So, I'm planning on a beer and wine license for the restaurant in the next couple of months and need to determine my policy on serving those carrying firearms. Since most everyone I know is Pro-Choice (well, with regard to the 2A anyway...), I wondered what policy rational gun-carriers think would be appropriate (you're all rational, right?).
We don't really need to rehash Idaho Code citations or anything. We all should know that "under the influence" remains vague under the law in the context of firearms. Besides, this is your chance to put yourself in the business owner's shoes, rather than only considering the individual's right.
I need a reasonable, easily-applied policy on what the response will be when a guy carrying a .45 steps to the counter and orders a pulled pork sandwich, potato salad, mixed fries and a Bud Light.
All OC-ers get 25 cents off if they order root beer!
A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow
Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life
If you begin to feel uncomfortable, based on your training and situational awareness, that a particular patron has had "enough," it's your call as to what to do next, whether they are carrying or not.
It's not illegal to be intoxicated and open carry.
It is illegal to be intoxicated (determined by the officer) and concealed carry, from what I understand.
Do with that, what you will.
A single beer, I doubt is an issue. More than that is riskier. Anyone responsible enough to carry probably won't drink a lot anyways. I know I don't drink at all if I'm carrying, but that's my personal choice.
Do what your insurance carrier says. Sadly, if they have a term in their insurance policy you don't abide by, you don't get covered. i wouldn't ask them specifically about OC or firearms, just get a full and complete copy of the policy.
"Under the influence" has different meanings for different folks under Idaho law. For a minor, it's .02 for a DUI. For someone with a CDL, it's .04. For the rest of us, it's .08. It gets tricky because the rules of statutory construction require that statutes be read "in pari materia," meaning on the same level, or such that they can be construed harmoniously. Since there is no accompanying statutory language in the CC "under the influence" statute, we have to look elsewhere for guidance, and the only place it appears is in the DUI code, or the general alcohol provisions, which are of no help because they only use the wholly indefinable term "intoxicated," for which there is no objective standard. Accordingly, the DUI laws are all we have that has an objective standard, and you should look to those for guidance.
Don't have to worry about the .02 level for minors, unless you plan on serving them.
It gets trickier when you deal with those with a CDL versus a standard drivers license, but it's reasonable to assume that the statutes regarding both, particularly the CDL's, place the burden of responsibility more so on the individual driver to determine whether they meet the DUI statute's level of intoxication. Logically, it would apply to those who are OC-ing, rather than the server as well.
Note that your servers, having presumably been through the TIPS program, know to not over-serve and to cut off those who get a load on, so to speak.
The only ones who have standing to go after you would be ABC/state/county/city for over-serving, or anyone injured by the OC'er as a result of being served to intoxication, which we know is highly unlikely given their law-abiding nature.
I'd say serve the OC'er the sandwich and a beer or two - they likely aren't going to be trouble, particularly if they're eating high-protein food while quaffing a coldie or two, but make sure when they ask they look/sound/smell sober. If they were drinking before they arrived, you don't want to be the icing on the cake or the over-server. If you don't feel comfortable serving them anything, it's your prerogative as a private property owner/business owner to deny them service. If they get into a huff, and if they've obviously already had a few, you don't want them as customers - send them away. Doubtful you'd ever have to with conscientious OC'ers like those on this board.
Just be smart and safe - as a commercial entity, you have a responsibility to the public that is greater than John Q. Public regarding alcohol sales, and are in the best position at the time to prevent injury (DUI, etc.), so are expected to act responsibly.
I'm sure you'll be fine - you have the smarts to ask around beforehand, which means you are a conscientious and community-minded businessperson, and are to be commended.
Last edited by DCR; 06-21-2011 at 11:02 PM.
I'm thinking that serving one beer per hour to OC'ers with a food order leaves them, my customers and me in a solid position.
That's easy enough to monitor with the register time stamps and provides the employees a consistent policy with no wiggle/arguing room.
My insurance has nothing to say about firearms. I asked specifically if there were any clauses relating to this or discounts available to businesses which prohibit firearms and have yet to find one that does so. My suspicion is that there might be some gun stores which address this but even there I'd be interesting in hearing first-hand from someone who can give the details, including the % discount, wording of the clause and the insurance carrier who writes the policy. Personally, I regard that as one of the myth's propagated by employees of banks, retail stores, malls and gun stores as a lame excuse to prohibit carry on-premise. I have far more respect for someone who just says plainly that they are against carry on their property. At least they have the strength of their conditions.
I will be running it by the local police and watching closely for their reactions.
I thought it was a felony to possess a firearm and be intoxicated.
That's the way conservation said it to me when they thought we had been drinking at a self patrolled shooting range in the boonies.
Please REMEMBER..., Different States have Different Laws.
What may be The Law in Missouri, may NOT be The Law in Idaho!
In Idaho State..., it is ONLY ILLEGAL to Carry a Concealed Firearm under The Influence of Alcohol, Relevant Idaho Code: 18-3302B.
I had this conversation with a friend I lost today. She surmised that carrying a firearm and drinking will result in someone dying. She cited an instance where a jr high friend of hers drank and shot himself in the head. Clearly most of us here will agree that this was a troubled teen and not a firearms problem. Alcohol could likely have been part of the issue but I think depressed teens don't need alcohol OR firearms to kill themselves.
Unfortunately for her, and her firearm-fearing friends, she invited me to a barbecue. It was a good barbecue, at least for myself and her dad, but, unbenknownst to me, approximately half of her friends decided they wanted to leave because they didn't feel safe. I asked why and she brought up the aformentioned situation. Her dad didn't mind at all, in fact he was surprised when she asked me to put the gun away. I then pointed out that she had invited me, so I figured she could explain to her friends that I won't drink and then shoot myself. She proceeded to tell me that they weren't afraid I'd do that, they were fearing for their safety! I then told her that she could feel free to tell these friends that I'm harmless and they will be safe, the weapon won't attack them.
