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Thread: Conflicting Information - Real Deal About LA School "Zones"

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    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
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    Conflicting Information - Real Deal About LA School "Zones"

    I have seen threads where Jindal eliminated the STATE school zone thing for permit holders. On the Concealed Handgun Unit website it says they are off limits. What is the deal with this. If you get a resident LA permit and you are out walking near (within 1000 FT) are you legal or not)? I am not talking entering the grounds, just walking with a resident LA CCW permit and carrying concealed?

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    I'm not really sure what threads you're talking about, nor which changes. Can you elaborate?

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    Take a look at the state shall-issue permit.
    R.S. 40:1379.3(N)(11) at: http://legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=97451
    It doesn't list the school zone, only the school itself and any buses.

    Definitions of which are in R.S. 14:95.6: http://legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78745

    R.S. 14:95.2(C)(4) at: http://legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78741
    It lists the permit as an exception.

    This is the Act that did it: http://legis.state.la.us/billdata/by...56&doctype=ALL
    2010 Regular Session's Act 925.


    Best I can figure, the 1000 foot radius is legal if you have the state permit, though concealed carry on the campus itself, or in a bus, is not. I think the police are running an outdated page...

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    Regular Member estcrh's Avatar
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    Were does it say that you have to actually have your firearm concealed if you have a concealed carry permit?

    RS 40:1382
    1382. Negligent carrying of a concealed handgun

    A. Negligent carrying of a concealed handgun is the intentional or criminally negligent carrying by any person, whether or not authorized or licensed to carry or possess a concealed handgun, under the following circumstances:

    (1) When it is foreseeable that the handgun may discharge, or when others are placed in reasonable apprehension that the handgun may discharge.

    (2) When the handgun is being carried, brandished, or displayed under circumstances that create a reasonable apprehension on the part of members of the public or a law enforcement official that a crime is being committed or is about to be committed.

    B. It shall be within the discretion of the law enforcement officer to issue a summons to a person accused of committing this offense in lieu of making a physical arrest. The seizure of the handgun pending resolution of the offense shall only be discretionary in the instance where the law enforcement officer issues a summons to the person accused. If the law enforcement officer makes a physical arrest of the person accused, the handgun and the person's license to carry such handgun shall be seized.

    C. Whoever commits the offense of negligent carrying of a concealed handgun shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned without hard labor for not more than six months, or both. The adjudicating judge may also order the forfeiture of the handgun and may suspend or revoke any permit or license authorizing the carrying of the handgun.

    Acts 1996, 1st Ex. Sess., No. 4, 1, eff. April 19, 1996.

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    Regular Member barf's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    This used to be an open carry forum.

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    Regular Member estcrh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barf View Post
    This used to be an open carry forum.
    You can not open carry unless you take gun free school zones into consideration and people who open carry "FOR REAL" need accurate information on all aspects of open carrying, including were and when a concealed permit will help someone open carry without breaking any laws. If you do not like the content of a post just complain to the forum administration and they will decide what is and is not relevant.

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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    My arguement is that the permit is for CONCEALED firearms and the carrying of CONCEALED firearms. While it obvioulsly fulfills the requirement for legal Concealed carry within 1000 feet of a school campus, I don't see it having any impact on legal carry of an Openly carried firearm in that same GFZ. The GFZ law mentions carrying persuant to a state issue permit. The La CHP is to allow one to conceal. By open carrying you are not pursuant to the CHP. The arguement would be different if our permit was like the one issued in Tennessee which covers both Open and Concealed. In that case I could see the state issue permit meeting the requirement to OC in a GFZ.
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    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yale View Post
    The GFZ law mentions carrying persuant to a state issue permit. The La CHP is to allow one to conceal. By open carrying you are not pursuant to the CHP. The arguement would be different if our permit was like the one issued in Tennessee which covers both Open and Concealed. In that case I could see the state issue permit meeting the requirement to OC in a GFZ.
    Yale is correct. Having a LA CHP allows you to circumvent the state GFSZ law now, but you must carry concealed.
    Sorry, no OC in a school zone.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Yale is correct. Having a LA CHP allows you to circumvent the state GFSZ law now, but you must carry concealed.
    Sorry, no OC in a school zone.
    If this is what Yale meant then Yale is wrong. I don't understand... we've hashed this out MANY times already. Why is there still confusion?

