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Thread: WI Shall-issue passes!

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    WI Shall-issue passes!

    WI this evening has passed a shall-issue carry bill. It will go into effect either 10/1 or 11/1. This law should allow Michigan residents to carry in WI (with our MI permits) once the law goes into effect. I know I look forward to FINALLY being able to carry in WI. Stop by the WI forum and give them some congratulations...
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Sweet. Do you have the wording of the law?

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Sweet. Do you have the wording of the law?
    Yes. https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201.../ssa2_sb93.pdf
    Rand Paul 2016

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    awesome. that was a long time coming.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    Guess that just leaves Illinois as the only state in the nation where a citizen has no right to self defense. No open carry, no concealed carry, no recognition of other state carry permits, nothing.

    Wonder if the day of Emancipation will ever come for the Land of Lincoln?

    Way to go Wisconsin!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Illinois the land of obamy,
    we've got them surrounded, now it is a matter of time before the land of Lincoln becomes truely FREE !

    Thank you goes out to all of the people that stood up and fought to regain there rights back !!!!

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    IL is worse than Kalifornia -- and this is the land we picked our President from. We better pick more wisely next time...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Essentially, if it is signed by Governor Walker, and every indication is that it will be, Michiganders would be able to CC starting in October or November. So, don't think that next week you can cc there with a Michigan CPL.

    Sadly, though, OCers are basically "forced" to get a permit. It would have been better if the "constitutional carry" proponents could have mustered enough support.(Yes, this is much like Michigan in that OCers must have a "permit" to OC in many areas... making OC a sort of watered down "right" (sic).)

    The points where this law is substantially different than the firearm law in Michigan are few, but important.... first, signs prohibiting firearms apparently have the force of law.
    Another issue is that carrying on school grounds would be a FELONY... not a "civil infraction" as it is here in Michigan.
    Also, any temporary event, where an admission charge is required, would be a "No firearm" zone.
    There may be more, but these are the few that I caught as I quickly read through it.
    Also, police stations and other governmental buildings are "off-limits".

    I would strongly suggest that any Michigan CPL holder who desires to carry in Wisconsin thoroughly read the law but, then again, they should do so if they choose to carry anywhere.
    Officially, CC is allowed at more places than here in Michigan... but the possibility of signage does change that.

    Caution... Rant coming...Yes, it is a major improvement; not as good as it could have been though. Instead of being in the forefront, Wisconsin has become one of many states that allows CC with a permit. This is not a criticism of Wisconsin nor it's citizens and I certainly applaud their gain in the area of self-defense... but I was hoping that a state often considered demographically and culturally/socially very close to most of Michigan would have taken the lead and showed OUR legislators that they have nothing to fear by allowing citizens to cc without a permit. However, this is MUCH better than what currently exists.

    Back to Michigan, does anyone else find it strange that Wisconsin and other states can have the discussion about expanding the "right" (sic) to carry so early in the year yet there has been NO movement on the bills here in Michigan that would eliminate the "no cc zones"?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    IL is worse than Kalifornia -- and this is the land we picked our President from. We better pick more wisely next time...
    But lately California is trying really hard to take that position from Illinois...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    Guess that just leaves Illinois as the only state in the nation where a citizen has no right to self defense. No open carry, no concealed carry, no recognition of other state carry permits, nothing.

    Wonder if the day of Emancipation will ever come for the Land of Lincoln?

    Way to go Wisconsin!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

    Not really "No open carry, no concealed carry"... but very close.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post

    Sadly, though, OCers are basically "forced" to get a permit. It would have been better if the "constitutional carry" proponents could have mustered enough support.(Yes, this is much like Michigan in that OCers must have a "permit" to OC in many areas... making OC a sort of watered down "right" (sic).)
    One advantage the law does give them is the ability to OC (sounds like CC too) in a vehicle without any kind of permit. That was the biggest reason I got my CPL was so I didn't have to unload every time I got in a vehicle. During berry picking season it's really a pain to carry w/o a permit. The odds of me running into a DNR officer were essentially zilch, but if I would have carried in the car w/o a CPL, I guarantee you I would have ran into one.
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post

