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Thread: No OC at MCV - Medical College of VA (part of VCU)

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    No OC at MCV - Medical College of VA (part of VCU)

    I visited a friend at the Medical College of Va (part of VCU) today and to drop off my old laptop so he could keep up.

    What a horrible place!
    Since I had to go into the building my gun stayed in the car.

    Many years ago I was taken there and while there, wandered around outside dragging an IV and smoking. The place was surrounded by drug addicts and derelicts.

    Now they've built on to the hospital and it appears they hired all the addicts as security guards. There is one stumbling around every ten feet or so.

    The derelicts are still there though.

    Hopefully that will be the last time I set foot in a hospital, especially that one.

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    Security at MCV

    I worked there as a department manager for a couple years after I retired from the Army, and frequently was put in a position where I had to collar or chase thieves through or out of the hospital down the streets of Richmond (yes I was younger and in much better shape back then). Usually I'd end up chasing the miscreant past the security desk and yell to the guard to call the police. They sat on their lazy ass and did just that. None ever bothered to assist me. Even when I grabbed a compliant thief and took them to my office and called the VCU police, they'd ask me 40 questions to describe the guy and the circumstances over the phone while he was sitting in front of me before they dispatched an officer, and then it sometimes took 15-20 minutes for a cop to show up as I sat in the office waiting with the criminal. No guns allowed, for employees or visitors (fairly typical for hospitals), and the security guards were unarmed too.

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    With the "quality" of security officers I have seen at "VCU" medical center, the last thing anyone wants is for THEM to have guns, loaded or unloaded!

    It is true that most hospitals have a "No Weapons" policy.

  4. #4
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Most of my experiences at VCU Medical Center involve the ambulance entrance. There's usually a few VCU LEOs wandering about inside and out. They don't seem to be the most motivated LEOs though.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Since I had to go into the building my gun stayed in the car.

    Are you not allowed to carry there??
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  6. #6
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    Are you not allowed to carry there??
    Not in the building, it's VCU Campus.

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    Also a matter of interpretation

    The University (VCU) also claims the streets and sidewalks as theirs. No one has felt like fighting this yet but it was evidensed in their smoking ban. The mere sight of a firearm might cause appoplexy in the folks there.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    The University (VCU) also claims the streets and sidewalks as theirs. No one has felt like fighting this yet but it was evidensed in their smoking ban. The mere sight of a firearm might cause appoplexy in the folks there.
    Do you really think I'd let a smoking ban go

    I spent a lot of time going over the plats in the city. They do own some sidewalks but not all. Aside from one of those silly Guards waving their hands around, no problems.

    They've changed what they're saying now to not on campus.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    They can own some sidewalks all they want, but unless they assert control over them by denying common right-of-way passage at least one day a year they are going to have problems saying they can set rules about what I do while passing through/on their sidewalk(s). And no, "sidewalk closed for construction" does not count.

    stay safe.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Not in the building, it's VCU Campus.

    Isn't VCU like quasi government so wouldn't preemption fall into place? Like I work at UVA Medical they are quasi some of the employees are actually on the state retirement system. I do not know of any gun ban here, but then again I have not really researched it either.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    Isn't VCU like quasi government so wouldn't preemption fall into place? Like I work at UVA Medical they are quasi some of the employees are actually on the state retirement system. I do not know of any gun ban here, but then again I have not really researched it either.
    If you do a search here Jay, you'll find a lot of discussion about VCU. In short, they are one of only two (I think 2) colleges that have specific weapons policy's in the State Administrative code.

    It stands in spite of preemption. The GMU lawsuit defined their ability to restrict carry to buildings only. The grounds are fine. Students and staff are prohibited by School employment and student rules so they can't carry anywhere on campus.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If you do a search here Jay, you'll find a lot of discussion about VCU. In short, they are one of only two (I think 2) colleges that have specific weapons policy's in the State Administrative code.

