Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Brandishing on Private Property

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    18

    Brandishing on Private Property

    This may have been mentioned before, but I could not find anything about it in the search. But what are the laws concerning brandishing on private property? For example, a while ago there were several gang-banging teenagers who were hesitant to leave my property after several warnings. I also had some outdoor items stolen a few nights ago. I don't want to call the police on these kids because they obviously know where I live, and I've already been shot at once for stopping a home invasion, so I know they have deadly potential.

  2. #2
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,037

    However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in...

    Excusable or justifiable self-defense.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-282

    I would not suggest so much "brandishing" as wearing openly and making sure the bangers see it. They will get the idea.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  3. #3
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    north mason county, Washington, USA
    Posts
    4,381

    well,,,

    "Get off my lawn"!

    in my state, on my property, I can draw, point, twirl, threaten, anytime and anyone I want!

    you dont want to call the cops, on guys that try home invasion, and shoot at you?

    you got more concerns than the legality of brandishing!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    18
    Oh I did have the cops there after the invasion/shooting, but not since they were trespassing. I live on several acres of woods, so they like to go back there and conspire or whatever they do, including building fires, which I'm not keen of. I even found a stash of guns once! Turned them in of course.
    So walking outside with my shotgun would not be excusable? Or is that considered open carry? The neighbors can't see me, but if the shadowy figures decide to call the cops on ME for having a gun, I would get in trouble?

  5. #5
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    I would suggest against leaving the safety of your home to go outside and confront trespassers with a gun. Remember too, you cannont use deadly force to protect property in Virginia.

    You may want to speak to one of the fine attorneys that we have around here to get their advice.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  6. #6
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Greene County
    Posts
    3,844
    I'd personally inform those turds they are trespassing (DVR/CCTV running) and call the police everytime they return.
    Like someone else stated you have bigger issues than worrying about brandishing.
    Good Luck!


    If you have enough property to legally shoot consider posting no trepasssing/ bullet impact zone signs.
    Invite a dozen or so friends over for a friendly shoot.
    Last edited by Marco; 06-16-2011 at 02:38 PM.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  7. #7
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Newport News, VA, ,
    Posts
    1,586
    Kg4usk, I don't have as much property as you, but I always carry, usually OC around the house (outside, weather permitting).

    I have had several encounters with strangers who came into my yard without an obvious purpose, but didn't cause any trouble, as I suspect they saw my (holstered) firearm. Once, a person knocked on my door, another walked up my driveway as I was pulling my truck into the garage. In each instance, they left peaceably after I spoke with them, and I notified the police.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    18
    Yeah I will definitely use my better judgement when it comes to these things. I was just wondering the legality of having a firearm in my hands when confronting stubborn trespassers. The cops can't really do anything about the issue and signs just get torn down in a couple days. It's just a bunch of teenage gangsters who find strength in numbers. I've talked to one and he was all "cool cool, I'll leave". Get a few together and it turns into "you can't tell me what to do, I got people on all deez streets". Oh the joy of living in the city

  9. #9
    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Loudoun County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    683

    Be cautious

    I’m by no means a lawyer, but my laymen’s understanding of the law tells me that brandishing still applies on private property. A murder is still a murder regardless of public or private property, most laws (emphasis on “most”) don’t recognize a distinction between public and private land.

    There is a proviso that you can brandish if you are engaged in “excusable” or “justifiable” self defense, however what may be justifiable to you and I may differ to a magistrate or jury. I’d have it quite visible on your belt when confronting the ragamuffins, however having it in your hand without some qualifying condition to illicit immediate fear of grievous bodily injury and/or death may land you in the klink.

    No a sermon, just a thought.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    The problem as I see it is that you're intimidated by these kids and want to turn the tables.

    That's a bad plan, legal or not.

    Your gun is a tool of last resort. You have it to save your life, not frighten people.

    If you brandish it long enough, someone's going to take you up on it.
    Then one of several things are going to happen.