    See Post#27 of this thread
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-or-not./page2

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    Quote Originally Posted by yale View Post
    My arguement is that the permit is for CONCEALED firearms and the carrying of CONCEALED firearms. While it obvioulsly fulfills the requirement for legal Concealed carry within 1000 feet of a school campus, I don't see it having any impact on legal carry of an Openly carried firearm in that same GFZ. The GFZ law mentions carrying persuant to a state issue permit. The La CHP is to allow one to conceal. By open carrying you are not pursuant to the CHP. The arguement would be different if our permit was like the one issued in Tennessee which covers both Open and Concealed. In that case I could see the state issue permit meeting the requirement to OC in a GFZ.
    Let's be clear so as not to confuse... a pemit is not needed to OC inside of a STATE gfsz. However, a permit IS necessary to carry in ANY manner in a FEDERAL GFSZ.

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    Regular Member estcrh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yale View Post
    My arguement is that the permit is for CONCEALED firearms and the carrying of CONCEALED firearms. While it obvioulsly fulfills the requirement for legal Concealed carry within 1000 feet of a school campus, I don't see it having any impact on legal carry of an Openly carried firearm in that same GFZ. The GFZ law mentions carrying persuant to a state issue permit. The La CHP is to allow one to conceal. By open carrying you are not pursuant to the CHP. The arguement would be different if our permit was like the one issued in Tennessee which covers both Open and Concealed. In that case I could see the state issue permit meeting the requirement to OC in a GFZ.
    Can you show me were in the regulations there are any guide lines as to how much of your gun has to be concealed. Does it specifically say that your gun has to be either partially or completely concealed? Its not what the intent of the law is, its what the law actually says that counts. The gun free schools zones require you to have a concealed permit in order to be in that zone with a gun, unless proved otherwise you just need to have a concealed permit, there is no actual requirement to conceal your weapon. On the other hand local law enforcement authorities will probably not have any real knowledge of the laws regarding either open or concealed carry and that is were your problem would come from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by estcrh View Post
    Can you show me were in the regulations there are any guide lines as to how much of your gun has to be concealed. Does it specifically say that your gun has to be either partially or completely concealed? Its not what the intent of the law is, its what the law actually says that counts. The gun free schools zones require you to have a concealed permit in order to be in that zone with a gun, unless proved otherwise you just need to have a concealed permit, there is no actual requirement to conceal your weapon. On the other hand local law enforcement authorities will probably not have any real knowledge of the laws regarding either open or concealed carry and that is were your problem would come from.
    Ya know... I've already explained this ONCE...

    It is what the INTENT of the law is 'cause that's what it SAYS...

    The concealed permit codes are there to give PERMISSION to do that which is otherwise ILLEGAL... namely...

    95. Illegal carrying of weapons

    A. Illegal carrying of weapons is:

    (1) The intentional concealment of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon, on one's person; or

    Do you see the word INTENTIONAL!!!???
    This is the code that DEFINES CONCEALED CARRY.

    ...yes Barf... this WAS once an OC forum...

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Let's be clear so as not to confuse... a pemit is not needed to OC inside of a STATE gfsz. However, a permit IS necessary to carry in ANY manner in a FEDERAL GFSZ.
    You did a good job of explaining how the LA state GFSZ is invalid per the state constitution, in this thread, Post #5:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...in-school-zone

    Open carry is a constitutionally protect activity in Louisiana. The state GFSZA doesn't apply to any constitutionally protected activity. So, OC is legal even in a school zone. (Again, we're not talking about federal law.)

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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    (Again, we're not talking about federal law.)
    I don't see how we CAN't be talking about Federal law. It's the Federal law that pretty much started all of this and is the reason for the State law. The Federal Law says you need a State issued permit to carry a firearm within 1000 feet of a school. Our State issue permit is to conceal carry. Thus it can't fulfill the Federal requirements for entering a GFSZ with an Openly Carried pistol.
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    Regular Member estcrh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Ya know... I've already explained this ONCE...

    It is what the INTENT of the law is 'cause that's what it SAYS...

    The concealed permit codes are there to give PERMISSION to do that which is otherwise ILLEGAL... namely...

    95. Illegal carrying of weapons

    A. Illegal carrying of weapons is:

    (1) The intentional concealment of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon, on one's person; or

    Do you see the word INTENTIONAL!!!???
    This is the code that DEFINES CONCEALED CARRY.

