NRA Basic Pistol *_instructor_* course in Milwaukee in JUL

So what really constitutes training? A 5 minute class? Classroom only? Classroom with range time? Range time only?

Interceptor_Knight said:

That is the argument which is used to try and ban Open Carry and Constitutional carry in general. It is a page right out of the WAVE play book nearly verbatim..... If you are carrying for self defense, you are of no danger except to a potential attacker unless you are totally inept. You would not draw to stop a theft or other crime that is absent of an imminent threat to your life. You are not allowed to continue firing if the attacker turns and runs away...etc

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DISCLAIMER: If you are not open to ANY form of firearm training, other than DRN or Basic pistol, this fact below will probably PISS YOU OFF! I am NOT referring to ANYONE here, I am NOT presuming ANYONE here is not knowledgeable and I am NOT pointing ANY fingers at ANYONE! FTI, when I use "I & you" I am using in general.
I would attempt to qualify what Calico Jack is trying to illustrate here, IK, you just about hit the nail on the head, but missed the follow through, to further your opinion here.
Carrying any weapon is dangerous! Yeah, ppl think "I know how to use it" Yeah sure you do, I put it in my holster, place the mag in the magazine well, safety on...Vwolah! Sure, now you're ready to go and walk the dog, sometime along the walk, you are approached by 2 younger males asking you for a lite for their cig, you oblige, while reaching into your pocket (now BOTH hands are "busy") They start to attack you, your dog runs away, you're on the ground, presumably fighting for your life, one of them is trying to steal your firearm while the other is bashing your face in, WTF are you really capable of now?
Yeah, I got it, there are multiple ways you think you'd react, but with out the proper TRAINING, you and your gun are useless, now you have introduced a weapon of opportunity into the fight one that YOU brought and will likely be used in the furthering of a commission of a SERIOUS crime.
I realize that my example is extreme, it does happen.
I have been through training examples just like that one, I though before I did that same one, "I'll do this..." NOPE! WRONG!
Now, let's say you do get your firearm out, you start firing rounds BANG BANG CLICK...WTF!?!?!? In the midst of all that is happening, you experience a Type 2 Malfunction...AW Crap now what do I do? Might as well throw it at them and prey!
If you do not want to get this type of knowledge keep your firearm in the holster and run, cuz your going to hurt and/or jeopardize innocent people, remember EVERY round fired has a lawyer attached to it!
"WE" as firearm owners and carriers shoulder a heavy responsibility, with great power comes great responsibility!
Utilize what tools and people that have the proper professional training available to your advantage instead of slamming them, if YOU had the training and experience that they and I have, you'd understand, so please keep an open mind, it could very well save your life!

I encourage anyone with the skills and $$ to obtain their NRA Instructor - Pistol rating to do so. Most states that require training require the NRA Instructor - Pistol as a prerequisite to obtaining that state's CFP Instructor Permit (Example: Utah, Nevada, etc). It is not clear what WI will require but it is logical to assume that an NRA Instructor - Pistol will meet or exceed WI CFP Instructor requirements. (It will be interesting to see. We will probably have to wait for the DOJ to promulgate the appropriate regulations based on the legislation.) It will also be interesting to see what program, if any, WI Carry designs.

I concur with those who posted that the NRA Pistol Class is just a basic class on safety, firearm familiarity, and marksmanship. It IS NOT about defensive fighting with a handgun or handgun retention in close proximity fighting. Those skills need to be acquired from competent instructors who teach them. I personally have taken such training and recommend it to all my friends who carry for personal defense.

Interceptor_Knight said:

That is the argument which is used to try and ban Open Carry and Constitutional carry in general. It is a page right out of the WAVE play book nearly verbatim..... If you are carrying for self defense, you are of no danger except to a potential attacker unless you are totally inept. You would not draw to stop a theft or other crime that is absent of an imminent threat to your life. You are not allowed to continue firing if the attacker turns and runs away...etc

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Come on now, I always thought you were more intelligent than this. If you really believe this then please explain to me how missed shots due to the attack, and over penetration have no effect on innocent people. It is not about what you draw for, it is about the use of that firearm. It is pretty insulting that you would associate me with wave being that I am one of the people that is offering this kind of training for FREE to make sure that the things that you left out of your statement don't end up killing innocent people. I have been teaching people to defend and survive for more than 10 years, and the type of instruction that places like front sight and thunder ranch are just now starting out with, I have been doing for at least that long. While people throw away my comments as in line with anti gunners, you fail to realize that we can loose CC a hell of a lot faster than we got it. All it takes is a group of people who think that the minimum training is good enough to make sure they don't kill some kid in a walmart parking lot because they didn't know what to do.

jpm84092 said:

I encourage anyone with the skills and $$ to obtain their NRA Instructor - Pistol rating to do so. Most states that require training require the NRA Instructor - Pistol as a prerequisite to obtaining that state's CFP Instructor Permit (Example: Utah, Nevada, etc). It is not clear what WI will require but it is logical to assume that an NRA Instructor - Pistol will meet or exceed WI CFP Instructor requirements. (It will be interesting to see. We will probably have to wait for the DOJ to promulgate the appropriate regulations based on the legislation.) It will also be interesting to see what program, if any, WI Carry designs.