    1. You have to kill him and hope it's justified.

    2. He takes your gun and you hope he doesn't use it on you.

    3. You run and forever have a "KICK ME" sign on your back.

    If you can't handle them, call a cop.

  11. #11
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    King George, VA
    Posts
    1,384
    Then again, I couldn't recommend confronting anyone whom you have a reason to distrust while disarmed.

    It sounds like you've got enough property for the "in a public place" clause to not apply to your particular circumstances.
    Last edited by t33j; 06-16-2011 at 06:30 PM.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    Then again, I couldn't recommend confronting anyone whom you have a reason to distrust while disarmed.

    It sounds like you've got enough property for the "in a public place" clause to not apply to your particular circumstances.
    No, and I wouldn't either.
    There is a world of difference between being armed and Brandishing though....except in Surry

  13. #13
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,962
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The problem as I see it is that you're intimidated by these kids and want to turn the tables.

    That's a bad plan, legal or not.

    Your gun is a tool of last resort. You have it to save your life, not frighten people.

    If you brandish it long enough, someone's going to take you up on it.
    Then one of several things are going to happen.

    1. You have to kill him and hope it's justified.

    2. He takes your gun and you hope he doesn't use it on you.

    3. You run and forever have a "KICK ME" sign on your back.

    If you can't handle them, call a cop.
    I agree with Peter, but it might be better to rely upon a big dog than the Po-Po. Many sewer rats fear dogs more than po-po.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  14. #14
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northern Piedmont of Virginia
    Posts
    2,373
    Brandishing on private property is brandishing. Just like possession of cocaine on private property is possession of cocaine. The essence of the offense is the intention of creating the apprehension in the mind of another person that he's likely to be seriously injured. It's a good basis for the self-defense rule when the unrulies have to defend themselves in court for why they shot you dead. Defense of "mere property interests" is not self-defense and gives no right to use deadly force.

    Now, if you happen to be armed, and engaging in conversation with the unrulies, and one or more of them does something that gives you a good faith belief, based on objective fact, that you or another innocent third party (you can't have started the problem and still be "innocent") is faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury, then the use of such force as may be reasonable, up to and including deadly force, is excusable.

    Consider Charles Bronson's character in one of the "Death Wish" sequels: He buys a cheap used car and installs an expensive radio in it. While he's at dinner, the unrulies begin to steal the radio. He goes outside to see what's going on, and asks them, "Hey, what's the problem?"
    "whut?";
    "I said, what's the problem?";
    "What's it to you, suckah?";
    "It's my car!";
    "Now you gonna die!" (pulling out a dangerous looking knife and approaching with evil intent);
    At this point, the protagonist reasonably perceives, and forms the good faith belief, that he is faced with the threat of serious bodily injury. He did absolutely nothing to start a fight, and only asked questions about why the unrulies were in his car. He pulls out his Model 29 or some such enormous revolver and goes, "Blam, blam."

    I'm not sure he should have shot the second guy.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Greene County
    Posts
    3,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    I agree with Peter, but it might be better to rely upon a big dog than the Po-Po. Many sewer rats fear dogs more than po-po.
    1+

    But the dogs don't have to be big just capable of handling the situation, the shelter probably has some less than friendly k-9's that need a good home, one is good, two is better and three would be ideal.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    18
    Okay I understand. I am somewhat intimidated by these kids because there's a good possibility they have arms or access to them, and in my mind an unruly kid/teen with a gun is a scary thought. I'm also more or less just tired of all the city scum around here.
    Now, is brandishing in your own home different? .. say if a B&E were to occur.
    And, can you legally hold someone at gunpoint in certain circumstances? Not saying it would be a good idea, but I'm just curious.

  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northern Piedmont of Virginia
    Posts
    2,373
    Think of the self-defense exception to the brandishing statute as your get-out-of-jail-free card for the time when you've decided you need to kill another human being for good and lawful reasons, and you take all the steps necessary to accomplish that goal except pull the trigger. Then you decide your initial perception was in error, and you re-holster the gun without shooting. Point is, you're not required to kill someone even if you had the requisite "good faith belief, based on objective fact, that you or another innocent third party is faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury". You can, and should, avoid shooting where you can see you made a mistake that changes your perception of things (e.g., it's not a burglar, it's the Alzheimer's patient from across the street who wandered into the wrong house at 2:00 a.m. by mistake).

