Open Carry in a VA State Park

OK here is my question. Is it really legal to OC in a VA State Park? I researched the topic a little and I can find the code which says it is ok to CC in a VA State PArk and expressly forbids any other form of carry.

4VAC5-30-200. Firearms.

No person except employees, police officers, or officers of the department shall carry or possess firearms of any description, or airguns, within the park. This regulation shall not apply in areas designated for hunting by the Department of Conservation and Recreation. This regulation also shall not apply to the carrying of concealed handguns within state parks by holders of a valid concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to § 18.2-308 of the Code of Virginia.

I have read in the news where the governor has 'reportedly' stated that this section of the law is not to be enforced. But in searching the governor's website I cannot find any official document that states such. So my question is what is to prevent a sheriff or police officer (or even DGIF) from enforcing this? I figure it would not be initially in your favor should some LEO decide that he didn't get the memo and the memo isn't law anyway. I did not see any official looking letter on VCDL's website either. Of course in a year or two with the UN Small Arms Treaty it might not matter anyway since I believe the current administration is attempting to end-run the constitution and the spineless representatives in DC may allow it (sans Rand Paul).

From this I can CC and maybe OC but OC would be at risk of being a test case which I really would not like to be.

I believe on 7/7/2011 is legal to start carrying. I THINK. I saw it somewhere on this forum.

Here it is!

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...s-CC-and-OC-in-State-Forests-effective-7-7-11

McDonnell finalizes CC and OC in State Forests, effective 7/7/11
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6750


Virginia: Governor McDonnell Confirms Changes to Allow Lawful Carry of a Firearm in State Forests!

Sunday, May 08, 2011

On May 6, Governor Robert F. McDonnell approved changes to the Virginia Department of Forestry’s Virginia State Forest Regulation 4VAC10-30-170. The approved changes went into immediate effect.

The changes will permit law-abiding Virginians to carry a firearm in State Forests. These changes now allow for both the lawful carrying of concealed firearms by those who possess a concealed carry permit, as well as open carrying for anyone in lawful possession of a firearm.

The new language to the Administrative Code is below:

4VAC10-30-170. Explosives, firearms, etc.

No person shall bring into or have in any forest any explosive or explosive substance. This regulation shall not apply to the lawful carrying of firearms and firearm ammunition.

Please contact Governor McDonnell by e-mail and thank him for improving Virginia’s regulatory environment for lawful firearm owners!

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ocholsteroc said:

I believe on 7/7/2011 is legal to start carrying. I THINK. I saw it somewhere on this forum.

Here it is!

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...s-CC-and-OC-in-State-Forests-effective-7-7-11

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1 - State Forests are not State Parks.
2 - As of 6/7/11 a NEW comment period began regarding the change in VAC related to carry in State Forests. The 7/7/11 date is not to be taken as official and the new law of the land. If you want to take your chances you need to be prepared for the possible consequences.
3 - OC in State Parks: per http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf that restriction was lifted 1/20/11.

stay safe.

skidmark said:

1 - State Forests are not State Parks.
2 - As of 6/7/11 a NEW comment period began regarding the change in VAC related to carry in State Forests. The 7/7/11 date is not to be taken as official and the new law of the land. If you want to take your chances you need to be prepared for the possible consequences.
3 - OC in State Parks: per http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf that restriction was lifted 1/20/11.

stay safe.

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Skidmark is right, but it is also important to note the law did not change; the governor's order directs the law not be enforced.

In a letter dated Jan. 14, McDonnell (R) directed the Department of Conservation & Recreation to cease enforcing regulations prohibiting open carry. The governor, referring to an opinion he had formulated as attorney general in September 2008 at the request of then-Sen. Kenneth Cuccinelli (R), said the agency had exceeded its statutory authority in banning people from carrying firearms openly.

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(Source: Washingtoon Post, 1/19/2011)

skidmark said:

1 - State Forests are not State Parks.
2 - As of 6/7/11 a NEW comment period began regarding the change in VAC related to carry in State Forests. The 7/7/11 date is not to be taken as official and the new law of the land. If you want to take your chances you need to be prepared for the possible consequences.
3 - OC in State Parks: per http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf that restriction was lifted 1/20/11.

stay safe.