I concur with those who posted that the NRA Pistol Class is just a basic class on safety, firearm familiarity, and marksmanship. It IS NOT about defensive fighting with a handgun or handgun retention in close proximity fighting. Those skills need to be acquired from competent instructors who teach them. I personally have taken such training and recommend it to all my friends who carry for personal defense.

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Aren't you the same guy that was just talking about coming back to Wisconsin to teach people the basic pistol course so that they could get their permit? It is great to know that you are so concerned with what is happening in Wisconsin as long as you can make a few bucks off of it. The up side is that at least this time you admit that you needed courses that were beyond your knowledge.

As for the rest of it. It is simple. There is a lot of talk of what it will require to get a permit. And it seems that unless the governor changes something major, any training will get you that permit. What you are not taking into account is what happens if it is your wife or child or anyone else you love that gets taken out by a round from your gun because you thought that you learned enough in that basic pistol course. And if anyone wants to challenge my record, or ability, talk to someone who has taken one of my "Basic" courses that I taught for FREE, I guaranty they will tell you that the minimum will get someone innocent killed. A lack of appropriate training can cost you your life, even if you are an "Instructor".

The sad truth is that being that we are getting NEW concealed carry laws, we can loose them. No matter what amount of fighting we put up to keep them from going away. We are the ones that have to stand up and PROVE that we are responsible, because we all know the anti gunners will use any tragedy to their advantage. The idea that minimums are OK is a dangerous prospect. It is also not something that we can take lightly, no matter if it is video's, books, courses, or practice, it is our job to make sure that we are the best of the best.

So if you think the little bit that is being talked about in order to get a permit is enough, just remember, if a missed shot wizzes by a cop or a cops family, then they will treat you like the attacker even if you are defending yourself. And as far as me, I have the training, and I do the practice, and I am constantly researching what needs to be in order to save the lives of the people that I care about, whether that be from me teaching them, or me defending them with my firearm.

The law can not dish out a penalty that will ever match some of the consequences you create as a result of a bad shot.

Edit: Just so we are clear, this is the same thing I have been screaming since we started the fight for constitutional carry, and this is the reason I have always offered a FREE open carry course. I have put up at every turn. Including having to design a FREE concealed carry course as a result of the permit system.

You think I am wrong about any of it, I have two words for you. PROVE IT!

new thread, please?

I'm not saying the discussion about how much & what type of training people need isn't interesting,
or isn't needed,
or even that (much of) what's being said is off-point or irrelevant to that topic.

But would you all PLEASE start your own thread to fight in?
Most of this has nothing to do with the original intent of making people aware of upcoming training.

CalicoJack10 said:

Aren't you the same guy that was just talking about coming back to Wisconsin to teach people the basic pistol course so that they could get their permit? It is great to know that you are so concerned with what is happening in Wisconsin as long as you can make a few bucks off of it.

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Wow! jpm charged me $20 for my Utah training. He came here from UT to do it. I don't think we covered his costs if he hadn't come here for another reason.

Aren't you the one who was going to charge $150 for the 2 day class? Wouldn't that be the pot calling the kettle black? You explained insurance costs and other stuff, and I have no problem with that.

I noticed that there is also an NRA instructor class (for pistol) being offered in late August at Deerfield Pistol. Here's the flyer:

http://www.deerfieldpistol.com/images/NRA Deerfield.pdf

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Wow! jpm charged me $20 for my Utah training. He came here from UT to do it. I don't think we covered his costs if he hadn't come here for another reason.

Aren't you the one who was going to charge $150 for the 2 day class? Wouldn't that be the pot calling the kettle black? You explained insurance costs and other stuff, and I have no problem with that.

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Nice catch. But I know that it is cheaper to run classes without insurance. I am betting I could do it so cheap if I didn't give a crap about making sure my students were covered if (god forbid) something went wrong. Silly me.

CalicoJack10 said:

Nice catch. But I know that it is cheaper to run classes without insurance. I am betting I could do it so cheap if I didn't give a crap about making sure my students were covered if (god forbid) something went wrong. Silly me.

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As a former small businessman who had to close his business, I am NOT against people making money and I understand there are expenses. All I am trying to say is that you taking jpm to task for charging for a class to cover expenses is not good when you are doing the same thing.

As for insurance, how do you know jpm doesn't have insurance?

CalicoJack10 said:

I know that it is cheaper to run classes without insurance.

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1) there's a world of difference between the possible problems in a classroom & on a range
2) Jim might very well have had insurance anyway
3) nothing wrong w/ covering expenses; some instructors are taking advantage & gouging
4) new thread, please