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Thread: North Carolina Omnibus Gun Bill Passes Before General Assembly Adjourns Tomorrow!

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    North Carolina Omnibus Gun Bill Passes Before General Assembly Adjourns Tomorrow!

    With the North Carolina General Assembly set to adjourn this Friday, the state Senate acted quickly and passed House Bill 650 yesterday, before time ran out. This legislation, introduced by pro-gun state Representative Mark Hilton (R-96), is an extensive reform of North Carolina gun laws. It contains Castle Doctrine language, Fraudulent Firearms Purchase language, allows Right-to-Carry (RTC) permit holders to store firearms in their vehicles when parked on the grounds of certain state properties and courthouses, removes the restriction on owning (but not possessing) firearms by those subject to certain orders of protection, allows for the purchase of rifles and shotguns by North Carolina residents in all of the 49 other states, removes some restrictions on local governments prohibiting RTC permit holders from carrying firearms in parks under local control, as well as other improvements.


    HB 650 now heads to Governor Beverly Perdue for her signature. Please contact Governor Perdue by clicking here and thank her for her past support of the Second Amendment, and urge her to sign into law this critical legislation.



    While HB 650 makes tremendous improvements to current law, the NRA was disappointed that many provisions in the original bill were not passed. We worked closely in the House with the bill's sponsor, Representative Hilton, to ensure that we could get the best possible bill.



    One unfortunate casualty overall was strong Parking Lot/Employee Protection language that would have prohibited businesses from establishing policies that would have stopped RTC permit holders from storing firearms safely in their vehicles. This provision was struck from the bill by an amendment offered by state Representative Chuck McGrady (R-117) and passed by a 59 to 57 vote in the House. In fact, if just one Representative who voted for this amendment had voted against it, it would have failed. You can find the recorded vote here.



    Another unfortunate casualty was language that would have allowed RTC permit holders to safely store their firearms in their vehicles while parked on school property. This was removed in the Senate, when the Senate Judiciary II Committee approved a substitute for HB 650 that carved out this provision. While it is unclear why this provision was excluded and who was directly responsible for this action, Senate Republican leadership made it clear that it was directly involved with all firearm-related legislation. We can only presume this action was approved by the Senate leadership.



    An additional casualty in the Senate was Senate Bill 594, the bill introduced by state Senator Doug Berger (D-7) that would have ensured that the Second Amendment would not be impacted during a declared State of Emergency. While the NRA strongly urged state Senators to add the language in SB 594 to HB 650, state Senator Buck Newton (R-11) refused to allow the bill to be heard or added to another bill as an amendment, even though he was a cosponsor of SB 594. His action were supported by Senate Republican leadership.



    Fortunately, Governor Perdue has been making sure gun rights are not affected when she declares a State of Emergency. Unfortunately, because of the inaction in the Senate on SB 594, if a local government declares a State of Emergency, prohibitions on transporting firearms outside of the home may still be imposed. Even RTC permit holders would be forced to leave their personal protection firearms at home in order to comply with a local State of Emergency. This could put lives at risk.



    Finally, House Bill 111, also introduced by Representative Hilton, was not acted upon in the state Senate. This bill would have removed the prohibition on RTC permit holders carrying their firearms into a restaurant licensed to serve alcohol. Although a Senate Republican leadership representative had stated this bill would be voted on this year, it never was. Thankfully, because it passed the House long before the crossover deadline, the bill remains viable for next year. The NRA will work to ensure it passes next year, and continue to work for additional firearm reforms.

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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    wtf is a Right-To-Carry (RTC) Permit?
    Last edited by rotorhead; 06-16-2011 at 09:15 PM.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    wtf is a Right-To-Carry (RTC) Permit?
    That is a euphemism used to encompass ALL sorts of carry permits issued by other states as well as our own CHP. Some states do not have a permit that is specifically for "concealed carry", like PA or MD. They are just general "carry permits" and can cover OC and/or CC...

    However, calling them a "right-to-carry permit" is like calling the Patriot Act the "Patriot Act". It is a fundamental bit of Orwellian double-speak, and at it's heart, a contradiction in terms.

    A "Right" requires no permit, so if you need a permit to exercise a "right" it is no longer a right, but rather a regulated privilege...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    OK, I just read the final version of HB 650, and there are a few things that I'm not sure that I get...

    (note, for some reason, "strikethroughs" don't copy and paste here, so I've highlighted the "struck" wording in red to indicate it's deletion in the bill)
    "§ 14‑415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.
    (8) a financial institution, or on any other premises, except state‑owned rest areas or state‑owned rest stops along the highways, On any private premises where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises.

    (c1)Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun on the grounds or waters of a park within the State Parks System as defined in G.S. 113‑44.9.
    As I read this revision of (8), it looks like they have lifted the prohibition on CC in banks--if the bank isn't posted. Is my interpretation correct?

    And (c1) appears to make it legal to CC in State Parks now, unless they are posted. Is this correct?