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Opps I am sorry, I thought it was State parks :banghead:

LAw versus enforcement

I was also taken by the VA state parks vs state forest. But the fact that the newspapers and the VCDL page might state that the governor declares no enforcement does not save you from the law. I would like something more tangible because I believe that if one carried and were taken to courts the courts would not care what the newspapers reported, nor even a purported letter from the governor, the courts probably will only care about the letter of law.

nuc65 said:

I believe that if one carried and were taken to courts the courts would not care what the newspapers reported, nor even a purported letter from the governor, the courts probably will only care about the letter of law.

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So, in essence it's a trick, designed to lure people to OC and then arrest them and say 'oh sorry, we don't go by the Governer's rule, it's still a law'.

IANAL but IIRC it is an administrative code written by the state park system that prohibited OC. It was not a state law passed by the legislature and signed by the Govner.

Does VAC carry anymore than a trespassing charge?

Wolf_shadow said:

IANAL but IIRC it is an administrative code written by the state park system that prohibited OC. It was not a state law passed by the legislature and signed by the Govner.

Does VAC carry anymore than a trespassing charge?

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Yes. It's a Class 1 Misdemeanor - up to $1,000 fine and/or 12 months in jail.

stay safe.

Badger Johnson said:

So, in essence it's a trick, designed to lure people to OC and then arrest them and say 'oh sorry, we don't go by the Governer's rule, it's still a law'.

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I don't think the governor would be complicit in such. What I think is that if one were arrested the system would prosecute you irregardless of what the governor said. I cannot find a letter from the governor directing all the LEAs to ignore this rule so how would one protect oneself from an overzealous officer. Because as is the subject of numerous posts there are no overzealous officers, and all LEOs are fully conscious and fully informed of the law.

I am cynical enough not to trust a boon on the word of the newspaper, or on the word of handgunlaw.us. Outside of what is printed in the law, including the rules of the various state agencies why would I trust the government, because they have my best interest at heart?

Badger Johnson said:

So, in essence it's a trick, designed to lure people to OC and then arrest them and say 'oh sorry, we don't go by the Governer's rule, it's still a law'.

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The Governor is the boss of all the Executive Branch employees. If he says not to enforce a section of the Virginia Administrative Code then that's the way it works out. Yes, someone could decide to bring enforcement action against an individual but the courts would have to go along with the Governor's declaration. As for the continuing and future employment of the folks who decided to try to enforce the VAC after the Governor said not to - well, I leave that to your imagination.

Why certain folks presume that everything is a vast conspiracy against them, with the intent to land them in jail if the cops do not kill them before they get there, is beyond me. Understanding the workings of the Virginia Administrative Code is not that arcane nor that difficult for most 6th graders. Heck, even graduates of most law schools can figure it out if given a basic cheat sheet.

stay safe.

skidmark said:

The Governor is the boss of all the Executive Branch employees. If he says not to enforce a section of the Virginia Administrative Code then that's the way it works out. Yes, someone could decide to bring enforcement action against an individual but the courts would have to go along with the Governor's declaration. As for the continuing and future employment of the folks who decided to try to enforce the VAC after the Governor said not to - well, I leave that to your imagination.

Why certain folks presume that everything is a vast conspiracy against them, with the intent to land them in jail if the cops do not kill them before they get there, is beyond me. Understanding the workings of the Virginia Administrative Code is not that arcane nor that difficult for most 6th graders. Heck, even graduates of most law schools can figure it out if given a basic cheat sheet.

stay safe.

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It isn't so much the issue that it is a conspiracy only that I can find no directive from the governor's office stating such. I can only find it in the newspapers and miscellaneous websites. Point me to the official written word and I would be more than happy to conclude that I would have no problem if I were to OC in a VA state park.

Badger Johnson said:

So, in essence it's a trick, designed to lure people to OC and then arrest them and say 'oh sorry, we don't go by the Governer's rule, it's still a law'.

Click to expand...

Comments like this do nothing to define the legal status and only serve to interject negative bias. That and you are wrong.

