What are the plans for future legislation?

KeepShootin · Jun 23, 2011

I will be moving to FL in about a month. I will be eligible to get my permit in less than a year and a half. I am currently in college and I would like to see some things changed. We obviously want open carry, but I would like to see some places removed from the "banned list", as well.

Okay, I have copied the list of places where we can't carry, and I have added a rating of how important they are to me (1-5, 5 being very important) (Please feel free to add your own list with ratings. I would like to see how important each one is to everyone)

THE LIST

any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station (1/5)

any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse (1/5)

any courtroom* (2/5)

any polling place (3/5)

any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district (2/5)

any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof (1/5)

any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms (5/5)

any school administration building (5/5)

any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption* (5/5)

any elementary or secondary school facility (5/5)

any area technical center (5/5)

any college or university facility* (5/5)

inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport*(2/5)
________________________________________________________________________

Will we be seeing any future bills removing the bans that I have highlighted in red? If there are no plans for some of them, who can I contact once I get down there, to help get a start on removing them from the list?

77zach · Jun 23, 2011

I don't know what the future holds. None of the prohibited places affect me. If we had OC, that "portion of the establishment" primarily devoted to serving alcoholic beverages would be annoying. Is it illegal to walk through the bar portion of a restaurant to the bathroom? I don't know, it's ambiguous. Do I worry about it with concealed carry? Certainly not. I'll even sit in the bar area. Stupid ass law. The ban at colleges is unspeakably evil as the environs are hotbeds of violent crime. It is not illegal to have the weapon in the vehicle, but the school can still take action against you academically. And many people don't take their personal autos to school because of the parking hassle. So everyone is disarmed to, from, and around school.

It would probably be best if Fl got OC before college carry. The reason being support in the legislature for OC was almost there, but allowing OC at schools was not popular among the neocons.

77zach · Jun 23, 2011

KeepShootin said:
any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption* (5/5)

________________________________________________________________________

It is not illegal to carry in an establishment that serves alcohol. It is illegal to sit at a bar.

"any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose"

The dpt of agriculture site isn't clear.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2010/790.06

Jojo712 · Jun 24, 2011

KeepShootin said:
...
THE LIST

any polling place (3/5)

any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district (2/5)

any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof (1/5)

any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms (5/5)

any school administration building (5/5)

any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption* (5/5)

any elementary or secondary school facility (5/5)

any area technical center (5/5)

any college or university facility* (5/5)

inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport*(2/5)
Will we be seeing any future bills removing the bans that I have highlighted in red? If there are no plans for some of them, who can I contact once I get down there, to help get a start on removing them from the list?

Strangely enough, your desires are very similar to mine. I teach at the local colleges and universities, and used to teach at a local middle school (15 years ago, but post-Columbine). Because of the gun bans on campuses, schools are very high-crime zones, regardless of the students' age. So 5/5 for me on your last two.

I practice law at the local criminal court in Miami (defense). It's the "finest" neighborhood in the entire world: scores of folks who just got out of the jail next-door beg you for money from the moment you exit your car to the moment you enter the court, and vice versa. Your chances of being murdered there also increase exponentially if you are even moderately successful, because not only are the aforementioned "finest" folks in town your natural enemies, but so are the LEOs who have suffered the courtroom version of drawing and quartering at your hands: "oh, it's that a$$hole who made us look like idiots on the stand, let's look the other way." 5/5

Like you, I agree with these:
"any polling place (3/5)

any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district (2/5)

any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof (1/5)"

They aren't as important to me and they're generally safe to begin with (although as politics gets dirtier, some protecton is warranted).

When it comes to liquor, 5/5; I wouldn't be against keeping yourself under a certain alcohol level at a bar (where tempers may flare), but certainly not at driving levels, if you're not driving.

It might not surprise you to learn that we haven't made much progress on these fronts, since they simply aren't prioritized. The only one that made it to committee this year and was prioritized until it was just dropped in one of the grandest displays of political money and influence Was campus carry, a priority for both of us (google campus carry, Florida, and see how it was killed). It was pure corruption, and they didn't even hide it.

Like everywhere else, the road to change is through contact with your representatives, and as FC has been advocating, personal contact rather than just form emails. They live in the district and only work at the capital for 1/4 of the year, so visiting them is feasable.