    Back to Michigan, does anyone else find it strange that Wisconsin and other states can have the discussion about expanding the "right" (sic) to carry so early in the year yet there has been NO movement on the bills here in Michigan that would eliminate the "no cc zones"?
    I brought the fact that other states were moving forward while Michigan was using the economy excuse instead of getting things done in my last meeting with Mrs. Kowall, and didnt get much of an answer. IMO the legislature is going to do exactly nothing with gun rights.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I brought the fact that other states were moving forward while Michigan was using the economy excuse instead of getting things done in my last meeting with Mrs. Kowall, and didnt get much of an answer. IMO the legislature is going to do exactly nothing with gun rights.
    Look at everything that WI is dealing with right now, they managed to get what they did passed. Just sayin...
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    And from what I can tell Michigans permit will be honored as well as any other state that has training requirements. I have to go through Wisconsin in August and was hoping to be able to carry there but I doubted it would take effect by then and from the sound of it I'm right. From the sound of it I could open carry but I prob won't make any more than 1 or 2 stops there.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post

    Sadly, though, OCers are basically "forced" to get a permit. It would have been better if the "constitutional carry" proponents could have mustered enough support.(Yes, this is much like Michigan in that OCers must have a "permit" to OC in many areas... making OC a sort of watered down "right" (sic).)

    Just to clarify, OCers only need a permit if they are interested in reciprocity or are living in urban areas and are surrounded by school zones. The permit system allows travel through school zones. We can still OC without permission.

    And Constitutional Carry had overwhelming support. In the last poll I believe before the Senate vote it was just shy of 90% for Constitutional Carry (out of 40,000 polled). We had a Constitutional Carry Bill authored. Surprisingly Constitutional Carry was cooking along and looked like it was going to be the law of the land. Until... At the last minute our Governor stepped in and publicly declared he wanted a bill with permits and training. And that was the end of that. During the voting yesterday Constitutional Carry was continually brought up by both sides. Both sides know it is coming and acknowledged that. We were betrayed by our Governor IMHO.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 06-22-2011 at 03:11 PM.
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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Just to clarify, OCers only need a permit if they are interested in reciprocity or are living in urban areas and are surrounded by school zones. The permit system allows travel through school zones. We can still OC without permission.

    And Constitutional Carry had overwhelming support. In the last poll I believe before the Senate vote it was just shy of 90% for Constitutional Carry (out of 40,000 polled). We had a Constitutional Carry Bill authored. Surprisingly Constitutional Carry was cooking along and looked like it was going to be the law of the land. Until... At the last minute our Governor stepped in and publicly declared he wanted a bill with permits and training. And that was the end of that. During the voting yesterday Constitutional Carry was continually brought up by both sides. Both sides know it is coming and acknowledged that. We were betrayed by our Governor IMHO.
    Very interesting, thank you for the info! You guys gotta get Constitutional Carry passed ASAP! I hate to sound selfish, but the sooner you guys get it passed the sooner we can say "HEY, look our neighbors did it, NOTHING happened, so its time we do it too"!

    But we need to hurry up and keep pushing the elimination of our PFZ/CEZ's!
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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    The WI Law

    does not, unlike that of some, ahem, other states require that the out of state license be from the bearer's home state. Now can anybody name one of those states?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Essentially, if it is signed by Governor Walker, and every indication is that it will be, Michiganders would be able to CC starting in October or November. So, don't think that next week you can cc there with a Michigan CPL.

    Sadly, though, OCers are basically "forced" to get a permit. It would have been better if the "constitutional carry" proponents could have mustered enough support.(Yes, this is much like Michigan in that OCers must have a "permit" to OC in many areas... making OC a sort of watered down "right" (sic).)
    OC'ers are "forced" to get a license only in order to carry in school zones. Unlike some other, cough, cough, neighboring states - WI does not require a permit for OC. Now can anybody name one of those states?

    The points where this law is substantially different than the firearm law in Michigan are few, but important.... first, signs prohibiting firearms apparently have the force of law.
    What makes you think such signs are of no import in Michigan?

    Another issue is that carrying on school grounds would be a FELONY... not a "civil infraction" as it is here in Michigan.
    Well, the first two times anyway. The third gives you four years in the big house (not the one in Ann Arbor).

    Also, any temporary event, where an admission charge is required, would be a "No firearm" zone.
    It's "Special Event" - which is defined in the statute and then only if posted.

    There may be more, but these are the few that I caught as I quickly read through it.
    Also, police stations and other governmental buildings are "off-limits".
    Except for a short list of no-carry places, government buildings must be posted. And even then
    there are exceptions. The University of Wisconsin campus is open to carry, except in posted buildings. Try that at UM and see how far you get.

    I would strongly suggest that any Michigan CPL holder who desires to carry in Wisconsin thoroughly read the law but, then again, they should do so if they choose to carry anywhere. Officially, CC is allowed at more places than here in Michigan... but the possibility of signage does change that.