    "§ 14‑415.15. Issuance or denial of permit.
    (c) A person's application for a permit shall be denied only if the applicant fails to qualify under the criteria listed in this Article. If the sheriff denies the application for a permit, the sheriff shall, within 90 45 days, notify the applicant in writing, stating the grounds for denial. An applicant may appeal the denial, revocation, or nonrenewal of a permit by petitioning a district court judge of the district in which the application was filed. The determination by the court, on appeal, shall be upon the facts, the law, and the reasonableness of the sheriff's refusal. The determination by the court shall be final."
    And this appears to have reduced the Sheriff's processing time for CHPs to 45 days. I sthis correct? My county processed mine in 2 weeks, but some counties seem to have a tough time getting it done within the old 90-day limit. This should prove to be interesting for places like Wake and Durham Counties, that are notorious for holding up CHP applications for the full 90-days as previously proscribed...


    "§ 14‑415.24. Reciprocity; out‑of‑state handgun permits.
    (a) A valid concealed handgun permit or license issued by another state is valid in North Carolina if that state grants the same right to residents of North Carolina who have valid concealed handgun permits issued pursuant to this Article in their possession while carrying concealed weapons in that state.North Carolina.
    The way I read this revision is that NC now essentially extends recognition to EVERY State in the Union that has permits, regardless of whether that state extends reciprocity to NC or not. Is this a correct reading?


    My biggest "YEAH" in this bill is that we now have "Civil Immunity" in lawful self-defense shootings. In the past, NC only had Criminal Immunity. This gives us near-perfect "Castle Doctrine" law, IMO. If only we had a Texas-style "defense of property" clause, we'd be batting 100% on Castle doctrine, but this is a HUGE improvement.

    Hopefully Gov. Bev will sign it toot suite. I hope she understands that supporting this bill is one of the "litmus test" bills come Fall 2012.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-16-2011 at 10:53 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer, you're mostly right on as far as I can tell. Note that the CD include "curtilage". Basically, buildings and surrounding grounds of the house.

    From HB 650
    The following definitions apply in this section:
    Home. – A building or conveyance of any kind, to include its curtilage, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed as a temporary or permanent residence.


    From the net...

    Curtilage
    The area, usually enclosed, encompassing the grounds and buildings immediately surrounding a home that is used in the daily activities of domestic life.

    A garage, barn, smokehouse, chicken house, and garden are curtilage if their locations are reasonably near to the home. The determination of what constitutes curtilage is important for purposes of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures of a person and of his or her home or property. Courts have construed the word home to include curtilage so that a person is protected against unlawful searches and seizures of his or her curtilage.

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/curtilage


    I would not quite call this defense of property, Texas style. But it sounds like the CD extends to me working in my garden, garage, or out building. I like that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    As I read this revision of (8), it looks like they have lifted the prohibition on CC in banks--if the bank isn't posted. Is my interpretation correct?
    Yes.

    And (c1) appears to make it legal to CC in State Parks now, unless they are posted. Is this correct?
    Partially. They aren't allowed to post. It'll be legal to CC in State Parks, period.

    The way I read this revision is that NC now essentially extends recognition to EVERY State in the Union that has permits, regardless of whether that state extends reciprocity to NC or not. Is this a correct reading?
    Yes.

    While there's some good stuff in this bill, I'm very disappointed that HB111 was left for dead this year, though I think 14-269.3 should just be repealed instead of further bloated. Let these private businesses decide and post a sign if they don't want to allow it - the state should stay out of it.

    Also, instead of eliminating municipal park carry prohibitions, they complicated it. The park I most often visit has a small eating shelter, a playground, a baseball field and tennis courts. While my town could allow carry in these places, I'm expecting them to pass an ordinance listing every single playground, athletic field, swimming pool, and athletic facility along with the requirement to post no carry signs at each. It won't be practical for me to carry while my kids play on the playground because if something happens and I need to tend to them, I'd be prohibited from entering. Arg!

    A bigger problem is that there's no clear boundary line for some of these facilities. Where does the eating area end and the playground begin? Is the blacktop and basketball goal that's next to the playground part of the playground? Is it an "athletic field", an "athletic facility"? There's no clear definition (that I'm aware of) of playground, athletic field and athletic facility. It looks to me like the municipality has the freedom to "specifically identify" any place that could be remotely considered one of these and prohibit carry there. Double arg!

    I'm sure this part of the bill helps for other types of parks, but I think I would rather it have died with HB111 and have another round of arguments on it next year.

    I still have hope that more good is to come in the next few years, but it sure is painful to see so many emotion-driven anti-gun legislators (even some Republicans) make a mess of some of it.

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    Isnt HB 650 veto proof ?

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    Lamens like me need to know in short what this means.

    Where can we now carry that we couldn't carry before?

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brion View Post
    Lamens like me need to know in short what this means.

    Where can we now carry that we couldn't carry before?

    From the way I read it, it does NOT give you the ability to legally OC anyplace new.

    But it does allow CC in State Parks and banks (if the bank isn't posted), provided you have a CC permit.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brion View Post
    Lamens like me need to know in short what this means.

