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Thread: Submitting to officer's request to see cc permit

  1. #1
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    Submitting to officer's request to see cc permit

    I have a question for those of you who have read the bill thoroughly and understand it better than I. Obviously, police harrassment (most of the time illegally) has occured numerous times while openly carrrying a firearm in WI. Such as police investigating, detaining, questioning, demanding identification, etc, from an individual with no probable cause that he/she has, is, or will be committing a crime.

    Will police have free reign to demand to see your concealed carry permit without any type of probable cause? I realize if the gun is concealed, how will they know etc.... but I could definitely see more and more of this happening and problems arising. Anything from simple conversations with police, or a traffic accident, moving violation.... i wonder if police will be fishing for more reasons to investigate an individual more thoroughly.

    I guess my main question is, does having a cc permit require me to show it to law enforcement upon request?

    I have found the following paragraph from an amendment for SB93.

    Display of License Document
    Under the substitute amendment, unless a licensee or out-of-state licensee is carrying a concealed weapon in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies, a licensee must have with him or her his or her license document and photographic identification card and an out-of-state licensee must have with him or her his or her out-of-state license and photographic identification card at all times during which he or she is carrying a concealed weapon. A licensee or out-of-state licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon must display the license and identification to a law enforcement officer upon the request of the law enforcement officer while the law enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority.
    A person who violates either of the above requirements may be required to forfeit not more than $25 except that the a person is exempt from this penalty if he or she presents his or her license document and photographic identification to the law enforcement agency within 48 hours.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...amendmemo/sb93

    Carry on,

    Brandon

  2. #2
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    First thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by MackdaddyMP21 View Post
    I have a question for those of you who have read the bill thoroughly and understand it better than I. Obviously, police harrassment (most of the time illegally) has occured numerous times while openly carrrying a firearm in WI. Such as police investigating, detaining, questioning, demanding identification, etc, from an individual with no probable cause that he/she has, is, or will be committing a crime.

    Will police have free reign to demand to see your concealed carry permit without any type of probable cause? I realize if the gun is concealed, how will they know etc.... but I could definitely see more and more of this happening and problems arising. Anything from simple conversations with police, or a traffic accident, moving violation.... i wonder if police will be fishing for more reasons to investigate an individual more thoroughly.

    I guess my main question is, does having a cc permit require me to show it to law enforcement upon request?

    I have found the following paragraph from an amendment for SB93.

    Display of License Document
    Under the substitute amendment, unless a licensee or out-of-state licensee is carrying a concealed weapon in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies, a licensee must have with him or her his or her license document and photographic identification card and an out-of-state licensee must have with him or her his or her out-of-state license and photographic identification card at all times during which he or she is carrying a concealed weapon. A licensee or out-of-state licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon must display the license and identification to a law enforcement officer upon the request of the law enforcement officer while the law enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority.
    A person who violates either of the above requirements may be required to forfeit not more than $25 except that the a person is exempt from this penalty if he or she presents his or her license document and photographic identification to the law enforcement agency within 48 hours.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...amendmemo/sb93

    Carry on,

    Brandon
    Why would you be talking to a LEO absent a detention involving RS?

  3. #3
    McX
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    i would be interested in how to handle a permit request, when OCing on a permit.

  4. #4
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    My 2 cents

    Since WI is not a stop and ID state, the officer would need reasonable articulate suspicion (RAS) in order to ask for a permit and photo ID, unless you are driving, then he can ask you for a drivers license anytime. Can he stop and ask you if you are printing while walking? Good question!
    I suspect this aspect may need to be settled via the courts or AG's opinion in that is printing sufficient reason to ask for ID, or does there need to be RAS? In Texas, a trooper pulled over someone because they had a NRA sticker on their truck. The courts sided with the citizen, saying just because he had a sticker, it wasn't enough to warrant the stop.
    If you are open carrying, and in a school zone, then he probably can ask for permit and ID, since he can see your gun, and knows you are in a GFSZ, so probably has RAS to check that you are legal.
    If you are concealed, and NOT printing or otherwise indicating you are carrying while in a GFSZ, and the police know you may be carrying due to past interactions or whatever, they may NOT stop and check, cause they have not RAS. Knowing you might be carrying isn't good enough.