    Caution... Rant coming...Yes, it is a major improvement; not as good as it could have been though. Instead of being in the forefront, Wisconsin has become one of many states that allows CC with a permit. This is not a criticism of Wisconsin nor it's citizens and I certainly applaud their gain in the area of self-defense... but I was hoping that a state often considered demographically and culturally/socially very close to most of Michigan would have taken the lead and showed OUR legislators that they have nothing to fear by allowing citizens to cc without a permit. However, this is MUCH better than what currently exists.
    Given that Wisconsin will now have a better system than Michigan - you might want to drop the stones or move out of the glass house. I do agree that people should read up on the law. There's a lot of bad info floating around.

    Back to Michigan, does anyone else find it strange that Wisconsin and other states can have the discussion about expanding the "right" (sic) to carry so early in the year yet there has been NO movement on the bills here in Michigan that would eliminate the "no cc zones"?
    Nah, it's not strange. Michigan has a lot of quirks in its law....and legislature, for that matter.
    Last edited by apjonas; 06-22-2011 at 03:44 PM.

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    DR. Todd. What stones he has.
    JK.springerdave.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    does not, unlike that of some, ahem, other states require that the out of state license be from the bearer's home state. Now can anybody name one of those states?



    OC'ers are "forced" to get a license only in order to carry in school zones. Unlike some other, cough, cough, neighboring states - WI does not require a permit for OC. Now can anybody name one of those states?



    What makes you think such signs are of no import in Michigan?



    Well, the first two times anyway. The third gives you four years in the big house (not the one in Ann Arbor).



    It's "Special Event" - which is defined in the statute and then only if posted.



    Except for a short list of no-carry places, government buildings must be posted. And even then
    there are exceptions. The University of Wisconsin campus is open to carry, except in posted buildings. Try that at UM and see how far you get.



    Given that Wisconsin will now have a better system than Michigan - you might want to drop the stones or move out of the glass house. I do agree that people should read up on the law. There's a lot of bad info floating around.



    Nah, it's not strange. Michigan has a lot of quirks in its law....and legislature, for that matter.
    Well, in all honesty, EVERY STATE, has its drawbacks, period. But lets be honest, if you count OC WITH a CPL, MI has it MUCH better than WI's or pretty much any other states laws. Don't get me wrong, the 2A is a right, and all this firearm control is BS, and are just privileges. But Michigan has VERY few PFZ's if you OC w/CPL, signs do not carry the weight of the law (for the most part, their are few exceptions, like CC in an entertainment facility). You can carry in ALL Village, Township, City, County, and State buildings (including Police Stations), unless its in a court house, this by the way includes the State Capital Building, both OC and CC. As for "Special Events", if MI had that BS law, they would get away with banning at places like the Downtown Hoedown, and Arts Beats & Eats. You need NO permit to OC, and can do so at 18.

    The main things that DO need to be changed in MI are:
    Registration of Pistols
    PFZ for CC (w/o CPL)
    GFZ for OC (w/o CPL)
    We need to pass Constitutional Carry
    We need to be able to carry in a vehicle w/o permit
    Get rid of the Universities "Constitutions"

    That is about all I can think of off the top of my head, which may be worse than some states, but if you think about it we can carry in MUCH more places than most states. If you don't believe me look up other states the strange places you can't carry is nuts!

    So before you start talking about throwing stones in glass houses, maybe you should put the blow torch and step out of the igloo before you drown.

    MI has its faults, they are huge, but every state has their faults and they are also huge. Am I happy for WI, I am ecstatic! But seriously, don't attack someone when you aren't well informed.
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 06-23-2011 at 12:00 AM.
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    We need to expand preemption to all .gov, and put in penalties vor violating it. Otherwise, you pretty much got it covered.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    You need NO permit to OC, and can do so at 18.
    Yes we do, but at least it's free.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xor...ame=mcl-28-422

    Bronson
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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Okay, okay, sorry, I included that under pistol registration. But good call. No need for a permit to LGOC.

    Nice catch Bronson, as always. You are the eyes that see through the bushes.
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 06-23-2011 at 09:21 AM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    You are they eyes that see through the bushes.
    Hmmm, not quite sure how to take that

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Let's Compare More

    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    Well, in all honesty, EVERY STATE, has its drawbacks, period.
    Quite true.

    But lets be honest, if you count OC WITH a CPL, MI has it MUCH better than WI's or pretty much any other states laws.
    That's a matter of opinion and personal situations and therefore cannot be right or wrong. I will agree that MI is in the top 50%.