    ...yes Barf... this WAS once an OC forum...
    And once again were does it say anywere that you have to have your weapon concealed in order to be covered by a concealed permit in a gun free school zone? And once again this is a open carry topic, as this subject is helpful to people who want to open carry FOR REAL and have to worry about what is and is not legal to do in a gun free school zone.
    Last edited by estcrh; 06-18-2011 at 04:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by estcrh View Post
    And once again were does it say anywere that you have to have your weapon concealed in order to be covered by a concealed permit in a gun free school zone? And once again this is a open carry topic, as this subject is helpful to people who want to open carry FOR REAL and have to worry about what is and is not legal to do in a gun free school zone.
    If you're NOT carrying concealed, then you DON'T need a permit to OC in a STATE GFSZ. If you're not carrying concealed then you're NOT in violation of RS 14:95 and you don't need a permit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yale View Post
    I don't see how we CAN't be talking about Federal law.
    Next time you see a federal cop working a school zone, let me know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yale View Post
    I don't see how we CAN't be talking about Federal law. It's the Federal law that pretty much started all of this and is the reason for the State law. The Federal Law says you need a State issued permit to carry a firearm within 1000 feet of a school. Our State issue permit is to conceal carry. Thus it can't fulfill the Federal requirements for entering a GFSZ with an Openly Carried pistol.
    My bad Yale... you're right that we ARE talking about Fed law. However, the the state issued CC permit DOES "fulfill the Federal requirements for entering a GFSZ with an Openly Carried pistol." ...and that's MAINLY because MOST legislators are EFFING MORONS... buts that's the way it is for now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Next time you see a federal cop working a school zone, let me know.
    That's a clever observation HOWEVER, if you are MISTAKENLY arrested by LOCAL law enforcement and properly have you case DISMISSED, then the local prosecutor MAY hand the case over to the FED prosecutor. Being prepared to handle the UNCONSTITUTIONAL federal charge would be prudent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    That's a clever observation HOWEVER, if you are MISTAKENLY arrested by LOCAL law enforcement and properly have you case DISMISSED, then the local prosecutor MAY hand the case over to the FED prosecutor. Being prepared to handle the UNCONSTITUTIONAL federal charge would be prudent.
    All that is true enough.

    However, the simple truth is that unless you were carrying a load of drugs or child porn at the time, the AUSA won't care. Absent any other serious federal violation, it just won't be prosecuted. I've seen people convicted of it, but only as a plea bargain over other, much more serious charges, and only if they're spilling their guts.

    Please note, I'm only making this statement regarding pro-gun states. In much of California, NY, Mass., or Maryland, the USAs tend to share the political views of the locals.

    The risk of unlicensed OC in a school zone, or unlicensed cary carry in a school zone, is the same has having your LA license and driving through a school zone in another state. Even if your license is recognized there, or even if that state doesn't require a license for car carry (just like LA), passing through a school zone is both inevitable, and illegal under federal law if you have a loaded firearm.

    Obviously your chance of being noticed while OCing on foot through a school zone are greater than being noticed while driving. But, school zones are strict enforcement zones for traffic laws, so the chances of a police encounter there are greater than while driving in general.

    I'd be very interested in seeing any cites to cases where simple possession of a loaded firearm has lead to federal GFSZA charges.

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    Regular Member estcrh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    If you're NOT carrying concealed, then you DON'T need a permit to OC in a STATE GFSZ. If you're not carrying concealed then you're NOT in violation of RS 14:95 and you don't need a permit.
    It should be obvious that I was talking about the FEDERAL law not state law as the state has already been changed. The federal law requires a state conceal carry permit to legally have a gun in a gun free school zone. There is no Federal or state requirement that the gun be concealed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vermonter View Post
    I have seen threads where Jindal eliminated the STATE school zone thing for permit holders. On the Concealed Handgun Unit website it says they are off limits. What is the deal with this. If you get a resident LA permit and you are out walking near (within 1000 FT) are you legal or not)? I am not talking entering the grounds, just walking with a resident LA CCW permit and carrying concealed?

    You wouldn't have to have a La resident CHP it can be from another state as long as we honor that state. You can CC with your CHP right up to the school property line, just can't go on the school property or a school bus.

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    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    If you're NOT carrying concealed, then you DON'T need a permit to OC in a STATE GFSZ. If you're not carrying concealed then you're NOT in violation of RS 14:95 and you don't need a permit.
    As far as I know there is no such thing as separate Federal or State GFSZ's.

    Federal law mandated such a thing as a GFSZ, as in creating the concept of such a thing as a Gun Free School Zone when there wasn't any such thing before. The State law just added further restrictions to the Federal (such as a LA. CHP NOT giving permission to carry in one).