    It stands in spite of preemption. The GMU lawsuit defined their ability to restrict carry to buildings only. The grounds are fine. Students and staff are prohibited by School employment and student rules so they can't carry anywhere on campus.
    Further, as things curently stand with preemption, VCU is not a local unit of government and therefore is not preempted from writing any firearm control rules.

    You are cordialy invited to contact your Delegate and Senator and ask them to either draft or co-sponsor legislation to add state agencies/boards/commissions/etc. to the provisions of state preemption.

    stay safe.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    thanks for the clarification
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If you do a search here Jay, you'll find a lot of discussion about VCU. In short, they are one of only two (I think 2) colleges that have specific weapons policy's in the State Administrative code.

    It stands in spite of preemption. The GMU lawsuit defined their ability to restrict carry to buildings only. The grounds are fine. Students and staff are prohibited by School employment and student rules so they can't carry anywhere on campus.
    Note that the GMU lawsuit did not address whether GMU had the statutory authority to enact their own firearm laws / restrictions under the authority already granted to GMU via the General Assembly. Rather, DiGiacinto (the complainant) claimed that GMU didn't have the authority to promulgate its regulation on the carriage of firearms, BECAUSE the university had created a separate, independent non-uniform portion of government not under the control of the General Assembly, which is not permissable under the Bill of Rights within the Virginia Constitution. The court found that GMU had not created a separate, independent non-uniform portion of government not answerable to the government of Virginia, thus DiGiacinto had no basis for his claim that the GMU did not have the authority to promulgate the rule.

    DiGiacinto neither addressed whether the university had the authority to regulate the carriage of firearms under the existing grant of authority already provided to it by the General Assembly, nor did the court address such an argument. The grant of authority to GMU to run its own affairs does not explicitly state that the university has the authority to enact its own firearm laws. Further, existing Code of Virginia law provides that state agencies (such as GMU) only have the authority to promulgate rules that are explicitly necessary for the agency to perform its function.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 06-22-2011 at 02:28 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Note that the GMU lawsuit did not address whether GMU had the statutory authority to enact their own firearm laws / restrictions under the authority already granted to GMU via the General Assembly. Rather, DiGiacinto (the complainant) claimed that GMU didn't have the authority to promulgate its regulation on the carriage of firearms, BECAUSE the university had created a separate, independent non-uniform portion of government not under the control of the General Assembly, which is not permissable under the Bill of Rights within the Virginia Constitution. The court found that GMU had not created a separate, independent non-uniform portion of government not answerable to the government of Virginia, thus DiGiacinto had no basis for his claim that the GMU did not have the authority to promulgate the rule.

    DiGiacinto neither addressed whether the university had the authority to regulate the carriage of firearms under the existing grant of authority already provided to it by the General Assembly, nor did the court address such an argument. The grant of authority to GMU to run its own affairs does not explicitly state that the university has the authority to enact its own firearm laws. Further, existing Code of Virginia law provides that state agencies (such as GMU) only have the authority to promulgate rules that are explicitly necessary for the agency to perform its function.
    Yep, DiGianto asked the wrong question IMHO, but with the answer came the opinion that they could restrict legal carry in their buildings , but NOT on the grounds thereof. In this case as George Mason goes, so goes VCU/MCV.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Man uses surgical gloves during sexual assault

    Man uses surgical gloves during sexual assault
    A distinct piece of clothing could help find the man who sexually assaulted a woman downtown early Saturday morning.

    The woman was attacked while walking alone around 2 a.m. in the 1100 block of East Clay Street. That's the heart of the VCU Medical Center campus.
    So, it's dangerous, now?
    The suspect ran away after the victim screamed. Jessica Bostic works in a lab only a few feet away.

    "I was like, 'Oh great. That's right in front of our building, our address,'" Bostic said. "It's pretty scary."

    She says what scares her even more is the suspect used blue surgical gloves, just like the ones she uses.

