The Proverbial Test Case. Volunteers?

I have no problem with testing the law. I carried with just a shirt over my firearm last Tuesday in an area frequented by police and my shirt did blow open. One of the people with me was disgusted and said so, and the rest just shrugged.

But this is the last step I would think, not the first.

How about designing some common situations and requesting the AG's opinion on them?

Jojo712 said:

From another thread. Thank you Rich7553 for the inspiration:

Originally Posted by Rich7553
A LEO has no authority to "pull anyone's permit", and violation of either 790.053 or 790.10 does not constitute a felony, therefore in neither case is one's license at risk.

Jojo712 asks:
So who would volunteer to be our test case?

The pre-requisites are:

1. You don't care too much about your firearms license being in jeopardy for a little while (6 months, max)

2. You've got a gun that you wouldn't mind having in evidence for a bit while the case is ventilated

3. You've got a shirt that rides a little too high when you sit down and exposes your holster and a tiny piece of your gun while you sit

4. You've got a nearby Dunkin' Donuts and a friend across the street with a camera, recording (not for legal purposes, but for leverage purposes)

5. You walk in, plop down, as your shirt rides up order a donut, say hi to the officers and smile: "Good evenin' ladies an' gentlemen. How 'bout those Miami Heat?"

This can go a thousand ways, and all will go viral immediately. Test cases, anyone? I think this should be a thread of its own.

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Jojo712 said:

If I were still working in your area, the cost would be zero.

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Miami is a bit of a drive. Not to mention, I hate that place.

Jojo712 said:

The repercussions are not simple, though, as you'll face a suspension of your CCP

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I can live with that.

Jojo712 said:

temporary forfeiture of the firearm you were caught with (be sure it's some scratched up Saturday Night Special)

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Check

Jojo712 said:

possible issues with your job

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Unemployed

Jojo712 said:

professional licenses held

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None

Jojo712 said:

It's not an easy choice and we may just want to wait for someone without the awareness (on both the citizen and LEO sides) to make the mistake on which we can piggyback and capitalize.

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I'm not much on waiting around for other people to do things for me.

So, I've got everything except the "lives nearby." Any way around that? Wanna borrow my car? I've almost got it set to run on free gas, woot!

ixtow said:

Miami is a bit of a drive. Not to mention, I hate that place.



I can live with that.



Check



Unemployed



None



I'm not much on waiting around for other people to do things for me.

So, I've got everything except the "lives nearby." Any way around that? Wanna borrow my car? I've almost got it set to run on free gas, woot!

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A case like this would require multiple court appearances and an appeal, along with multiple instances of divine intervention. This means multiple car drives. Want to do it in Dade (or even Broward)?

Imma see what I can sort out...

I wouldn't personally want to be a test case, but if you are going to be one, you might want to consider doing it with an antique firearm (as defined under Florida law). I had looked into the antique firearm carry angle several years ago (so my memory may not be serving me well) but I believe that the way the statute read, it only applied to (modern) firearms as in you could (technically) still carry an antique firearm in the open. I'm not a lawyer so do the research on this. I've always thought that (organized or not) antique open carry may be a nice way to 'protest' Florida's unconstitutional open carry ban on modern arms.

As for concealed carry of an antique firearm, the law seemed a bit ambiguous, so better to have a concealed carry permit.

To make a long story short, I was open carrying on the fuel dock today "BRIEFLY" while fueling.

The BRIEF exposure took as long as it took to refuel the boat and pay the bill. ($568)

Neither of the two dock masters or cashier said a word about it.

Got back on the boat and went fishing. (Actually we went looking for a decent place for lunch).

The wording in the law is a BRIEF exposure and says nothing about accidental exposure.

Now the legislature needs to nail down a good definition of BRIEF in this law.

AD

Fortunately or unfortunately defining brief can't be done. They just need to get strike briefly as soon as possible.

I briefly openly carried at a mechanic's office today. There is a problem with my truck so I got my gun out of the glovebox and put it on my waist (paddle holster) before I went inside to tell him what the problem was and give him the key. About 2 minutes tops. Nothing was said by the 4-5 people who saw it.

77zach said:

About 2 minutes tops. Nothing was said by the 4-5 people who saw it.

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So far I've found that to be the case for the last two months that I've been open carrying A LOT every day. Other than a few fisherman asking me about it, NOBODY says anything and nobody is calling in a MWAG call every time I stop somewhere.

Evidently the hysteria put forth by the FSA was "not true"? Perhaps they were just fibbing a bit to sway the sheep in the legislature?

AD

ADulay said:

So far I've found that to be the case for the last two months that I've been open carrying A LOT every day. Other than a few fisherman asking me about it, NOBODY says anything and nobody is calling in a MWAG call every time I stop somewhere.

Evidently the hysteria put forth by the FSA was "not true"? Perhaps they were just fibbing a bit to sway the sheep in the legislature?

AD

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I think I'm going to start OCing when there aren't any cops around. I'm not saying I'm going to break the law. Because in reality, no one knows what the law is.

My 'brief' exposures have only been for a few seconds at a time. And usually not intentional. Just expected with a real gun.

I might 'forget' to cover up for a minute or two today... That's still 'brief.'

