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Thread: Hmmm

  1. #1
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Hmmm

    Doesnt look like the police need to go to the range for target practice.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    At least in this case a lot of the 23 rounds fired hit the subject. Better than the reports where police open fire on a subject, shoot 20-30 rounds, and don't hit anything.

    I always wonder where all those rounds that didn't hit the subjects go. To me that's a big problem, police unleashing a barrage of gunfire creating a hazard for citizens totally unaware. As for qualification on the range, depending on the department one can qualify with a score in the low 60% range. Maybe that standard should be raised to the 85-90% level. At least that would require more practice.

    It's not their "Hits" I worry about, it's their misses that could end up in some innocent party just walking down the street or sitting in their living room.
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    lots of shooting....

    I know folks wonder why the police can't be "super marksman..."

    What I mean is that we the average citizen and gun enthusiast are perfectly fine at the range so why can't the police hit anything...

    Well, we forget the scenario... of shooting at the range versus in an active shooting scenario... The police aren't typically shooting at a stagnet target that isn't shooting back, nor having to duck under cover because of being fired upon or running a few blocks chasing a suspect.

    Just because someone is a "cop" doesn't make them a better shot. To be in law enforcement the ability to shoot is just one small piece... enforcing the laws, knowing just enough to know what is legal, procedures of everyday LEO stuff... The vast majority is boredom... driving around or doing paperwork...

    A shooting is dynamic... people are moving, you have folks in your way, people shooting at you...

    Have you ever tried shooting at a moving target?
    How about simply moving... while shooting?

    Think about it... if you haven't go and find a range where you can and try it. It'll open your eyes to how difficult "the Sunday quarterbacking we are all guilty of..." when you look at these officer involved shootings.

    Look at history... In Vietnam the round count was like 100,000 rounds per EKIA (enemy killed in action). So when you throw in the "OMG they are shooting at me....to kill me... aspect" It changes the way you do things...


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    Last edited by oldkim; 06-17-2011 at 01:40 PM.
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    About six shots fired by each officer? Sounds about right. One is taught to keep shooting until the subject stops his actions. And how often on this very forum (and every other pro-gun forum) do posters state, "I'm shooting to slide-lock?" Yes.

    Why the need to turn this into a thread about police marksmanship?


    As for qualification on the range, depending on the department one can
    qualify with a score in the low 60% range.
    What departments would those be? 70% passes on most PPCs and is the minimum I'm familiar with, but there's no reason to get wrapped around the axle with numbers, because, as OldKim notes, a gunfight is not a static event.

    If you've never experienced the two-way range, don't reflexively judge the actions of those that have.

  5. #5
    Regular Member usamarshal's Avatar
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    There was a shooting in Miami where the suspect was in a car and I believe about 6 or so offiers shot a total of 100+ rounds at the car/suspect. 3 other officers and 4 civilians were hit by the hail of bullets....haha....the damn car was literally 20-30 ft away....haha...somebody down there needs more range time I think...

  6. #6
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Now the purpose behind this thread. Witness say they didnt see a gun. What if the police pulled over an open carrier and started firing and the open carrier, in defense, was able to get off 2 rounds which were found in the car. Incomplete reporting that leaves too many "hmmm's". Why were there so many officers on scene? I dont find it a good thing that police come up to a car with their gun drawn, and all you can do is sit there hoping not to become a statistic. Our lives are determined by an officers perception and discretion.

    Edited to clarify...

    This was never a thread about their accuracy, although since it was mentioned, they could use more training. It is about people being shot repeatedly by numerous officers. Some are warranted, some are not. My comment was about police not needing to go to the range, they have living breathing moving targets to shoot at.
    Last edited by amzbrady; 06-17-2011 at 02:41 PM.
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    Regular Member LibertyDeath's Avatar
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    I recall an incident in Clark County where some police fired three volleys containing about 100 total rounds at a suicidial guy. They hit the guy 26 times even though he ducked behind the dash of his truck for two of those volleys. Suprisingly, he lived.

    Our local PD has a strict requirement for qualification. If there is one round that fails to make it into the target they fail. They also have to get 80% to pass.

    When I go to the range sometimes I get scared because some of my coworkers have no business touching a gun.

