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Thread: The Proverbial Test Case. Volunteers?

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    Founder's Club Member Jojo712's Avatar
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    The Proverbial Test Case. Volunteers?

    From another thread. Thank you Rich7553 for the inspiration:



    Originally Posted by Rich7553
    A LEO has no authority to "pull anyone's permit", and violation of either 790.053 or 790.10 does not constitute a felony, therefore in neither case is one's license at risk.

    Jojo712 asks:
    So who would volunteer to be our test case?

    The pre-requisites are:

    1. You don't care too much about your firearms license being in jeopardy for a little while (6 months, max)

    2. You've got a gun that you wouldn't mind having in evidence for a bit while the case is ventilated

    3. You've got a shirt that rides a little too high when you sit down and exposes your holster and a tiny piece of your gun while you sit

    4. You've got a nearby Dunkin' Donuts and a friend across the street with a camera, recording (not for legal purposes, but for leverage purposes)

    5. You walk in, plop down, as your shirt rides up order a donut, say hi to the officers and smile: "Good evenin' ladies an' gentlemen. How 'bout those Miami Heat?"

    This can go a thousand ways, and all will go viral immediately. Test cases, anyone? I think this should be a thread of its own.
    Last edited by Jojo712; 06-19-2011 at 12:57 AM.

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    Regular Member crashnjax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    From another thread. Thank you Rich7553 for the inspiration:



    Originally Posted by Rich7553
    A LEO has no authority to "pull anyone's permit", and violation of either 790.053 or 790.10 does not constitute a felony, therefore in neither case is one's license at risk.

    Jojo712 asks:
    So who would volunteer to be our test case?

    The pre-requisites are:

    1. You don't care too much about your firearms license being in jeopardy for a little while (6 months, max)

    2. You've got a gun that you wouldn't mind having in evidence for a bit while the case is ventilated

    3. You've got a shirt that rides a little too high when you sit down and exposes your holster and a tiny piece of your gun while you sit

    4. You've got a nearby Dunkin' Donuts and a friend across the street with a camera, recording (not for legal purposes, but for leverage purposes)

    5. You walk in, plop down, as your shirt rides up order a donut, say hi to the officers and smile: "Good evenin' ladies an' gentlemen. How 'bout those Miami Heat?"

    This can go a thousand ways, and all will go viral immediately. Test cases, anyone? I think this should be a thread of its own.
    I like the idea, yet am hesitant. Isn't this like poking a caged animal at a zoo? Kind of reminds me of those whale wars idiots that intentionally put them selves into trouble then call media to have it twisted around to make it look like the japs' started it. Please dont offense to this remark, just my opinion.
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    Regular Member ~*'Phoenix'*~'s Avatar
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    I, too, like the idea, or some variant of it. 'Unfortunalely,' I can't risk getting expelled for being arrested, however wrongfully, for a weapons offense, no matter how illegite the charges are.
    American Government 101:
    The Executive branch's job is to provide celebrity figureheads for the pandering populace.
    The Legislative branch's job is to progressively destroy our freedoms for the "safety" of "We the Sheeple."
    The Judicial branch's job is to look like they're defending our freedoms against the abuses of the Legislative branch, only by token gestures that do not interfere is this pivotal process, but enough to deceive "We the People" into a false sense of security.

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    Regular Member crashnjax's Avatar
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    My opinion on this that just make sure you have plenty of friends with you in case something does happen, but dont go looking for trouble. Please dont be offended, but you know i will fight so hard to right the constitution and restore rights here in Florida the second i get in office. Gun rights is just the tip for me and you know that Jojo.
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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure this scenario will happen without the need for volunteers to be a test case. In which jurisdiction it occurs is anyone's guess, but it is likely to occur in Palm Beach, Miami Dade, or some other restrictive jurisdiction.
    Rich
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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    I briefly and openly carried at a suntrust ATM today. There were two cars in the parking lot with people in them. The sky didn't fall. Was the 90 seconds I was out of my car brief enough or pushing it?
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member rvrctyrngr's Avatar
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    Dunno, Jojo....you offering a pro bono defense?

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    I carry OWB at 3 o clock with a button up shirt w/buttons undone. My firearm constantly is BRIEFLY visible due to the wind. Is it safe to keep this number on speed dial? 305.6685656 ? Jojo?

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    I briefly and openly carried at a suntrust ATM today. There were two cars in the parking lot with people in them. The sky didn't fall. Was the 90 seconds I was out of my car brief enough or pushing it?
    If I remember correctly, the law now reads that it is not a violation for someone who is carrying IN A CONCEALED MANNER to briefly expose it. If you just straight up have it OWB on your belt that is not a concealed manner. Know what I mean? If it's under your shirt and you reach for something, it was in a concealed manner but ended up getting exposed somehow. Just walking out with straight up open carry is not what the law says.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    If I remember correctly, the law now reads that it is not a violation for someone who is carrying IN A CONCEALED MANNER to briefly expose it. If you just straight up have it OWB on your belt that is not a concealed manner. Know what I mean? If it's under your shirt and you reach for something, it was in a concealed manner but ended up getting exposed somehow. Just walking out with straight up open carry is not what the law says.
    It was concealed when I got out of my car, then I unconcealed it.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    It was concealed when I got out of my car, then I unconcealed it.
    touché...