    "You don't know if it's someone else that could be working here or someone that has access to the building that can get in and get the gloves," she said. "That's even scarier, that if I'm in the building by myself and someone has access."
    Gee, too bad they can't carry guns in addition to nitrile gloves.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    It's Istanbul, not Constantinople...

    It ain't the Medical College of Virginia, no more, and it ain't VCU, neither. It's the "Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Authority". Va. Code sxn 23-50.16:3.

    As such, it is subject to Va. Code sxn 15.2-915, which prohibits authorities from enacting any ordinance or regulation relating to the ownership or possession of firearms and ammunition. "The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority..."

    Can we sue 'em now? Pleeeeze?
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  18. #18
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    It ain't the Medical College of Virginia, no more, and it ain't VCU, neither. It's the "Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Authority". Va. Code sxn 23-50.16:3.

    As such, it is subject to Va. Code sxn 15.2-915, which prohibits authorities from enacting any ordinance or regulation relating to the ownership or possession of firearms and ammunition. "The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority..."

    Can we sue 'em now? Pleeeeze?
    Wow. How did we miss this before? According to the notes, it looks like this law passed in 2000, which if I recall correctly, is before 15.2-915 took effect at all (at least in its current form)?

    Has anyone presented them with this point of view before now? Maybe they will have a smart lawyer who can see they are exposed to losing money...

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 07-25-2011 at 10:16 PM.

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    It ain't the Medical College of Virginia, no more, and it ain't VCU, neither. It's the "Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Authority". Va. Code sxn 23-50.16:3.

    As such, it is subject to Va. Code sxn 15.2-915, which prohibits authorities from enacting any ordinance or regulation relating to the ownership or possession of firearms and ammunition. "The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority..."

    Can we sue 'em now? Pleeeeze?
    It ain't no secret any mooore....

    23-50.16:3. Authority created; purposes.
    A. There is hereby created as a public body corporate and as a political subdivision of the Commonwealth, the Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Authority........

    15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.
    --snip--

    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency...............

    Also the question of sidewalks and public use thereof.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    It ain't the Medical College of Virginia, no more, and it ain't VCU, neither. It's the "Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Authority". Va. Code sxn 23-50.16:3.

    As such, it is subject to Va. Code sxn 15.2-915, which prohibits authorities from enacting any ordinance or regulation relating to the ownership or possession of firearms and ammunition. "The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority..."

    Can we sue 'em now? Pleeeeze?
    It would appear that this Authority isn't limited to Richmond. EVMS in Norfolk might also come under its purview.

    Va. Code sxn 23-50.16:3 "...The Authority is further authorized to exercise independently the powers conferred by this chapter in furtherance of its corporate and public purposes, and the Authority is directed to undertake the operation of teaching hospitals and related facilities and to maintain and, as appropriate, to expand the same, all for the benefit of the Commonwealth, its citizens and such other persons who might be served by the Authority."
    Last edited by 2a4all; 07-26-2011 at 12:07 AM.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  21. #21
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    This thread just got a LOT more interesting.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Correspondence just sent to Col. John Venuti. Chief VCU Police Department, requesting training and directives as to how they will respond to citizens legally carrying at MCV and on campus at VCU.

    Will advise as to his response.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Yepper, they messed up by becoming an "authoritay", at least in the regard of trying to control people using their real estate. Time for a little OC while smoking cigs along Broad Street!

  24. #24
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Game-Changer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Correspondence just sent to Col. John Venuti. Chief VCU Police Department, requesting training and directives as to how they will respond to citizens legally carrying at MCV and on campus at VCU.

    Will advise as to his response.
    Yes, it has become a cliche, but could this be a game-changer?

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Yes, it has become a cliche, but could this be a game-changer?
    Eventually!
    Grape will get a short and kurt answer and be referred to VCU in house legal counsel who in turn will respond with mumbo jumbo.

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