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    Flip side....Two Sugarland (Texas) PD officers corner bank robber; he jumps out of car shooting....Coroner pulls 4 slugs from his chest and 2 from his head; dual perfect Mozambiques!
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  9. #9
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    Richland Police Release New Info on Officer-Involved Shooting

    Hot off the press, there is one statement I am sure some will chew on a bit and maybe rightfully so.
    Quote Originally Posted by keprtv
    "It is standard police practice, and the training of the Richland Police Department, to continue shooting until a threat is neutralized. Officers observed that Mr. Schultz continued to move as they were firing shots.
    They ceased shooting only after Mr. Schultz stopped moving."
    Last edited by BigDave; 06-17-2011 at 04:01 PM.
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    Shot by numerous officers...

    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    This was never a thread about their accuracy... It is about people being shot repeatedly by numerous officers.
    So, why... well, a "squad" type shooting training is one of "team" SWAT and other special units train together. As a large department that is almost impossible to do. Meaning to train as a unit having all the same members... consistently. Without consistent training... you can't master the basics or more.

    In the military... squad and larger type units train together for a purpose... In these commanders in charge get to see and do the large movements and conduct what would be best tactically and necessary to get the job/mission done. The individual becomes lost for the sake of the larger group.

    So now back to why numerous repeatedly shot by numerous officers. Those officers are not robots. It's not like they "sync up" Once any one of them see's a threat... that officer goes into action. You don't wait and see if another officer neutralizes the threat. The other officer may not have seen that threat and you just let a fellow officer down...

    Unlike units that train specifically to clear a room or other mission specific "specialized" training like the SEALS or a SWAT Team, etc Each person is responsible for the overall and specific zone. They have a pre established order of entry and have trained together in regards to what they would do.

    For a gaggle of officers to come... converge onto a scene. Every officer is going to act. As they are all watching the same threat.

    It's called human nature... self preservation. You see a threat. You react. Take a group of friends and have them react to a shooting (meaning one of them is the threat - have him draw on your group... everyone will most likely shoot).

    Now train with that same group... door entry and zoned responsibility. If you do it by the book - one to 1/2 of your group will fire while the others give "cover."

    Now with that said... Take a mixed group and you'll find that more than 80% will fire and you have just lost the cover aspect. Meaning you are left open to a flank attack. In a military or active building clearing scenario this could be tragic.

    So the training is limited... The simple answer is to say - Well... they need more training... Sometimes you have to put things into perspective and re-think what is truly best. It may be "we" need to adjust our ideas of training and what some things will and will not do.

    So why multiple shootings by multiple officers... simple human reaction in a very dynamic situation.


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    Last edited by oldkim; 06-17-2011 at 04:44 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo View Post
    About six shots fired by each officer? Sounds about right. One is taught to keep shooting until the subject stops his actions. And how often on this very forum (and every other pro-gun forum) do posters state, "I'm shooting to slide-lock?" Yes.

    Why the need to turn this into a thread about police marksmanship?

    What departments would those be? 70% passes on most PPCs and is the minimum I'm familiar with, but there's no reason to get wrapped around the axle with numbers, because, as OldKim notes, a gunfight is not a static event.

    If you've never experienced the two-way range, don't reflexively judge the actions of those that have.
    No one should shoot until the slide locks back unles there is still an active threat, I always shake my head when anyone says that. A Pharmacist in Oklahoma just found out that was a bad idea, life in prison after a good shoot because he retrieved a firearm and shot the BG some more. Shoot to stop the threat when the threat stops stop shooting.

    The 2 way shooting range, you need to experiance it to understand it.

    Glad to see you back posting, I dont always agree with you but I do appreciate the LE perspective, thanks

  12. #12
    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    At least in this case a lot of the 23 rounds fired hit the subject. Better than the reports where police open fire on a subject, shoot 20-30 rounds, and don't hit anything.
    From the article: "...died from multiple gunshot wounds."

    Multiple equals more than one.
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  13. #13
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    No one should shoot until the slide locks back unles there is still an active threat, I always shake my head when anyone says that. A Pharmacist in Oklahoma just found out that was a bad idea, life in prison after a good shoot because he retrieved a firearm and shot the BG some more. Shoot to stop the threat when the threat stops stop shooting.

    The 2 way shooting range, you need to experiance it to understand it.

    Glad to see you back posting, I dont always agree with you but I do appreciate the LE perspective, thanks
    +1

    I must say though that when the SHTF I think most peoples adrenaline will take over and they will empty the gun. But agree it isn't good to promote that thinking. Like Bo said shoot to stop.
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  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    orphan said
    The 2 way shooting range, you need to experiance it to understand it.
    I have fired on this range. On my first experiance I did go to slide lock. I got better at it

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