    Just MHO, of course.
    Last edited by rcav8r; 06-22-2011 at 10:56 AM.

  5. #5
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    I found in the bill going to the governors desk the OP's quote. IMO, that means that if the officer requests to see the document, you must comply or face penalties. This is probably going to be a charge of obstructing an investigation. It doesnt say as far as I have found when or under what circumstances that an officer can or cannot make that request. This could get a little ugly.
    Carry: XD .40 4"

  6. #6
    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    I figured the "need to show your permit" was the main reason Flynn and other LE wanted the database. Because if they see you have a gun due to whatever reason, then if they can't get your name and ID, they will just ask for your CC permit. I don't really see how that's legal, but you know how this stuff goes.

    If that does start happening, expect lawsuits.

    At least you can tell them to piss off for a couple days and only pay a $25 fine for doing so. Hmm, not really sure how that works since they'd need your ID to know who to give the fine to.
    Last edited by DangerClose; 06-22-2011 at 11:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcav8r View Post
    Since WI is not a stop and ID state, the officer would need reasonable articulate suspicion (RAS) in order to ask for a permit and photo ID, unless you are driving, then he can ask you for a drivers license anytime. Can he stop and ask you if you are printing while walking? Good question!
    I suspect this aspect may need to be settled via the courts or AG's opinion in that is printing sufficient reason to ask for ID, or does there need to be RAS? In Texas, a trooper pulled over someone because they had a NRA sticker on their truck. The courts sided with the citizen, saying just because he had a sticker, it wasn't enough to warrant the stop.
    If you are open carrying, and in a school zone, then he probably can ask for permit and ID, since he can see your gun, and knows you are in a GFSZ, so probably has RAS to check that you are legal.
    If you are concealed, and NOT printing or otherwise indicating you are carrying while in a GFSZ, and the police know you may be carrying due to past interactions or whatever, they may NOT stop and check, cause they have not RAS. Knowing you might be carrying isn't good enough.

    Just MHO, of course.


    Thanks for your input. This could either be a complete non issue or a rather dicey one. I have a feeling it's going to vary depending what community you are in and who's got that shiny gold chief of police or sheriff's badge. Only time will tell!

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    From my understanding, you only need to show your permit if you are conceal carrying.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  9. #9
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    As I will continue to open carry, hopefully the only time I will need to show my permit is if I get stopped in a GFSZ (which is why I am even getting the permit)... or maybe if a shirt or jacket happens to inadvertantly cover my sidearm for a few seconds.. and in the winter, fo concealed under a winter coat (in my holster on my hip)...

    I am wondering if an LEO notices OC, if that would be justification (in his mind) to ask for a C.C. permit... I think NOT..... and would respectfully refuse as I would be O.C. with no permit required.. not C.C.'ing.

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  10. #10
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    The way I read this, if you are stopped for SOME OTHER REASON, and are CC, they can ask to see your permit. It does not say they can just stop you and ask to see your permit. If the weapon is properly concealed, why would they even think to ask?

    This sounds similar to what happened here in WA back when they first put in the seat belt law. You couldn't be stopped just because the officer did not see a seat belt (back then a lot of vehicles just had a lap belt), but you could get a ticket for not wearing one.

  11. #11
    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    This sounds similar to what happened here in WA back when they first put in the seat belt law. You couldn't be stopped just because the officer did not see a seat belt (back then a lot of vehicles just had a lap belt), but you could get a ticket for not wearing one.
    That used to be the case here too, but WI changed that. Now you can be pulled over for a seat belt violation ($10 last time I got one) and then that opens the door for them to request a search. A lot of people don't know they can tell the officer that they do not consent to a search, so I am guessing they go on a lot of fishing trips in uninformed citizens autos.

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