Violation of the VAC rules may have legal penalties attached to them. The Governor may direct, with force of law, that they not be enforced or create a new standard.

Governors historically have issued executive orders based upon the authority inherent in the constitutional duty of a Governor to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed."

Prior opinions of the Attorney General recognize that the Constitution grants to the Governor a general reservoir of powers as chief executive of the Commonwealth.

Thus, the authority of the Governor to issue executive orders is well established in the law and history of the Commonwealth.
http://www.oag.state.va.us/OPINIONS/2006opns/05-094w.pdf

nuc65 said:

It isn't so much the issue that it is a conspiracy only that I can find no directive from the governor's office stating such. I can only find it in the newspapers and miscellaneous websites. Point me to the official written word and I would be more than happy to conclude that I would have no problem if I were to OC in a VA state park.

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You are going to have to contact the Governor's Office, or the Secretary of the Department of Conservation and Recreation, if you want to see a copy of the letter that he sent. Correspondence of that nature is not normally made public.

However, I seriously doubt that the following, among many others, would report that he did in fact send such a letter instructing the Secretary of the Department of Conservation and Recreation if that were not the case.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/local...nnell-guns-should-be-allowed-va-parks-forests

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2011/01/gun_rights_advocates_celebrate.html

http://hamptonroads.com/2011/01/mcdonnell-ends-ban-open-guns-state-parks

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=131705&catid=283

http://athleticbusiness.com/article...criticize allowing them in parks, restaurants

http://thepocomokepubliceye.blogspot.com/2011/01/gov-bob-mcdonnell-ends-ban-on-guns-in.html

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=6129

http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/pr...011/1676/Virginia-Ends-Gun-Ban-in-State-Parks

http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/...ll-order-oks-openly-carrying-firea-ar-785950/

stay safe.

Grapeshot said:

Comments like this do nothing to define the legal status and only serve to interject negative bias. That and you are wrong.

Violation of the VAC rules may have legal penalties attached to them. The Governor may direct, with force of law, that they not be enforced or create a new standard.

Governors historically have issued executive orders based upon the authority inherent in the constitutional duty of a Governor to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed."

Prior opinions of the Attorney General recognize that the Constitution grants to the Governor a general reservoir of powers as chief executive of the Commonwealth.

Thus, the authority of the Governor to issue executive orders is well established in the law and history of the Commonwealth.
http://www.oag.state.va.us/OPINIONS/2006opns/05-094w.pdf

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The governor may direct the executive branch but does not direct the judicial branch. You all can quote to your hearts content the newspapers and other media sites, but I have seen misinformation in print enough times that I don't have to trust my life to the word of newspaper which may sway public opinion but does not carry the weight of the law.

It seems that here everyone is bent on saying don't worry about it. The newspapers all said such and such, and the governor wrote a letter. I do not think it unreasonable to ask to see the official letter in order to protect myself. I do not understand why you all vehemently deny that the official letter is needed and continue to point to newspapers and MM sites. Skidmark's case should be an indicator, imho, that the various LEAs don't always play by the rules, in fact how many times has it been pointed out the 'rules' that LEOs don't have to play by.

So, I inquire, why is it so upsetting that I ask to see the 'official' directive?

Grapeshot said:

Comments like this do nothing to define the legal status and only serve to interject negative bias. That and you are wrong.

Violation of the VAC rules may have legal penalties attached to them. The Governor may direct, with force of law, that they not be enforced or create a new standard.

Governors historically have issued executive orders based upon the authority inherent in the constitutional duty of a Governor to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed."

Prior opinions of the Attorney General recognize that the Constitution grants to the Governor a general reservoir of powers as chief executive of the Commonwealth.

Thus, the authority of the Governor to issue executive orders is well established in the law and history of the Commonwealth.
http://www.oag.state.va.us/OPINIONS/2006opns/05-094w.pdf

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Sorry, Grapeshot, in my previous post I neglected to point out that this directive was not an executive order issued by the governor. I searched and read all of his executive directives and it was no place to be found. This is why I am looking for it. I would be happy to be incorrect if someone can point me to a copy or even send me a copy I have yet to see this purported letter.

skidmark said:

You are going to have to contact the Governor's Office, or the Secretary of the Department of Conservation and Recreation, if you want to see a copy of the letter that he sent. Correspondence of that nature is not normally made public.