    Don't get me wrong, the 2A is a right, and all this firearm control is BS, and are just privileges. But Michigan has VERY few PFZ's if you OC w/CPL,
    Again, it's relative.

    signs do not carry the weight of the law (for the most part, their are few exceptions, like CC in an entertainment facility).
    Hmmm, so if Joe's Pizza in Kalamazoo (fictitious) posts signs saying no entry with a firearm and you ignore the sign and enter with a firearm, you cannot be charged with trespass? If true, so much for private property rights.

    You can carry in ALL Village, Township, City, County, and State buildings (including Police Stations), unless its in a court house, this by the way includes the State Capital Building, both OC and CC..
    If there is no option to post government buildings, that aspect of MI law is indeed less restrictive.

    As for "Special Events", if MI had that BS law, they would get away with banning at places like the Downtown Hoedown, and Arts Beats & Eats. You need NO permit to OC, and can do so at 18.
    The number of "special events" is limited. It's pretty difficult to OC without a pistol and you do need a permit (of some type) to purchase/possess. You do not need any type of permit to OC in Wisconsin and you can do so at 18. This does not include GFSZ and other special circumstances.

    The main things that DO need to be changed in MI are:
    Registration of Pistols
    PFZ for CC (w/o CPL)
    GFZ for OC (w/o CPL)
    We need to pass Constitutional Carry
    We need to be able to carry in a vehicle w/o permit
    Get rid of the Universities "Constitutions" .
    It is not the universities' constitutions but the state constitution that would need to be changed.

    That is about all I can think of off the top of my head, which may be worse than some states, but if you think about it we can carry in MUCH more places than most states. If you don't believe me look up other states the strange places you can't carry is nuts!

    So before you start talking about throwing stones in glass houses, maybe you should put the blow torch and step out of the igloo before you drown.
    I make mistakes all the time and to be fair the name of WI was sullied first, I just responded.

    MI has its faults, they are huge, but every state has their faults and they are also huge. Am I happy for WI, I am ecstatic! But seriously, don't attack someone when you aren't well informed.
    I'm not sure what I am not "well informed" about. If I made a misstatement of fact, please point it out. I did not attempt to cover every conceivable issue but was responding to those raised in the quoted post.

    Add-On - Found this. Why wouldn't it apply to a OC or CC into a private business?

    750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; penalty.

    Sec. 552.

    Any person who shall wilfully enter, upon the lands or premises of another without lawful authority, after having been forbidden so to do by the owner or occupant, agent or servant of the owner or occupant, (this could be by signage) or any person being upon the land or premises of another, upon being notified to depart therefrom by the owner or occupant, the agent or servant of either, who without lawful authority neglects or refuses to depart therefrom, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 30 days or by a fine of not more than $50.00, or both, in the discretion of the court.
    Last edited by apjonas; 06-23-2011 at 12:54 PM. Reason: more info

  25. #25
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    It is not a matter of Personal Opinion, Personal Situations, or Relativity when you are dealing with matters of LAW. It is quite an easy comparison just referencing handgunlaw.us and the information on OpenCarry.org. I recently went on a trip to 13 States and had to understand the laws of each State for Carry (I have a MI CPL). I am glad I do not live in some of those other states!

    Here is a sample from WI and MI since that is the topic at hand (State Resident carry only):

    WI:

    http://handgunlaw.us/states/wisconsin.pdf

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ou-should-know

    MI:

    http://handgunlaw.us/states/michigan.pdf

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-Guide-Project

    Just the mere fact that WI Residents have the 1000' GFSZ to deal with tells me everything I need to know (MI CPL and MI LTP meets the exclusionary requirements of Title 18 U.S.C 922(q)). When you include Public Buildings as being GFZ, which MI does not have, that completes the picture.

    As for Signage having the Force of Law in terms of Trespass, there is controversy about this and to date no clear answer has emerged that I am aware of (as in Case Law).

    Quote Originally Posted by MCL 750.552
    750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; violation; penalty.

    Sec. 552.

    (1) A person shall not do any of the following:

    (a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden so to do by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

    (b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

    (c) Enter or remain without lawful authority on fenced or posted farm property of another person without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent. A request to leave the premises is not a necessary element for a violation of this subdivision. This subdivision does not apply to a person who is in the process of attempting, by the most direct route, to contact the owner or his or her lessee or agent to request consent.

    (2) A person who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 30 days or by a fine of not more than $250.00, or both.
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-552

    1(b) above does not state Signage as being proper Notification, whereas other States have clearly spelled this out.

    I believe that Judge Napolitano speaks pretty clearly to Firearm Carry in Public Accommodations of Private Property (starting at 0:56 in the following video).


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