The best and most American way, of course, is to become very well-educated about whom your candidates are and making sure you vote on your issues. Furthermore, as advocated by the great Crashnjax (running for District 1), finding and supporting folks for districts in need of change is nothing short of brilliant in this day and age. The world is so small that getting in touch and finding out how you can help from your districts doable: everything from helping to spread the word in other forums to giving technical advice and even substantive advice to the candidate.

Of course you can always run for office yourself (after a six month residency, if I'm not mistaken), and thanks to John (Crashnjax) we're obtaining all the information and getting all the lingo down for these state seats.

Move down immediately and get your hands dirty: do as much as you can. We need people like you in Florida.

hammer6 · Jun 25, 2011

77zach said:
It is not illegal to carry in an establishment that serves alcohol. It is illegal to sit at a bar.

"any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose"

The dpt of agriculture site isn't clear.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2010/790.06

so- you think it's okay to go to a dance hall that has booths and tables, and pool tables, and also has a bar in it? like a club?

77zach · Jun 25, 2011

hammer6 said:
so- you think it's okay to go to a dance hall that has booths and tables, and pool tables, and also has a bar in it? like a club?

I don't know. This stupid law is almost as ambiguous as "briefly". I think the law is meat to ban sitting at a bar within any type of establishment. Pubs/bars/ pool halls that only or primarily serve alcohol would be also be out in my opinion.

ixtow · Jun 25, 2011

77zach said:
I don't know. This stupid law is almost as ambiguous as "briefly". I think the law is meat to ban sitting at a bar within any type of establishment. Pubs/bars/ pool halls that only or primarily serve alcohol would be also be out in my opinion.

At least with pool halls, I've made an interesting observation.

It is generally against the establishment's rules to set a cold beverage on a pool table. Condensation, spills, etc...

So, if you're not allowed to have a drink on the pool table, how can it be used primarily for serving alcohol?

It can't be against the rules for a drink to be there, and also used primarily for drinks. It becomes a mutually exclusive concept by the making of that rule.

It's worked for me for nigh on a decade... Cops who would very much like to arrest me for anything or nothing have not tried to use that excuse. YMMV, depending on how much YOUR cops think you know about the law and their perception of your willingness to counter them. Mine don't want to deal with me in any way that involves paperwork.

hammer6 · Jun 25, 2011

77zach said:
I don't know. This stupid law is almost as ambiguous as "briefly". I think the law is meat to ban sitting at a bar within any type of establishment. Pubs/bars/ pool halls that only or primarily serve alcohol would be also be out in my opinion.

i've been to a place that sells food mostly during the day, and alcohol mostly at night...what about that place?

randian · Jun 25, 2011

I'm not sure how you get what you want with the committee system.

To use an out of state example, the Oregon house passed (by a large margin) a bill to recognize all out of state permits (currently Oregon recognizes none). The senate committee that first heard it killed it. The senior committee members didn't allow a vote on the house bill, preventing the full senate from hearing it, then stuffed (replaced wholesale while keeping the bill number) the original for presentation to the senate. If the senate did vote, what it was voting on was unrelated to what the house passed. Pure parliamentary malfeasance. Basically, one guy has the power to quash any pro-gun bill the house passes.

77zach · Jun 25, 2011

randian said:
I'm not sure how you get what you want with the committee system.

To use an out of state example, the Oregon house passed (by a large margin) a bill to recognize all out of state permits (currently Oregon recognizes none). The senate committee that first heard it killed it. The senior committee members didn't allow a vote on the house bill, preventing the full senate from hearing it, then stuffed (replaced wholesale while keeping the bill number) the original for presentation to the senate. If the senate did vote, what it was voting on was unrelated to what the house passed. Pure parliamentary malfeasance. Basically, one guy has the power to quash any pro-gun bill the house passes.

It's why freedoms are so hard to get back. But it's also the reason states like Fl and Oregon have any freedom at all. The voters are dumb/scum/indifferent. So they put criminals and scum in charge. Without the committees, Fl would look like North Korea by 2020.

ADulay · Jun 26, 2011

randian said:
Pure parliamentary malfeasance. Basically, one guy has the power to quash any pro-gun bill the house passes.

That's pretty much the way I see it too!

All the committees in the world can "pass" the legislation on down the line but any ONE of the clowns decides he/she doesn't like it and it's all wasted.

No recourse, no discussion, just one person giving it the axe and you're out of the ball game!

As you stated, the original Bill number may remain, but it will be completely different from what was originally supposed to be legislated!