However, I seriously doubt that the following, among many others, would report that he did in fact send such a letter instructing the Secretary of the Department of Conservation and Recreation if that were not the case.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/local...nnell-guns-should-be-allowed-va-parks-forests

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2011/01/gun_rights_advocates_celebrate.html

http://hamptonroads.com/2011/01/mcdonnell-ends-ban-open-guns-state-parks

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=131705&catid=283

http://athleticbusiness.com/article...criticize allowing them in parks, restaurants

http://thepocomokepubliceye.blogspot.com/2011/01/gov-bob-mcdonnell-ends-ban-on-guns-in.html

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=6129

http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/pr...011/1676/Virginia-Ends-Gun-Ban-in-State-Parks

http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/...ll-order-oks-openly-carrying-firea-ar-785950/

stay safe.

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While I was at SML (VA Park) a preceding weekend I took note of the various agencies that were on hand in an enforcement capacity. Parks and Recs officers were not there. There was a Bedford County Sheriff, a local police officer and a state police officer. I wouldn't trust that groups outside of the conservation department would have received any training on 'rules' that weren't in the books or that they received a copy of the memo. Nor do I believe that they would care if I pointed them to all these newspaper sites. Instead if in doubt they would look up the rules for the state parks and say, see, right here in black and white.

NUC

Why don't you come to the VCDl picinic at Pocahontas St. Park in Aug? I'd bet there will be some folks who will OC at the picnic in the park. If anyone gets arrested, I'm sure it'll make the news.

As for Pocahontas State Park, the signs at the parking areas USED to say: Firearms prohibited except those with concealed carry permits. That has since been taped over.

I think they all got the memo. If you're still nervous about OC at the state park, then cover up.

doug23838 said:

NUC

Why don't you come to the VCDl picinic at Pocahontas St. Park in Aug? I'd bet there will be some folks who will OC at the picnic in the park. If anyone gets arrested, I'm sure it'll make the news.

As for Pocahontas State Park, the signs at the parking areas USED to say: Firearms prohibited except those with concealed carry permits. That has since been taped over.

I think they all got the memo. If you're still nervous about OC at the state park, then cover up.

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I think it's time for me to get the official memo Doug. I don't believe they could successfully prosecute at this point even if they wanted to. I think that it would become an estoppel by entrapment but I sure would like to get User's opinion on it.

I'll see if McDonnell's office will turn a copy loose tomorrow, certified if possible.

Grapeshot said:

Comments like this do nothing to define the legal status and only serve to interject negative bias. That and you are wrong.

Violation of the VAC rules may have legal penalties attached to them. The Governor may direct, with force of law, that they not be enforced or create a new standard.

Click to expand...

I have to assume that you guys who talk about being 'negative' on LEO actions just do not read the paper or visit websites, where there is a growing concern that we are heading to a police state. If ANYTHING, my comments, which are often couched as hyperbole, show 'central tendency', not negative bias.

LEOs who chase after and smash cameras and point guns at people videoing; LEOs who openly state 'we'll find a reason to arrest you, it's not difficult'.

What more do you need to even rise to the level of paranoia and conspiracy to make the people so afraid of LE that they just cower and babble and give away their rights. ONCE you are IN THE SYSTEM you can (though not all do) find yourself in a finance sucking liberty destroying loop and you barely get out with your sanity. They want to clear cases and indict someone, and they don't really much care if they got the right guy in a LARGE number of cases.

One example of evidence planting is too much. We see hundreds. That LEOs can LIE is just wrong. I fear them MUCH MORE than I fear any single criminal and you're just naive if you don't see the threat they pose if you get on their wrong side.

People talk about the vast majority of cops being good. It's BS. The vast majority are crooked and corrupt (some to a smaller degree). I doubt you could find one who has not take a bribe, looked the other way, received payoffs or taken money or drugs from the scene at some time in their career. It's just too tempting and I would not want to be in that position because I'm human and they don't pay LEOs enough to prevent this temptation.