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    you got a camera and spare time to film i got nothing better to do.

    anybody in pasco FL?

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southern boy View Post
    you got a camera and spare time to film i got nothing better to do.

    anybody in pasco FL?
    i replied to the other thread...but i'm game once i get back from new mexico....

    i live in bradenton. i could prolly get one of my many cop friends to "arrest" me so we can get rolling lol
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    Regular Member ADulay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    3. You've got a shirt that rides a little too high when you sit down and exposes your holster and a tiny piece of your gun while you sit.
    Hmm, I've got that one covered now. When I reach for the french fries, my vest does ride up a bit and always has and nobody has gone screaming out of McDonald's because of a MWAG!

    I still think that there is more temporary worry about this "briefly and accidental" exposure than needs to be.

    It has been, and will continue to be, a non-event.

    AD

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    What's it gonna cost? You KNOW I'll do it... But I'm Gun Rich and Cash Poor.

    I carry my 1911 OWB under an un-tucked button-down shirt or t-shirt. I usually expose it as I get in the car by tucking my shirt between it and my body to prevent all my salts from rusting it while sitting. Since it's cross-draw right up against the door, it is then concealed from normal sight as I drive. Dark tint, too.

    You'd have to be right up against the door, about 6'6" tall, looking straight down, the window would have to be rolled down, and you'd have to know exactly what you were looking for; in order to see it while I'm driving. Definitely fits the definition of concealed while making it more comfortable to drive with it not tucked under the shirt.

    I've noticed that Officers in FL have started approaching from the passenger side during traffic stops. They would never know it was there unless I told them.

    My aversion to humans already precludes me entering any establishment and sitting down. I just plain don't do it. I don't like my steel touching me, I make it rust immediately. My body chemistry just doesn't like steel. And I don't like humans. It works out.

    So far, as described elsewhere, I've only managed to scare the b'jesus out of cashiers while briefly exposing as I reach for my money. I believe this was the explicit intent of the law; how could it NOT happen?! I dare anyone to create an explanation...

    I can only hope that my 'brief exposures' distract LP long enough that they get robbed blind while I'm there.

    I spend less than 5 minutes in a store. I go in, I grab my crap, I get out. Usually under 5 minutes. What is the average Police Response time? And my exposure occurs as I'm leaving, right as I pay... What are the odds that any Cop is going to encounter me? Virtually zero. If I were a bad guy, I'd get away with it... Good thing I'm not.

    No common-sense in any of this. See signature.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Is the intent to provide case law on what accidental exposure is not a violation of Florida law?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Regular Member ~*'Phoenix'*~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Is the intent to provide case law on what accidental exposure is not a violation of Florida law?
    That seems to be the intent. Best wishes to anyone who's up for being a test-case.
    American Government 101:
    The Executive branch's job is to provide celebrity figureheads for the pandering populace.
    The Legislative branch's job is to progressively destroy our freedoms for the "safety" of "We the Sheeple."
    The Judicial branch's job is to look like they're defending our freedoms against the abuses of the Legislative branch, only by token gestures that do not interfere is this pivotal process, but enough to deceive "We the People" into a false sense of security.

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    Founder's Club Member Jojo712's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashnjax View Post
    I like the idea, yet am hesitant. Isn't this like poking a caged animal at a zoo? Kind of reminds me of those whale wars idiots that intentionally put them selves into trouble then call media to have it twisted around to make it look like the japs' started it. Please dont offense to this remark, just my opinion.
    No offense taken. If I were in your position, I wouldn't do it. Those who have written me thusfar are well apprised of the rights and privileges that they may be giving up for several months at a time (like possessing a gun, having your CCWL, having a professional license (like your license as a State officer and mine as a Florida Bar Attorney) suspended while the issue is ventilated. Hesitancy on your part is a sign of extreme intelligence. I want somebody who doesn't mind what I consider these heavy inconveniences to test it.

    Were it in Dade, I'd go for a pro-bono representation, of course, and we can get the NRA and Florida Carry to chime their attorneys in as Amicus. The backing would be intense, and the fallout could be the quashing of the "briefly" section of the law to be deemed as "vague and ambiguous," or (my favorite SOCUS language of all, from Furman v. Georgia, 1973) "tentative and fragmentary." I would enjoy this a great deal, but it takes a specially dedicated person who is willing to test it or (as hammer6 asserted) they may just fall into my lap once the LEOs cannot help themselves and start making arrests based on old law (or vague new law).

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member Jojo712's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    What's it gonna cost? You KNOW I'll do it... But I'm Gun Rich and Cash Poor.

    I carry my 1911 OWB under an un-tucked button-down shirt or t-shirt. I usually expose it as I get in the car by tucking my shirt between it and my body to prevent all my salts from rusting it while sitting. Since it's cross-draw right up against the door, it is then concealed from normal sight as I drive. Dark tint, too.

