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Thread: SB93 FAQ from the LRB

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    SB93 FAQ from the LRB


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    Regular Member Deadscott's Avatar
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    Excellent find, this answers most of the questions I had. Thank you.
    Discussing Concealed Carry in Wisconsin at www.armedbadger.com

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    Thanks, printed out copies for friends and family.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Pam for Governor!!

    Here's the memo about preemption she has on her page.
    Maybe EauClaire & Madistan & Killwaukee should get copies of that...

    ETA: Oh, I like the main memo, the one w/ the FAQ about cc in WI.
    On pg. 2 they mention that we have to show permit & ID to an officer only if that officer is
    "acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority".

    But wait - see pg. 9, talking about whether certain old statutes were repealed.
    This says no, exceptions were created for permit holders.
    That's not what I understood. I thought everyone was going to be equal EXCEPT for the "school zone", state parks, & publicly-owned buildings.

    Pg. 10, about vehicle carry, seems to say that it will NOT be considered concealed in a car.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 06-24-2011 at 10:04 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    That bit about GFSZ doesn't look so good, unless I read it incorrectly.....
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    I don't see where permit holders are exempt from the 1000' rule, either.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckdog View Post
    I don't see where permit holders are exempt from the 1000' rule, either.
    So true. I can assure you that a permit holder can carry in the 1000' school zone. Definitely a BIG oversight in this memo.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    makes you wonder if there are more errors/oversights in this...

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    Regular Member Carcharodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    That bit about GFSZ doesn't look so good, unless I read it incorrectly.....
    It sounds to me that if you are in the 1000 ft zone, carrying openly or concealed, with a permit, but not in the school or on the school grounds, it is a fine but not a felony. However, no permit is still a felony within 1000 ft.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcharodon View Post
    It sounds to me that if you are in the 1000 ft zone, carrying openly or concealed, with a permit, but not in the school or on the school grounds, it is a fine but not a felony. However, no permit is still a felony within 1000 ft.
    Actually, no.

    So... no permit within 1000' of a school but not on school property, a class b forfeiture (no crime, just a fine). Permit in same area, no problem.

    Permit or not, on school grounds is a state Felony.

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    The information on page 9 that refers to the Gun Free School zone is incorrect. The bill reduces the penalty for knowingly open carry of a firearm in the 1000 foot boundary from a felony to a misdemeanor but the open carry of a firearm is still prohibited. Concealed carry is exempted from the prohibition if the person has a valid concealed carry permit. The permit satisfies the requirements of paragraph 948.605(2)(b)2 as listed below. Senator Galloway and the LRB must be informed of this misunderstanding by the LRB.


    (2) Possession of firearm in school zone.

    948.605(2)(a)
    (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone is guilty of a Class I felony.


    948.605(2)(b)
    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm:


    948.605(2)(b)1.
    1. On private property not part of school grounds;


    948.605(2)(b)2.
    2. If the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by a political subdivision of the state or bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms in which political subdivision the school zone is located, and the law of the political subdivision requires that, before an individual may obtain such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the political subdivision must verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

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    That's what I thought you had said. I read it, too. The memo does explain most things pretty nice, though.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    The information on page 9 that refers to the Gun Free School zone is incorrect. The bill reduces the penalty for knowingly open carry of a firearm in the 1000 foot boundary from a felony to a misdemeanor but the open carry of a firearm is still prohibited. Concealed carry is exempted from the prohibition if the person has a valid concealed carry permit. The permit satisfies the requirements of paragraph 948.605(2)(b)2 as listed below. Senator Galloway and the LRB must be informed of this misunderstanding by the LRB.


    (2) Possession of firearm in school zone.

    948.605(2)(a)
    (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone is guilty of a Class I felony.


    948.605(2)(b)
    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm:


    948.605(2)(b)1.
    1. On private property not part of school grounds;


    948.605(2)(b)2.
    2. If the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by a political subdivision of the state or bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms in which political subdivision the school zone is located, and the law of the political subdivision requires that, before an individual may obtain such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the political subdivision must verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    Captain, the law changes the 1000' carry open or concealed from a felony to a class B forfeiture, not a misdemeanor. Can you point out where it says the permit requires concealing within the 1000'? I agree, the school grounds is still a felony, permit or not.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...olled/sb93.pdf

    948.605 (2) (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses
    a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or
    has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on
    the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any
    individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place
    that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to
    believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is
    subject to a Class B forfeiture.
    1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a
    school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an
    out−of−state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
    Doesn't mentioned concealed.

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    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the way open carry goes.

    Regarding school "zones":
    If you open carry, you don't have to get a permit. But, you need that permit if you want to be in a school zone (defined at 1000ft of school property).

    Basically open carry is the same as it was before. You have to have the permit to get into like bars/restaurants or state parks and other places that the SB93 now allows. I think only thing that might have changed for open carry with no permit, besides the school zone penalty, as the car possession provision?

    There should be a FAQ on open carry without a permit

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenophon View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the way open carry goes.

    Regarding school "zones":
    If you open carry, you don't have to get a permit. But, you need that permit if you want to be in a school zone (defined at 1000ft of school property).

    Basically open carry is the same as it was before. You have to have the permit to get into like bars/restaurants or state parks and other places that the SB93 now allows. I think only thing that might have changed for open carry with no permit, besides the school zone penalty, as the car possession provision?

    There should be a FAQ on open carry without a permit
    Yes. I have not found anywhere in the law that says ANYTHING about mandating concealed. If I have a permit, I can carry open or concealed the same places. The permit gives me more places.

    The new law without a permit adds car carry.

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    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    The new law without a permit adds car carry.
    I can just see it now though. Open carrying in car, and you are not a permit holder. Officer sees gun during some traffic stop or something, and asks for permit. Fun begins during this initial learning/training period for officers? And just imagine that scenario in Madison.

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    Paul:

    I agree the LRB needs to clarify the law better. You are correct that the state penalty has been reduced from a felony to a forfieture. You are also correct that the law and/or statute doesn't make any reference to manner of carry. However, the statute does say carry in the 1000 foot zone is exempted if the person has a license issued by the state or a political subdivison thereof. The license that will be issued by the state of Wisconsin under SB93 authorizes a specific manner of carry, concealed carry. By default the only manner of carry lawful in public areas of the 1000 foot zone is concealed carry because that is the only manner of carry the license issued under SB93 authorizes. Open carry is not entirely prohibited because a license to carry in the "zone" could still be obtained from the school board or political subdivision on an individual basis.

    Technically I suppose the LRB statement is correct. The carry of firearms in the 1000 foot zone is still prohibited. Only the penalty for doing so has been reduced. However, the prohibition of carrying is subject to exemptions. One of them being a valid license from the state. The permit issued under SB93 satisfies the licensing provision but restricts the manner of carry to concealed carry.

    My opinion
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 06-23-2011 at 10:11 PM.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    The license that will be issued by the state of Wisconsin under SB93 authorizes a specific manner of carry, concealed carry. By default the only manner of carry lawful in public areas of the 1000 foot zone is concealed carry because that is the only manner of carry the license issued under SB93 authorizes.
    I am willing to believe you, however, I see nowhere in the definition of what the permit allows you to do the word 'concealed'. In addition, there is no definition of 'concealed'. I contend that the permit, while it is called 'License to carry a concealed weapon.' it never mentions concealing or manner of carrying.

    175.60 is the part that defines the permit and the process. Starts on page 7 of https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...olled/sb93.pdf


    The only place I see the word 'concealed' is when the section describes the out of state license. 175.60(f)
    (f) “Out−of−state license” means a valid permit,
    license, approval, or other authorization issued by
    another state if all of the following apply:
    1. The permit, license, approval, or other authorization
    is for the carrying of a concealed weapon
    .
    2. The state is listed in the rule promulgated by the
    department under s. 165.25 (12) and, if that state does not
    require a background search for the permit, license,
    approval, or authorization, the permit, license, approval,
    or authorization designates that the holder chose to submit
    to a background search.

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    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    Thanks paul, your the man
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Paul:

    the statute does say carry in the 1000 foot zone is exempted if the person has a license issued by the state or a political subdivison thereof.

    My opinion
    The technical issue here is that the statute has an exemption based on the possession of a license issued to the carrier, the manner of carry does not render the exemption inoperable. This issue has come up in other states and unless the statute itself mandates the carrier conceal, concealment is allowed but not required.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    when does it take effect?

    This has been answered so many times, & links to the bill (READ IT YOURSELF) have been posted so many times, I'm starting to get a bit curt with people.
    [That link is the one Paul found for the ENTIRE bill as it will be published, integrating SB93 w/ SSA2. Isn't he awesome?]

    I just posted this on FB, answering when various parts of the bill take effect:

    Taking effect the day after publication:
    66.0409 (6) Carry is not disorderly conduct; preemption

    165.25 (12) DOJ makes a list of all the states w/ permits that require a background check
    (DUH... do you know of any state that issues a permit w/o a background check?
    So the list = every state except IL & VT. There. That's taken care of.)


    175.49 (4) DOJ to design special cards for LEO

    175.60 (2m) DOJ to design permit; contents of permit

    175.60 (5) DOJ to design application & renewal forms; shall be completed NLT the 1st day of the 2nd month after the effective date of this paragraph
    [which is the day after publication]

    947.01 (2) carry by itself is not DC

    section 100 (1) DOJ shall do what it says in 165.25 (12)

    section 100 (2) until the 1st day of the 5th month after publication, DOJ has 45 days to process applications

    Taking effect on 01JUL:
    20.455 (2) (gs) fees for background checks for licenses go toward funding the program

    section 100 (h) talks about funding / appropriations

    Everything else takes effect on the 1st day of the 4th month after publication.

    ETA: I put this into a blog post so it's easy to find later
    Last edited by MKEgal; 06-24-2011 at 09:30 AM.

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    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I am willing to believe you, however, I see nowhere in the definition of what the permit allows you to do the word 'concealed'. In addition, there is no definition of 'concealed'. I contend that the permit, while it is called 'License to carry a concealed weapon.' it never mentions concealing or manner of carrying.

    175.60 is the part that defines the permit and the process. Starts on page 7 of https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...olled/sb93.pdf


    The only place I see the word 'concealed' is when the section describes the out of state license. 175.60(f)
    SECTION 38. 175.60 of the statutes is created to read:
    175.60 License to carry a concealed weapon.

    Then it defines what a Licensee is in 175.60 (d):

    (d) “Licensee” means an individual holding a valid
    license to carry a concealed weapon issued under this section.

    -----

    ETA: Ack, ok I just read further and saw this:

    175.60 (2) ISSUANCE AND SCOPE OF LICENSE
    ...
    175.60 (2) (c): Unless expressly provided in this section, this section
    does not limit an individual’s right to carry a firearm
    that is not concealed.
    Last edited by xenophon; 06-23-2011 at 11:39 PM.

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    I'm a Texas resident but have step children and in-law in Wi. I'm confused about some of the bill will Wi recognize some permits from other states or will I need to apply for a Wi permit and does the bill allow for open (I know Wi is an oc state via it's constitution) and concealed carry or is it only for cc? Thanks in advance for your help

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonSoul View Post
    I'm a Texas resident but have step children and in-law in Wi. I'm confused about some of the bill will Wi recognize some permits from other states or will I need to apply for a Wi permit and does the bill allow for open (I know Wi is an oc state via it's constitution) and concealed carry or is it only for cc? Thanks in advance for your help
    WI will NOT issue WI permits to out of state residents.

    That being said, the new law says that the WI DOJ will create a list of states whose permits will recognize. The criteria to be on that list is that the state has to mandate background checks or that they can be optional but indicated that the permit holder opted in. Does TX permit require a background check? If so, WI will most likely recognize it.

  25. #25
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenophon View Post
    ETA: Ack, ok I just read further and saw this:

    175.60 (2) ISSUANCE AND SCOPE OF LICENSE
    ...
    175.60 (2) (c): Unless expressly provided in this section, this section
    does not limit an individual’s right to carry a firearm
    that is not concealed.
    I thought I had seen that but every time I look I over look it.

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