    That's the only situation, in my mind, to which that exception applies.

    If you are a cop and you have to control people in the crack house at midnight while your colleagues are executing a search warrant, then, yes, you can hold the gun on people for the purpose of intimidation (though it would be illegal to shoot them unless they did something that threatened serious bodily injury).

    Any other attempt at intimidating, coercing, or controlling other people using a dangerous weapon (e.g., crowbar, tire-iron, etc.) is illegal. Notwithstanding movies to the contrary, pulling a gun out does not make you the boss, it makes you the target. You may, however, use such force as may be reasonably necessary to remove trespassers from your property, and if they resist, you may escalate as necessary; if they threaten serious bodily injury, then deadly force is legally excusable - but that's the self-defense rule at that point, not the self-help rule for dealing with trespassers.

    I think it would be funny if you were to photograph these "unrulies", find out who they are, and file a civil suit against them for damages and an injunction. They wouldn't have a clue how to deal with that. And when you get your injunction awarded on your decree pro confesso (told you they wouldn't have a clue), and they continue trespassing, at that point you file a motion for a rule to show cause why they should not be held in contempt. Two or three of those on the same person can and likely will result in jail time, even though it's a civil suit.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  18. #18
    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,121
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent19 View Post
    1+

    But the dogs don't have to be big just capable of handling the situation, the shelter probably has some less than friendly k-9's that need a good home, one is good, two is better and three would be ideal.
    I agree with having big dogs, or at least big enough to intimidate. A dog that is territorial and more than 75 pounds will keep most people off of your property.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  19. #19
    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Dale City, VA, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,694
    Posting a few small signs might be a subtle approach.


  20. #20
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,217
    Brandishing on your property at someone off your property (as 'in the street') would not, imo, be legal or supportable.

    I carry, basically for the types of situations where otherwise I'd be cowering waiting to die trapped in the back of a 7-11 during a strong arm robbery where the perps are executing witnesses. All other type cases, from car jacking to mugging I would do everything possible NOT to deploy/shoot, including give up my property.

    Even a home invasion if you can chase them out, or scare them away (like the mp3 of a shotgun racking ploy) then no shooting needed.

    $.02
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  21. #21
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Newport News, VA, ,
    Posts
    1,586
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Brandishing on your property at someone off your property (as 'in the street') would not, imo, be legal or supportable.

    I carry, basically for the types of situations where otherwise I'd be cowering waiting to die trapped in the back of a 7-11 during a strong arm robbery where the perps are executing witnesses. All other type cases, from car jacking to mugging I would do everything possible NOT to deploy/shoot, including give up my property.

    Even a home invasion if you can chase them out, or scare them away (like the mp3 of a shotgun racking ploy) then no shooting needed.

    $.02
    And then what are you prepared to do?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  22. #22
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,217
    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    And then what are you prepared to do?
    Use tactics, evasion, non-lethal methods (backed up by stronger methods), teamwork approach, using the car (both as a weapon and an escape method), Verbal Judo, creating distance and time, seeking cover (very effective if you have a HG, in preventing the perp/predator from approaching).

    Is that what you meant?

    As a martial artist who studied traditional MA and MMA for >30 years, and prepared to use empty hands and weapons, all the methods above up to and including HGs are just points on a force continuum. I don't lose my ability to fight with a knife (Bowie and big knife fighting), with a stick (FMA) and on the ground (BJJ/wrestling) just because I have a HG. I need space and time to deploy a weapon. I also carry OC spray, tactical flashlight, cane and I'm with a partner who carries. With that much SD capability, I should be able to handle most situations without shooting/killing someone.

    Not everyone knows how to fight and not everyone who carries a HG knows how to fight or fight with their gun. I do.

    HTH
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •