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Thread: SB134 Enhance straw purchase and receive stolen property crimes.

  1. #1
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    SB134 Enhance straw purchase and receive stolen property crimes.

    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/data/SB-134.pdf

    Since it's sponsored by gun haters, I would assume this is a bad bill.

    I emailed Kedzie asking him to vote against.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Russf's Avatar
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    Before u know it the dems will want spitting on a sidewalk a felony.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russf View Post
    Before u know it the dems will want spitting on a sidewalk a felony.
    I think that's the point. They know that getting rid of gun rights is difficult but so far no hue and cry has arisen from stopping felons from getting guns. If they keep expanding the felon law, only felons will have guns.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Emailed my reps as well.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Actually, I am having a hard time finding anything wrong here....

    Seems to only address enhanceing the laws (felonies) for intentional law breakers such as straw purchasers and recievers of known stolen property. I will not be e-mailing my Reps. as I basically agree with what they are trying to do.

    If anyone see's something I am missing please feel free to inform me as to exactly why this is a bad bill and I will reconsider contacting my Reps.

    Outdoorsman1

    Side Note: I literally witnessed an OBVIOUS straw purchase a few years ago while I was picking up my Taurus Judge. It was in a popular Kenosha Marine / Sporting Goods Store. After the staw purchaser and friends left, I asked the slaesman WTF.... Why did you just allow a straw purchase and he gave me some MAJOR BS that he did not see it as a straw purchase... I do not do ANY business there anymore.....
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 06-23-2011 at 10:53 AM.
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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Since all of the bad things these bad people might do with firearms are already illegal (and they do them anyway), I don't see why this is necessary other than to serve as a moral booster for law enforcement and gun haters.

    By default I typically do not support making every damn thing a felony.

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    I support making straw purchases a felony.

    Buying a gun for someone prohibited from having it is like handing a drunk your car keys. You're actively putting other people at risk.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teej View Post
    I support making straw purchases a felony.

    Buying a gun for someone prohibited from having it is like handing a drunk your car keys. You're actively putting other people at risk.
    Straw purchasing is already a federal felony.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Straw purchasing is already a federal felony.
    That's just it, the bill seems redundant to me. I think what they wanted was the ability to prosecute under state law instead of federal law. Which I don't really understand either.

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    Good point. I actually knew that but had forgotten it in the context of the discussion. Fell victim to the wording games.

    Seems like it's being put in as a feel good / piling on charge. I believe you could be charged with both (federal & state violations) and might even have both stick.

    Double jeopardy wouldn't apply. SCOTUS ruled such in Lanza.

    On that basis, I amend my earlier post - I agree with making straw purchases a state felony in addition to federal. Throw the f'in book at 'em.
    Last edited by Teej; 06-23-2011 at 12:39 PM.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teej View Post
    I support making straw purchases a felony.

    Buying a gun for someone prohibited from having it is like handing a drunk your car keys. You're actively putting other people at risk.
    Perhaps when they remove the 21 years old for a handgun crap I could support this. I don't see anything wrong with buying a friend a handgun who is under 21.

    You're not putting anyone at risk by buying someone a handgun who is 20 years 364 days old.
    Last edited by Schlitz; 06-23-2011 at 12:55 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    Side Note: I literally witnessed an OBVIOUS straw purchase a few years ago while I was picking up my Taurus Judge. It was in a popular Kenosha Marine / Sporting Goods Store. After the staw purchaser and friends left, I asked the slaesman WTF.... Why did you just allow a straw purchase and he gave me some MAJOR BS that he did not see it as a straw purchase... I do not do ANY business there anymore.....
    Did it seem the straw purchase was for a guy with a ski mask on, pants down to his knees, with a stained wife beater? Or was it for a 18-20 year old is ban from buying a brand new handgun because we have laws that don't make sense in this country?

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Straw purchasing is already a federal felony.
    Which means nothing. It means nothing to a state prosecutor or district attorney. Only a federal prosecutor can prosecute a federal felony.

    I see nothing wrong with SB131 or SB134.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    Perhaps when they remove the 21 years old for a handgun crap I could support this. I don't see anything wrong with buying a friend a handgun who is under 21.
    I can buy a handgun and give it to my son on his 18th birthday and that is not illegal.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Which means nothing. It means nothing to a state prosecutor or district attorney. Only a federal prosecutor can prosecute a federal felony.

    I see nothing wrong with SB131 or SB134.
    A person can still be arrested and then given to the feds, no?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    A person can still be arrested and then given to the feds, no?
    Only if the Federal Agents and Prosecutor wants the case.

    ETA: From what I have heard, that is never, unless the FBI, BATFE or DEA gets involved.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 06-23-2011 at 01:27 PM.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Only if the Federal Agents and Prosecutor wants the case.
    So if they aren't even going to enforce the law, what's the point of having it?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  18. #18
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    So if they aren't even going to enforce the law, what's the point of having it?
    +1!

  19. #19
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    So if they aren't even going to enforce the law, what's the point of having it?
    So that if the Federal Agents and Prosecutor wants the case, they can.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    So that if the Federal Agents and Prosecutor wants the case, they can.
    You can't just pick and choose which laws you want to enforce. Then everything becomes inconsistent and is open to interpretation. No wonder why out country is so screwed up. The criminal always gets off easy while the law abiding gets screwed because of some technicality.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    You can't just pick and choose which laws you want to enforce. Then everything becomes inconsistent and is open to interpretation. No wonder why out country is so screwed up. The criminal always gets off easy while the law abiding gets screwed because of some technicality.
    Yes, they have that discretion. They do not have unlimiteed resources and have to make decisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    Perhaps when they remove the 21 years old for a handgun crap I could support this. I don't see anything wrong with buying a friend a handgun who is under 21.

    You're not putting anyone at risk by buying someone a handgun who is 20 years 364 days old.
    Your gripe is NOT with SB134, but with existing federal law.

    Federal law does not distinguish between your situation above and buying for a known felon.

    SB134 specifically applies to buying a gun with the intent to transfer it to someone you know or should reasoably know is prohibited from possessing it. Your friend/son/whatever who's 20.99yo is not prohibited from possessing a firearm, just buying one.
    Last edited by Teej; 06-23-2011 at 02:52 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    You can't just pick and choose which laws you want to enforce. Then everything becomes inconsistent and is open to interpretation. No wonder why out country is so screwed up. The criminal always gets off easy while the law abiding gets screwed because of some technicality.
    Is that exactly what we heralded Jackson County District Attorney, Gerald Fox, for doing?

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Is that exactly what we heralded Jackson County District Attorney, Gerald Fox, for doing?
    Perhaps I should clarify, choosing to not charge one person with a crime and not another makes this very inconsistent, which leads to confusion and more criminals getting off from their crimes.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    Actually, I am having a hard time finding anything wrong here....
    ...
    If anyone see's something I am missing please feel free to inform me as to exactly why this is a bad bill and I will reconsider contacting my Reps.

    Outdoorsman1

    .....
    I can't open or read the links with my phone browser so I will just state what my concerns are.

    First I would need to see exactly how they are defining a "Straw Purchase". Is the definition limited to only buying for someone who is not elligible(sp?) to buy on their own? Or does it also extend to buying for people who can otherwise legally purchase a firearm on their own?

    For example, can you legally buy a firearm for a non-relative such as a boy/girl friend? How about a boss or co-worker? How about for a nephew or neice or uncle or aunt or parent or grand parent who doesn't live with you? Buying for a son or daughter is usually acceptably, but what about for a step-child? I know that sometimes a step-parent will go through the legal process to "adopt" a spouse's child so I assume there is some legal differentiation between step-kids who are also adopted and those who are not legally adopted apart from the parent's marriage.

    My wife has kids and grandkids, I am unclear if it would be legal for me to buy any of them (apart from my wife) a firearm.

    As to the receiving stolen property laws, I would need to see if the law requires a reasonable knowledge that the item in question is or might be stolen. How many firearms at gun shows and on sites like gunbroker are stolen where the seller may or may not know of the theft.

    20+ years ago I bought a shotgun from a pawn shop, I had no way of know if that shotgun had ever been stolen. If someone 10 years ago had seen me with that shotgun at some skeet range and recognized it as having been stolen from them 35 years prior, would I be at risk of prosecution under the new laws? It may be a ridiculous (sp?) example, but it is a legitimate question.

    When dealing with extremists, never underestimate how far they are willing to push an issue.

    Hopefully I haven't strayed too far from the discussion.

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