the POS as much time as it took for me to draw my sidearm, and start shooting.

Someone responded on here that the man having a handgun in his hand does not fulfill the requirement for lethal force, that may be true, until the man gets out of his car, stands in my direction, and makes one iota of a move towards me.

sudden valley gunner · Jun 17, 2011

gogodawgs said:
Correct, let's go with .270....

A police stop at 2am is definitely a manner, circumstance and time and place that would warrant alarm for the officer's safety.

But did he have intent? We will never know. Unless someone happens to release a video.

I judge "officials" more harshly than other citizens as we all should, but if this officer would be brought to trial, like a regular citizen. I could not convict because of the lack of evidence either way. Same thing if the guy lived and he was brought to trial without evidence I am not just taking a cops word for it.

gogodawgs · Jun 17, 2011

sudden valley gunner said:
But did he have intent? We will never know. Unless someone happens to release a video.

I judge "officials" more harshly than other citizens as we all should, but if this officer would be brought to trial, like a regular citizen. I could not convict because of the lack of evidence either way. Same thing if the guy lived and he was brought to trial without evidence I am not just taking a cops word for it.

If someone gets out of their car at 2am and has a gun in hand, I would view that as intent.

Citizen · Jun 17, 2011

gogodawgs said:
If someone gets out of their car at 2am and has a gun in hand, I would view that as intent.

I can see how one might view it that way. But, you have to read something into it that may not be there.

A pointed gun is intent. Saying, "I'm gonna shoot you", and saying it like he means it, is intent.

Carrying the gun in hand hanging down at the side just isn't intent to shoot someone. Day or night. Cop or citizen. Traffic stop or hunting camp. It still has other possible explanations--thoughtlessness, stupidity, a desire to show he's not going to be pushed around or capable of defending himself. If he stepped out of the car intending to shoot, he'd come out gun blazing. Until the actual intent forms and becomes manifest, Intent is still missing from the triad.

randian · Jun 18, 2011

mik253 said:
not saying everyone who follows the koran is a violent terrorist but...you should really read the koran sometime..

Many who are not violent terrorists themselves fund terrorism through charitable contributions. Funding the mujahideen is considered exemplary in Islam, and is specifically called out as one of the approved uses of Islamic "charity".

Many who are not now violent terrorists can be convinced that they should be violent terrorists, because the Quran and Muhammad approve of terrorizing and conquering infidels. How else do you think Islamic terror groups recruit?

Islam is gaining great traction in our prisons, because prisoners are attracted to a religion that codifies the idea that terrorizing unbelievers (like the people who put you in prison) is a sacred act.

gogodawgs · Jun 18, 2011

mik253 said:
you should read the koran sometime
not saying everyone who follows the koran is a violent terrorist but...you should really read the koran sometime..

Have you read the Koran? In Arabic?

gogodawgs · Jun 18, 2011

Citizen said:
I can see how one might view it that way. But, you have to read something into it that may not be there.

A pointed gun is intent. Saying, "I'm gonna shoot you", and saying it like he means it, is intent.

Carrying the gun in hand hanging down at the side just isn't intent to shoot someone. Day or night. Cop or citizen. Traffic stop or hunting camp. It still has other possible explanations--thoughtlessness, stupidity, a desire to show he's not going to be pushed around or capable of defending himself. If he stepped out of the car intending to shoot, he'd come out gun blazing. Until the actual intent forms and becomes manifest, Intent is still missing from the triad.

The driver was coherent enough to understand to pull over at 2am because of the lights of a police vehicle. The driver made the intentional decision to get out of their vehicle at 2am and turn towards the police officer. The driver made the intentional decision to have a pistol in their had during these other actions.

Are you saying that the officer should not take that as intent to do harm? How long does it take to bring a semi automatic handgun to point and shoot at that point? How long should the officer wait before, upholstering their firearm, seek cover, return fire?

(p.s. I am leaving out the fact that 2am is the time the bars close in Washington. I am leaving out that the officers query of the vehicle would of shown a repeat DUI offender. I am leaving out that the driver smelled of intoxicants. I am leaving out the fact that the driver was a postal worker...ok well the postal worker thing just has to be a coincidence.)

amzbrady · Jun 18, 2011

jbone said:
That word "brandished" appeared in the article. It's such vague and open to interpretation word. Did it mean holding, pointing, waving in a threatening manner?

Does it matter or not?

Hasnt Troyer been quoted before using the term "brandished" for a properly holstered hand gun. If you step out of a vehicle during a stop "brandishing" a propely holstered handgun, is that reason enough to be shot?

gogodawgs said:
Yes, the line was retracted from the story.

But how many libs and anti's will see that? Most have read the article, gotten their fill of false info and are now going around believing that. Most will not ever see the retraction.

Citizen said:
I can see how one might view it that way. But, you have to read something into it that may not be there.

A pointed gun is intent. Saying, "I'm gonna shoot you", and saying it like he means it, is intent.

Carrying the gun in hand hanging down at the side just isn't intent to shoot someone. Day or night. Cop or citizen. Traffic stop or hunting camp. It still has other possible explanations--thoughtlessness, stupidity, a desire to show he's not going to be pushed around or capable of defending himself. If he stepped out of the car intending to shoot, he'd come out gun blazing. Until the actual intent forms and becomes manifest, Intent is still missing from the triad.

If police percieve this as intent, then shouldnt we all view the police as having the intent to shoot if they approach our vehicle with a gun drawn? Oregon police should be cautious, arent they now a can defend against police state? Look how many times people get shot and killed from simply holding a knife, not even waving it and screaming. I dont see how an unmarked, partially marked, or fully marked car really comes into play, lights flashing and wig wags on it would be almost impossible to see anything on the car for markings. Criminals have been known to use remade cop cars with lights to commit crimes.

xxx.jakk.xxx · Jun 18, 2011

amzbrady said:
Criminals have been known to use remade cop cars with lights to commit crimes.

Just had to throw something in there. It is unbelievably easy to buy and rebuild a police cruiser. I bought my Crown Victoria for about $2,000 from a guy who has at least 6 Crown Vic/ Caprices from different times from the 90s to current. He has at least 3 that have everything sans the top light bar. They have the push bars, cages, rifle/ shotgun racks, rear light bar, radio, laptop, etc. He even wears a jacket and cap that says police. I don't know if he commits crimes or just belongs to a club for the restoration of emergency vehicles, but if he can easily have at least 6 retired police cars and 3 of them fully built, then it would be easy for anyone.

randian · Jun 18, 2011

gogodawgs said:
Have you read the Koran? In Arabic?

Why, is Arabic an untranslatable alien language?

xxx.jakk.xxx · Jun 18, 2011

randian said:
Why, is Arabic an untranslatable alien language?

I think it's more broken translations of it. Sometimes a direct word for word translation just doesn't convey a message the same. If someone were to translate it, it may have a completely different message when someone else who believes something else translates it.

Though that's just my understanding of it and he may have had something completely different in mind for the language difference.

Tacoma officer fatally shoots driver near Purdy

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