    There are no separate ZONES, one of which allows and one that doesn't. It's simply a Zone or AREA if you will, in which certain Federal and State laws laws both apply. One set of laws for this ONE zone concept allows for some exemptions, the other had it's own set of exemptions, some the same, some different. The State GFSZ law has since been modified to bring it more in line with the exemptions granted under the Federal version, in that it now allows LA. CHP holders to carry concealed in GFSZ's in Louisiana.

    You may be prosecuted under one set of laws or the other (or both depending on circumstances) but it's one zone and as such, OC'ing in one is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    As far as I know there is no such thing as separate Federal or State GFSZ's. .
    They are seperate because one is defined in federal law and the other is defined in state law. It just so happens that both the state and federal definitions include the 1000 ft. area so they apply to the same geographical area around a school.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Federal law mandated such a thing as a GFSZ, as in creating the concept of such a thing as a Gun Free School Zone when there wasn't any such thing before. The State law just added further restrictions to the Federal (such as a LA. CHP NOT giving permission to carry in one).
    Wrong. They are independent of each other. If you are charged with violatimng the state GFSZ law then you will be arraigned in a state(local) court. If you violate the fed law then you will be arraigned in a fed court

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    There are no separate ZONES, one of which allows and one that doesn't. It's simply a Zone or AREA if you will, in which certain Federal and State laws laws both apply. One set of laws for this ONE zone concept allows for some exemptions, the other had it's own set of exemptions, some the same, some different. The State GFSZ law has since been modified to bring it more in line with the exemptions granted under the Federal version, in that it now allows LA. CHP holders to carry concealed in GFSZ's in Louisiana.

    They ARE seperate zones BECAUSE they each have their own defining statute. It just so happens that the fed zone and state zone have exactly the same footprint geographically.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    You may be prosecuted under one set of laws or the other (or both depending on circumstances) but it's one zone and as such, OC'ing in one is not allowed.
    Wrong.

    You may NOT be prosecuted under both. Prosecution more than once on the same set of facts violates the DOUBLE JEOPARDY clause of the US Constitution.

    Ocing is "allowed" in BOTH.

    In the case of the fed zone, it is "allowed" "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
    do so by the State in which the school zone is located
    or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of
    the State or political subdivision requires that, before
    an individual obtain s such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political
    subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;"
    Notice there is NO requirement to have the permit ON your person while in a GFSZ.

    In the case of the state zone, Ocing is constitutionally protected.

    As an additional point, we should be pushing our fed represenatives to ammend the section I quote above to read simply this...

    "If it is according to the laws of the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State."

    Perhaps when Ron Paul wins the 2012 election, he'll work to have the entire law repealed.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 06-21-2011 at 02:02 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post

    You may NOT be prosecuted under both. Prosecution more than once on the same set of facts violates the DOUBLE JEOPARDY clause of the US Constitution.
    Ok Brother Georg, I'll give you that one. As far as one zone or two, it's tOHmato/tAHmato to me. It's a 1000 ft exclusionary zone either way.

    Ocing is "allowed" in BOTH.

    In the case of the fed zone, it is "allowed" "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
    do so by the State in which the school zone is located
    or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of
    the State or political subdivision requires that, before
    an individual obtain s such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political
    subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;"
    Notice there is NO requirement to have the permit ON your person while in a GFSZ. {
    If one is going to claim that your carrying in a GFSZ because you posses a permit you'd best have it with you don't you think? In fact, it's required if approached by LE per the LSP concealed handgun unit.

    Per your statement above, one must be licensed to carry in your state. The only license to carry here is concealed, ergo, only La. CHP holders can carry in a GFSZ in Louisiana. Open carry is not licensed in Louisiana, therefore one may not open carry here or violate Federal law. The Fed law also says that if you are not possessing a state license, the firearm may be carried but must be unloaded and locked in a case.

    Louisiana GFSZ law says:
    (4) The possession of a firearm occurring within one thousand feet of school property and entirely on private property, or entirely within a private residence, or in accordance with a concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to R.S. 40:1379.1 or R.S. 40:1379.3.

    "In accordance with" means it must be carried concealed in order to get an exemption from the GFSZ law via use of a CHP.

    In the case of the state zone, Ocing is constitutionally protected.
    While I agree with this interpretation in theory, it hasn't been proven in court and I don't know anyone willing to be the guinea pig.
    Until a court case says open carry is a Const. protected activity, I'll assume it's not as far as LE goes.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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