Watching our own Florida legislature earlier this year with SB234 was an exercise in futility as committee after committee was passed and then the SINGULAR representative changed it all, literally at the last minute.

It was like watching a bad circus at times. I can't imagine it's any better at the national level, either.

AD

Jojo712 · Jun 26, 2011

ixtow said:
At least with pool halls, I've made an interesting observation.

It is generally against the establishment's rules to set a cold beverage on a pool table. Condensation, spills, etc...

So, if you're not allowed to have a drink on the pool table, how can it be used primarily for serving alcohol?

It can't be against the rules for a drink to be there, and also used primarily for drinks. It becomes a mutually exclusive concept by the making of that rule.

It's worked for me for nigh on a decade... Cops who would very much like to arrest me for anything or nothing have not tried to use that excuse. YMMV, depending on how much YOUR cops think you know about the law and their perception of your willingness to counter them. Mine don't want to deal with me in any way that involves paperwork.

Wouldn't a pool hall fall under a "place of nuisance" within the statute, and therefore be automatically excluded as a place where we can pack?

Jojo712 · Jun 26, 2011

ADulay said:
That's pretty much the way I see it too!

All the committees in the world can "pass" the legislation on down the line but any ONE of the clowns decides he/she doesn't like it and it's all wasted.

No recourse, no discussion, just one person giving it the axe and you're out of the ball game!

As you stated, the original Bill number may remain, but it will be completely different from what was originally supposed to be legislated!

Watching our own Florida legislature earlier this year with SB234 was an exercise in futility as committee after committee was passed and then the SINGULAR representative changed it all, literally at the last minute.

It was like watching a bad circus at times. I can't imagine it's any better at the national level, either.

AD

It was a true American tragedy: especially watching how campus carry was dumped in committee because of a sob story (albeit sad, but unrelated) from a major contributor (read: big-moneyed constituent).

Rich7553 · Jun 26, 2011

Jojo712 said:
Wouldn't a pool hall fall under a "place of nuisance" within the statute, and therefore be automatically excluded as a place where we can pack?

823.05 Places and groups engaged in criminal gang-related activity declared a nuisance; may be abated and enjoined.—

(1) Whoever shall erect, establish, continue, or maintain, own or lease any building, booth, tent or place which tends to annoy the community or injure the health of the community, or become manifestly injurious to the morals or manners of the people as described in s. 823.01, or any house or place of prostitution, assignation, lewdness or place or building where games of chance are engaged in violation of law or any place where any law of the state is violated, shall be deemed guilty of maintaining a nuisance, and the building, erection, place, tent or booth and the furniture, fixtures, and contents are declared a nuisance. All such places or persons shall be abated or enjoined as provided in ss. 60.05 and 60.06.

Nope. The assumption is that unlawful activites take place in and are sanctioned by the management of a place of nuisance.

ixtow · Jun 27, 2011

Jojo712 said:
Wouldn't a pool hall fall under a "place of nuisance" within the statute, and therefore be automatically excluded as a place where we can pack?

As I've read it many times, "a place of nuisance" is a place you can't get a business license for. For example, brothels. You can't get a cat house license, it's a crime. A place of nuisance is a place used for engaging in generally criminal behavior. Not that I have a problem with brothels... ;-) I'm speaking entirely from a legal perspective.

hammer6 · Jun 27, 2011

so a country/hip hop dance hall that serves food during the day and food and drinks at night and has dancing lessons during the week would be okay?

holy run on sentence!

ixtow · Jun 27, 2011

hammer6 said:
so a country/hip hop dance hall that serves food during the day and food and drinks at night and has dancing lessons during the week would be okay?

holy run on sentence!

What portion of said establishment is primarily used for.... I see no temporal references in the law.

I'd have to stick with a strict interpretation that if a portion of said establishment has some other primary purpose, it cannot ALSO have a primary purpose of serving alcohol. "Primary" is an exclusive word. You can't have more than one "primary" thing. While this may be a stricter interpretation than necessary, I feel it is the most prudent.

A pool table is not used primarily for anything but playing pool. Furthermore, you are not allowed to have a drink on (or near) it, so that's two strikes against the area on and about a pool table being called 'primarily for serving alcohol.' You can't have two primary's, and a rule prohibiting the concept on top of it...

One might suppose that if it isn't being used primarily for serving alcohol AT THIS TIME, then it is in fact, not being used primarily for serving alcohol. Totality of Circumstances... But I don't think I'd bet my freedom on the notoriously predatory FL po pos seeing it that way... