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Thread: Jacksonville case lost.

  1. #1
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    Jacksonville case lost.

    http://alabamaopencarry.com/forum/in...topic=1397.390

    "Short version for details as I will let someone else do all the intimate details: The judge basically ruled on a strict interpretation of -52, after reviewing all the case law, that it is illegal PERIOD to carry off of your own property. Since SBE admitted he carried into the bank, which was not his property, the judge found him to be guilty of the CRIME OF CARRYING. He TOTALLY overlooked 13A-11-55 in making this decision. "

    "Well, since the Judge specifically ordered us to turn off all recording devices (because he has a thing about youtube, apparently), this is the best I can do from me and my wife's memory. You would think he would rather be quoted verbatim, but he's just going to have to live with what we say he said. Some of this has already been stated, just trying to consolidate.

    After reading the arguments and briefs of both sides, including one put together by some organization, and doing some "extensive" and "very interesting" research regarding the case, he came to the conclusion that the satute "apparently" makes it illegal to take a pistol onto the premises of another. Although he found the statute to be questionable, confusing, and vague (Yes, a judge actually used the magic word 'vague' regarding 13A-11-52), and even went so far as to say he thought it should be challenged, he said his hands were tied. He had to rule based on the statute.

    He outlined the procedure for challenging the statute, and make it sound like he supported Jason, but then dropped the guilty verdict, that by then we all knew was coming, with a fine of $50. (How he came to that, we don't know.) He then outlined the procedure for appeal, and what would happen if Jason chose not to appeal or to pay the fine (jail, duh).

    Then it got good. (Bad?)

    He said he wished Jason had chosen another municipality to be his test case (WTF?). He pointed out that the appeal would waste city resources (which, presumably, would be better spent on people like Security Guard Clayton). He alluded that Jason was welcome to press the appeal if he felt he was in an adequate financial situation (another WTF!).

    For the record, Jason posted his appeal bond before we were finished picking up our collective jaws outside the courtroom. Oh, and the judge is right about one thing. This is going to wind up costing the city of Jacksonville. "


    Consider Jacksonville, Alabama hostile to open-carrying and/or lawfully carrying firearms in any fashion.
    Last edited by Kirbinator; 06-22-2011 at 01:18 PM.
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  2. #2
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    "questionable, confusing, and vague"

    how the fark were his hands tied then? is there a higher court precedent he can't override?

  3. #3
    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKSuddeth View Post
    "questionable, confusing, and vague"

    how the fark were his hands tied then? is there a higher court precedent he can't override?
    Actually the opposite. He ignored decades of legal precedent to come to his ruling.

    His hands were tied, because he apparently believes he has to rule based on the literal wording of the statute even in the face of common sense and his own reservations. He acted like a tool of the city who didn't want to jeopardize his part-time, municipal judge gig.

    If that sounds harsh, take note I am speaking of his actions. I have no idea what was going on in his head.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    The guilty verdict and the $50 is so that you have standing to challenge the application of the statute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    The guilty verdict and the $50 is so that you have standing to challenge the application of the statute.
    That's the way I'm keep reading it. There's no other way to interpret his remarks, IMO.

    Is there a PP support account set up yet for the appeal?

    Thanks and good luck.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    The guilty verdict and the $50 is so that you have standing to challenge the application of the statute.
    I think you're right. It certainly sounds like he knows the statute smells like a codfish in the Alabama sun for three days. The fine sounds like it is the minimum he could have levied, as well.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  7. #7
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    /strike/ Violating 13A-11-52 is an offense, which is punishable. /strike/

    13A-11-52 doesn't specify any penalty or other qualifiers which would define it as a anything remotely close to a punishable offense. One cannot be booked under violating -55 either, because -55 simply defines what the requirement is for indictment.

    In a nutshell, there are three families: felonies, misdemeanors, and violations. Each of those is an "offense". Offenses are separated out by the jail term applied. A violation is not more than 30 days.

    Confusingly, a "violation", is not a crime, because a crime is defined as a misdemeanor or a felony.

    Moreso confusing, the Westlaw Title 13A indicates that there are seven something categories for sentencing, implying that Classification and Designation of offenses is an addition or multiplication function.

    http://alisondb.legislature.state.al...75/13A-1-2.htm

    Section 13A-1-2
    Definitions.

    Unless different meanings are expressly specified in subsequent provisions of this title, the following terms shall have the following meanings:

    (2) BURDEN OF INJECTING THE ISSUE. The term means that the defendant must offer some competent evidence relating to all matters subject to the burden, except that the defendant may rely upon evidence presented by the prosecution in meeting the burden.

    (4) CRIME. A misdemeanor or a felony.

    (5) DANGEROUS INSTRUMENT. Any instrument, article, or substance which, under the circumstances in which it is used, attempted to be used, or threatened to be used, is highly capable of causing death or serious physical injury. The term includes a "vehicle," as that term is defined in subdivision (15).

    (7) DEADLY WEAPON. A firearm or anything manifestly designed, made, or adapted for the purposes of inflicting death or serious physical injury. The term includes, but is not limited to, a pistol, rifle, or shotgun; or a switch-blade knife, gravity knife, stiletto, sword, or dagger; or any billy, black-jack, bludgeon, or metal knuckles.

    (8 ) FELONY. An offense for which a sentence to a term of imprisonment in excess of one year is authorized by this title.

    (9) MISDEMEANOR. An offense for which a sentence to a term of imprisonment not in excess of one year may be imposed.

    (10) OFFENSE. Conduct for which a sentence to a term of imprisonment, or the death penalty, or to a fine is provided by any law of this state or by any law, local law, or ordinance of a political subdivision of this state.

    (11) PERSON. A human being, and where appropriate, a public or private corporation, an unincorporated association, a partnership, a government, or a governmental instrumentality.

    (13) POSSESS. To have physical possession or otherwise to exercise dominion or control over tangible property.

    (16) VIOLATION. An offense for which a sentence to a term of imprisonment not in excess of 30 days may be imposed.
    (Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, 130; Acts 1978, No. 770, p. 1110; Act 2001-971, 3rd Sp. Sess., p. 873, 2.)
    http://alisondb.legislature.state.al...75/13A-1-3.htm

    Section 13A-1-3
    General purposes of title.

    The general purposes of the provisions of this title are:

    (1) To proscribe conduct that unjustifiably and inexcusably causes or threatens substantial harm to individual and/or public interests;

    (2) To give fair warning of the nature of the conduct proscribed and of the punishment authorized upon conviction;

    (3) To define the act or omission and the accompanying mental state that constitute each offense;

    (4) To differentiate on reasonable grounds between serious and minor offenses and to prescribe proportionate penalties for each;

    (5) To insure the public safety by preventing the commission of offenses through the deterrent influence of the sentences authorized, the rehabilitation of those convicted and their confinement when required in the interests of public protection; and

    (6) To prevent arbitrary or oppressive treatment of persons accused or convicted of offenses.
    (Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, 105.)
    http://alisondb.legislature.state.al...75/13A-1-4.htm
    Section 13A-1-4
    When act or omission constitutes crime.

    No act or omission is a crime unless made so by this title or by other applicable statute or lawful ordinance.
    (Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, 110.)
    Act could mean legislative act.

    http://alisondb.legislature.state.al...75/13A-5-1.htm

    Section 13A-5-1
    Applicability of provisions.

    (a) Every person convicted of any offense defined in this title, or defined outside this title, shall be sentenced by the court in accordance with this article, unless otherwise specifically provided by law.

    (b) Penal laws enacted after January 1, 1980 shall be classified for punishment purposes in accordance with this article.
    (Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, 1201.)
    http://alisondb.legislature.state.al...75/13A-5-2.htm

    Section 13A-5-2
    Authorized dispositions.

    (a) Every person convicted of a felony shall be sentenced by the court to imprisonment for a term authorized by Sections 13A-5-6, 13A-5-9, and 13A-5-10.

    (b) In addition to imprisonment, every person convicted of a felony may be sentenced by the court to pay a fine authorized by Section 13A-5-11.