    You'd have to be right up against the door, about 6'6" tall, looking straight down, the window would have to be rolled down, and you'd have to know exactly what you were looking for; in order to see it while I'm driving. Definitely fits the definition of concealed while making it more comfortable to drive with it not tucked under the shirt.

    I've noticed that Officers in FL have started approaching from the passenger side during traffic stops. They would never know it was there unless I told them.

    My aversion to humans already precludes me entering any establishment and sitting down. I just plain don't do it. I don't like my steel touching me, I make it rust immediately. My body chemistry just doesn't like steel. And I don't like humans. It works out.

    So far, as described elsewhere, I've only managed to scare the b'jesus out of cashiers while briefly exposing as I reach for my money. I believe this was the explicit intent of the law; how could it NOT happen?! I dare anyone to create an explanation...

    I can only hope that my 'brief exposures' distract LP long enough that they get robbed blind while I'm there.

    I spend less than 5 minutes in a store. I go in, I grab my crap, I get out. Usually under 5 minutes. What is the average Police Response time? And my exposure occurs as I'm leaving, right as I pay... What are the odds that any Cop is going to encounter me? Virtually zero. If I were a bad guy, I'd get away with it... Good thing I'm not.

    No common-sense in any of this. See signature.
    If I were still working in your area, the cost would be zero. The repercussions are not simple, though, as you'll face a suspension of your CCP, temporary forfeiture of the firearm you were caught with (be sure it's some scratched up Saturday Night Special), and possible issues with your job (depending on your job and professional licenses held). It's not an easy choice and we may just want to wait for someone without the awareness (on both the citizen and LEO sides) to make the mistake on which we can piggyback and capitalize.

  20. #20
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    My two questions (admittedly, I'm ignorant) are 1: Will a prosecution really occur? I know arrests/hassles will continue unabated, but will people really test this, intentionally or not, and will a prosecutor now bring charges? It could be years before such happened.And 2: How sure are we a government court will rule against itself. We could loose or the court could just revert to pre-SB 234 law. No?
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  21. #21
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    I have no problem with testing the law. I carried with just a shirt over my firearm last Tuesday in an area frequented by police and my shirt did blow open. One of the people with me was disgusted and said so, and the rest just shrugged.

    But this is the last step I would think, not the first.

    How about designing some common situations and requesting the AG's opinion on them?





    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    From another thread. Thank you Rich7553 for the inspiration:

    Originally Posted by Rich7553
    A LEO has no authority to "pull anyone's permit", and violation of either 790.053 or 790.10 does not constitute a felony, therefore in neither case is one's license at risk.

    Jojo712 asks:
    So who would volunteer to be our test case?

    The pre-requisites are:

    1. You don't care too much about your firearms license being in jeopardy for a little while (6 months, max)

    2. You've got a gun that you wouldn't mind having in evidence for a bit while the case is ventilated

    3. You've got a shirt that rides a little too high when you sit down and exposes your holster and a tiny piece of your gun while you sit

    4. You've got a nearby Dunkin' Donuts and a friend across the street with a camera, recording (not for legal purposes, but for leverage purposes)

    5. You walk in, plop down, as your shirt rides up order a donut, say hi to the officers and smile: "Good evenin' ladies an' gentlemen. How 'bout those Miami Heat?"

    This can go a thousand ways, and all will go viral immediately. Test cases, anyone? I think this should be a thread of its own.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    If I were still working in your area, the cost would be zero.
    Miami is a bit of a drive. Not to mention, I hate that place. :-p

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    The repercussions are not simple, though, as you'll face a suspension of your CCP
    I can live with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    temporary forfeiture of the firearm you were caught with (be sure it's some scratched up Saturday Night Special)
    Check

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    possible issues with your job
    Unemployed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    professional licenses held
    None

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    It's not an easy choice and we may just want to wait for someone without the awareness (on both the citizen and LEO sides) to make the mistake on which we can piggyback and capitalize.
    I'm not much on waiting around for other people to do things for me.

    So, I've got everything except the "lives nearby." Any way around that? Wanna borrow my car? I've almost got it set to run on free gas, woot!
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Jojo712's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    Miami is a bit of a drive. Not to mention, I hate that place. :-p



    I can live with that.



    Check



    Unemployed



    None



    I'm not much on waiting around for other people to do things for me.

    So, I've got everything except the "lives nearby." Any way around that? Wanna borrow my car? I've almost got it set to run on free gas, woot!
    A case like this would require multiple court appearances and an appeal, along with multiple instances of divine intervention. This means multiple car drives. Want to do it in Dade (or even Broward)?

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Imma see what I can sort out...
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  25. #25
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    I wouldn't personally want to be a test case, but if you are going to be one, you might want to consider doing it with an antique firearm (as defined under Florida law). I had looked into the antique firearm carry angle several years ago (so my memory may not be serving me well) but I believe that the way the statute read, it only applied to (modern) firearms as in you could (technically) still carry an antique firearm in the open. I'm not a lawyer so do the research on this. I've always thought that (organized or not) antique open carry may be a nice way to 'protest' Florida's unconstitutional open carry ban on modern arms.

    As for concealed carry of an antique firearm, the law seemed a bit ambiguous, so better to have a concealed carry permit.

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