So, our debate explored why it was okay for me to carry and drink. I told her that it was, first of all, legal. She asked me why I couldn't just "hide" it while I drank. I explained that Idaho state law prohibits such behavior and, as a law abiding citizen, I cannot, in good conceince, engage in such behavior. Then she asked me to surrender my right to bear arms in order to socialize with her and her friends. I told her that no friend of mine would ever ask me to do that, because they understand why such a right exists.
Surprise, surprise, nobody was shot at the barbecue. In fact, nobody was shot yesterday (accept one rabbit and three ground squirrels) when three of my buddies and I went hunting and drank beer. Actually, come to think of it there have been several occasions where I have been drinking with firearms around and never has anyone been hurt. So, Ed, I must side with the law on this one, you should allow carriers to drink as much as they want, provided they do not conceal thier weapons, do not engage in generally untrustworthy behavior, do not plan to drive home, or do not tell you the food is good. However, I feel I should add that, whatever you decide, I will still be your patron. I just might be stopping in a little more often for some beer. :-)
The issue is one or two beer can drastically affect someone differently.
I think a beer every half hour or hour is fair.
If they get intoxicated and popped for concealed carry, how would you know? It's concealed right?
Unless you can clearly see printing, there's nothing on you for it.
Hell, is Idaho even a state where the business is liable for letting someone drink themselves into a stupor? I don't know the law on that one.
When beer changes from being food - part of a meal - to "aiming fluid," that's when it becomes a problem.
Imbibio ergo sum -
(I drink, therefor I am...)
I personally don't drink when I OC, but I would not say that someone could not. Its not my place to intrude on someones rights.
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
-- George Washington
Maybe I need to find one of those little counter-top breathalyzers to aid with this project.
Of course that still doesn't address the issue of just what standard would be applied and it possibly would be damaging that it could be proven I "knew" they had a .03 when I served them one.
Not as easy as many pretend/posture/insist it should be.
At least you guys (more or less) are discussing the issue as one of policy. I posted the question on a restaurant owners forum and, despite warning them to talk about the service policy, it devolved into a "Why do you need a gun to eat in a restaurant?" and "Why allow them at all discussion, common sense says....." - sigh.
The biggest thing is to just go with what's legally correct.
If there's an extra liability for your restaurant for doing A & B but not C, then go with the one that's best for you.
Some states do say that if you serve someone that is clearly heavily intoxicated and they leave and drive drunk, you're partially liable.
That whole Ryan Dunn (******* star) fiasco relates to that. All the customers said he was completely smashed, the bar insist he didn't look that way because if they knew he was smashed and served him more/let me him take off in his vehicle they would be partially liable. (According to the chief he was something like 0.196 blood alcohol, more than 2.5x the legal limit....)
Honestly, one or two beers more than likely won't ever be an issue. If someone is slamming down beers while carrying, that'd be more worrisome. Someone casually drinking a beer over the course of a meal isn't.
It's the same with open carry. Someone carrying without putting much attention to the weapon isn't a problem. The guy who can't keep his hand off his firearm will cause me some worry.
Irresponsible behavior, regardless of whether drinking, carrying a gun, and driving a car will always be a risk no matter what. That's on the person doing it and not you.
Go with what's legal and you'll be set.
Regardless of whatever your policy is, Ed, you've got some fantastic food.
That'll keep us coming back!
Last edited by Zhukov; 06-25-2011 at 02:38 PM.
Gee, we can carry and drink in Nevada. No problems with carriers getting into drunken gun battles or shooting themselves accidentally. Stay within the law, no when to cut someone off if you need too---but the odds are that any carrier is going to be a pretty responsible sort that won't cause problems.
I'm with viking on this one. Oh, and sorry for the trouble you're having on the restaurant forum, Ed. It's too bad people on there can't offer you a real answer to your question.
Just curious, could you point to the other forum for me? PM if you would rather.
Do you have any problem serving alcohol to people who might be CCing car keys?? Drunk drivers kill more people in one day, than are killed by firearms in a year....
Lower the crime rate by lowering the criminal survival rate!
When people say 'God Bless America' I'm sure He says, "I gave you Texas!"
What if you offered everyone carrying (either OC or they discreetly show you they're cc),
that after they buy their first drink (whether it's soda or whatever their one ETOH of choice is),
they get their hand stamped or a wristband or something,
then 25c soda the rest of the night, but no more ETOH?
(Or if you want, make it 2 alcoholic drinks, then cheap soda.)
If they choose to keep drinking alcohol past the 1 or 2 drinks, no cheap soda for them, but the regular rules still apply about not being intoxicated.
If they're the designated driver/carrier, it works out well for them.
I've read that soda is one of those things that there's a large markup on,
so you could still make a profit even while offering it at a reduced price
and make it sort of a bonus for 2A-aware people,
while encouraging them to limit the alcohol consumption & stick around for a few Cokes while their body processes the alcohol...
Originally Posted by MLK, JrOriginally Posted by MSG LaigaieOriginally Posted by Proverbs 27:12Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
I would just treat carriers the same way I treat drivers. If they're getting tipsy i stop serving them. They dont like it they can leave. Besides, drunk drivers are MUCH more dangerous than drunken carriers.
I usually don't drink to excess while carrying but on the occasion that i find myself having a few too many i empty my pistol, clear the chamber and hand the magazine to a friend...kind of like giving the keys to a DD, but this way we both can keep drinking because alone we really can't do any SERIOUS damage. Of course i could alway pistol whip someone if i needed to.