    (c) Every person convicted of a misdemeanor or violation shall be sentenced by the court to:

    (1) Imprisonment for a term authorized by Section 13A-5-7; or

    (2) Pay a fine authorized by Section 13A-5-12; or

    (3) Both such imprisonment and fine.


    (d) Every person convicted of a felony, misdemeanor, or violation, except for the commission of a criminal sex offense involving a child as defined in Section 15-20-21(5), may be placed on probation as authorized by law.

    (e) This article does not deprive a court of authority conferred by law to forfeit property, dissolve a corporation, suspend or cancel a license or permit, remove a person from office, cite for contempt, or impose any other lawful civil penalty. Such a judgment, order, or decree may be included as part of the sentence.

    (f) Every person convicted of murder shall be sentenced by the court to imprisonment for a term, or to death or to life imprisonment without parole as authorized by subsection (c) of Section 13A-6-2.
    (Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, 1205; Act 2005-301, 1st Sp. Sess., 1.)
    http://alisondb.legislature.state.al...75/13A-5-4.htm

    Section 13A-5-4
    Designation of offenses.

    (a) The particular classification of each felony defined in this title, except murder under Section 13A-6-2, is expressly designated in the chapter or article defining it. Any offense defined outside this title which is declared by law to be a felony without specification of its classification or punishment is punishable as a Class C felony.

    (b) The particular classification of each misdemeanor defined in this title is expressly designated in the chapter or article defining it. Any offense defined outside this title which is declared by law to be a misdemeanor without specification as to classification or punishment is punishable as a Class C misdemeanor.

    (c) Every violation defined in this title is expressly designated as such. Any offense defined outside this title without specification as to punishment or as to felony or misdemeanor is a violation.

    (Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, 1215.)
    http://alisondb.legislature.state.al...75/13A-5-7.htm

    Section 13A-5-7
    Sentences of imprisonment for misdemeanors and violations.

    (a) Sentences for misdemeanors shall be a definite term of imprisonment in the county jail or to hard labor for the county, within the following limitations:

    (1) For a Class A misdemeanor, not more than one year.

    (2) For a Class B misdemeanor, not more than six months.

    (3) For a Class C misdemeanor, not more than three months.

    (b) Sentences for violations shall be for a definite term of imprisonment in the county jail, not to exceed 30 days.
    http://alisondb.legislature.state.al...5/13A-5-12.htm
    Section 13A-5-12
    Fines for misdemeanors and violations.

    (a) A sentence to pay a fine for a misdemeanor shall be for a definite amount, fixed by the court, within the following limitations:

    (1) For a Class A misdemeanor, not more than $6,000;

    (2) For a Class B misdemeanor, not more than $3,000;

    (3) For a Class C misdemeanor, not more than $500; or

    (4) Any amount not exceeding double the pecuniary gain to the defendant or loss to the victim caused by the commission of the offense.

    (b) A sentence to pay a fine for a violation shall be for a definite amount, fixed by the court, not to exceed $200, or any amount not exceeding double the pecuniary gain to the defendant or loss to the victim caused by the commission of the offense.

    (c) As used in this section, "gain" means the amount of money or the value of property derived from the commission of the crime, less the amount of money or the value of property returned to the victim of the crime or seized or surrendered to lawful authority prior to the time sentence is imposed. "Value" shall be determined by the standards established in subdivision (14) of Section 13A-8-1.

    (d) The court may conduct a hearing upon the issue of defendant's gain or the victim's loss from the crime according to procedures established by rule of court.
    (Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, 1245; Acts 1979, No. 79-471, p. 862, 1; Act 2006-197, p. 284, 1.)
    Last edited by Kirbinator; 07-05-2011 at 06:36 PM. Reason: Correction of incorrect conclusion.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

  8. #8
    Regular Member FF/EMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTG-05 View Post
    That's the way I'm keep reading it. There's no other way to interpret his remarks, IMO.

    Is there a PP support account set up yet for the appeal?

    Thanks and good luck.
    http://alabamaopencarry.com/forum/index.php?topic=1793

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