    Where can we now carry that we couldn't carry before?
    Until it is signed into law, nowhere.

    Assuming. It does go into effect, CC in banks, and carry how you please in state parks. Municipal parks will vary according to local ordinance - permitted unless/until specifically prohibited.

    Edit: Oops... apparently state parks will be CC only. My bad. Still an improvement, as we have a ton of nice state parks with camping areas in NC.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRonB View Post
    ...though I think 14-269.3 should just be repealed instead of further bloated.
    As well as § 14 288.7. (the State of Emergency carry ban) That one is going to be a HUGE thorn in Perdue's side if I have anything to say about it....
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-17-2011 at 12:21 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    I'm still pissed that we didn't get restaurant carry passed in this year's session. That would have a greater impact on our daily lives than the state park allowance.

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    Just read this article from the Raleigh News & Confuser:

    http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/06/...-gun-laws.html

    According to the article, this law will enable gun owners to carry at state maintained rest stops (which we ALREADY DO LEGALLY).

    In the preceding sentence the reporter writes that this bill will allow guns in state parks, provided that they remain secured in vehicles.... WTF?!?!? This can't be right!!!




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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruger View Post
    Just read this article from the Raleigh News & Confuser:

    http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/06/...-gun-laws.html

    According to the article, this law will enable gun owners to carry at state maintained rest stops (which we ALREADY DO LEGALLY).

    In the preceding sentence the reporter writes that this bill will allow guns in state parks, provided that they remain secured in vehicles.... WTF?!?!? This can't be right!!!
    I would say that the reporter is half right and probably just screwed up the sentence. Concealed Carry will be lawful in State Parks once passed. One can bring a handgun to a courthouse but it must remained locked in the car - they are still not allowed inside, unless you are a judge or what-not (I didn't read that part too carefully as I am not or ever will be a DA or a judge).
    Last edited by dmatting; 06-17-2011 at 01:49 PM.

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    Yeah, I get that. They still screwed up though.

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    Dreamer wrote:

    "§ 14‑415.24. Reciprocity; out‑of‑state handgun permits.
    (a) A valid concealed handgun permit or license issued by another state is valid in North Carolina if that state grants the same right to residents of North Carolina who have valid concealed handgun permits issued pursuant to this Article in their possession while carrying concealed weapons in that state.North Carolina.

    The way I read this revision is that NC now essentially extends recognition to EVERY State in the Union that has permits, regardless of whether that state extends reciprocity to NC or not. Is this a correct reading?


    A valid concealed handgun permit or license issued by another state is valid in North Carolina if that state grants the same right to residents of North Carolina who have valid concealed handgun permits issued pursuant to this Article in their possession while carrying concealed weapons in that state


    I read that to indicate unless such states as CA, NY, et. al.. recognize NC permits their permits will not be recognized. Their permits will only be recognized it they recognize NC permits.

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    The leaders of CA, NY, etc. probably don't care, since there aren't many permits issued by those states anyway.

    I say F*** 'em. Its New York & California. The states represented by Feinstein & McCarthy. If Diane wants her permit honored here, then lets get some reciprocity. Otherwise, she can go screw herself.

    This one sticks in my craw since I have family in CA & I don't like having to disarm to go visit.

    It just ain't right that I pay to take a class here, then pay $90 to the state, then BJ Barnes's lackeys check me out & take 94 days to issue my permit once they see that there's no reason not to, and then I can be charged with a FELONY & sent to a state prison for YEARS in the People's Republic of Kalifornia for doing the exact thing that I've been quite thoroughly approved to do here. Pisses me off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruger View Post
    The leaders of CA, NY, etc. probably don't care, since there aren't many permits issued by those states anyway.

    I say F*** 'em. Its New York & California. The states represented by Feinstein & McCarthy. If Diane wants her permit honored here, then lets get some reciprocity. Otherwise, she can go screw herself.

    This one sticks in my craw since I have family in CA & I don't like having to disarm to go visit.

    It just ain't right that I pay to take a class here, then pay $90 to the state, then BJ Barnes's lackeys check me out & take 94 days to issue my permit once they see that there's no reason not to, and then I can be charged with a FELONY & sent to a state prison for YEARS in the People's Republic of Kalifornia for doing the exact thing that I've been quite thoroughly approved to do here. Pisses me off.

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    I'm with you on this one. I have family in MD and I make them meet me in VA. Where they are from in MD you better at least have one gun on you at all times.
    Walk softly and carry a large caliber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by American Patriot View Post
    Dreamer wrote:

    A valid concealed handgun permit or license issued by another state is valid in North Carolina if that state grants the same right to residents of North Carolina who have valid concealed handgun permits issued pursuant to this Article in their possession while carrying concealed weapons in that state

    I read that to indicate unless such states as CA, NY, et. al.. recognize NC permits their permits will not be recognized. Their permits will only be recognized it they recognize NC permits.
    Text in red from that post indicates text removed from the statute by HB650. If it becomes law, NC will recognize a valid CC permit from any state, regardless of that state's recognition of a NC CHP.

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