I've been mulling the definition of 'brief.' It requires a frame of reference. Since we're talking about exposure of a carried firearm, I think the only rational thing to compare it to is the length of time it is carry and NOT exposed. We still don't know the 'duty cycle' or ratio of time exposed to time concealed... But I've been carrying concealed for decades. I don't think anyone can argue that 1:20 ratio is pretty darned brief. So, I could OC for a whole year and still be under the 1:20 ratio.... This law is crap. Leave it to a failed lawyer to dream it up, and a bunch of dunces like the Florida Senate to actually pass such slop.

So, 3 minutes exposed for every 57 minutes concealed? 1:20 is well within the realm of what any sane person would call 'brief.' But Lawmakers, Cops, Judges, and the crazy Lefty freaks that make MWAG calls aren't sane people, are they?

Lets do the math. If I carry concealed around my house for 22 hours and 48 minutes, I can OC in public for 1 hour and 12 minutes? The law doesn't define where the 'concealed' part of the duty cycle has to occur or where the exposure must occur.

Secondly, knowing if an exposure is 'brief' requires, aside from the definition of brief, knowing the period of time that exposure occurred. If one does not know when it started, or when it ended, one cannot define the time. And thus, regardless of what 'brief' is or isn't, one doesn't know how long it was exposed for and cannot argue the undefined term anyway!

Effing stupid.

ixtow said:

Secondly, knowing if an exposure is 'brief' requires, aside from the definition of brief, knowing the period of time that exposure occurred. If one does not know when it started, or when it ended, one cannot define the time. And thus, regardless of what 'brief' is or isn't, one doesn't know how long it was exposed for and cannot argue the undefined term anyway!

Effing stupid.

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Yep. I think I'll open carry in certain places when I don't see cops.

77zach said:

Yep. I think I'll open carry in certain places when I don't see cops.

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I'm not taking it that far yet. But I also live in College Democrat Land, and you don't. I made a College Student crap his pants at Publix on the first day. No exaggeration, he actually crapped his pants.

I doubt the Judge is going to see it our way. Be careful.

If you really want to, I'd scout for security cameras first. If you're not on tape walking around for half an hour, it's all hot air... As with the Cops, video evidence is hard to dispute. ;-)

ixtow said:

I'm not taking it that far yet. But I also live in College Democrat Land, and you don't. I made a College Student crap his pants at Publix on the first day. No exaggeration, he actually crapped his pants.

I doubt the Judge is going to see it our way. Be careful.

If you really want to, I'd scout for security cameras first. If you're not on tape walking around for half an hour, it's all hot air... As with the Cops, video evidence is hard to dispute. ;-)

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Yeah, it won't be to publix or the bank.

My one-fiftyeth of a Where's George...

Another thing to consider is that the words, "accidental", "unintentional" or "inadvertent" do NOT appear in the actual law. Although they were used in the descriptory portions of the bill, at times.
Therefore, intent is not addressed, and so long as the display is not "in an angry or threatening manner", then by all means, pull up those shirts.

Another item in the new law that I found interesting, was the addition of words to SS 790.06 (12)(a)..."A license issued under this section does not authorize any person to openly carry a handgun or carry a concealed weapon
or firearm into:"

Why would they include this section in addition to SS 790.053, unless they intend for CC'ers to uncover before entering into an establishment NOT on the prohibited list?

Interesting choices, if you ask me.

GoOfY-FoOt said:

Why would they include this section in addition to SS 790.053, unless they intend for CC'ers to uncover before entering into an establishment NOT on the prohibited list?

Interesting choices, if you ask me.

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It is strange. It's left over from when the bill actually had full OC in it. I would like to know if striking "..briefly and..." next session would require its own bill. I don't think it does, which is good because we can effectively bypass a hostile committee and avoid negative publicity.

77zach said:

It is strange. It's left over from when the bill actually had full OC in it. I would like to know if striking "..briefly and..." next session would require its own bill. I don't think it does, which is good because we can effectively bypass a hostile committee and avoid negative publicity.

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Yes, it does take a new bill to amend an existing law. That's what SB234 did. Amended 790.053 to include the 'briefly' verbiage, and 790.06 to allow DOACS to take fingerprints.

rvrctyrngr said:

Yes, it does take a new bill to amend an existing law. That's what SB234 did. Amended 790.053 to include the 'briefly' verbiage, and 790.06 to allow DOACS to take fingerprints.

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Certainly.

I only meant if it could be an amendment to another gun related bill in the next session instead of having a bill for the sole purpose of giving us OC.

77zach said:

Certainly.

I only meant if it could be an amendment to another gun related bill in the next session instead of having a bill for the sole purpose of giving us OC.

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Ahhhhh....makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. Could certainly happen that way.

Who's gonna be the lawyer to represent me? I am pretty sure I'm going to do it, I just need to get off my crutches first. That'll be another 3-4 weeks. I also need a cheap gun to carry. But I don't have a job that will be effected from this.

Let me know what's up, so we can get things rolling.

hammer6 said:

Who's gonna be the lawyer to represent me? I am pretty sure I'm going to do it, I just need to get off my crutches first. That'll be another 3-4 weeks. I also need a cheap gun to carry. But I don't have a job that will be effected from this.

Let me know what's up, so we can get things rolling.

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PM Jojo. How would this work though? A cop is going to see you and tell you to cover up, you can't refuse because then you'd lose. You'd have to get one to summarily arrest you and then get the DA to prosecute you......seems like a lot of difficulties.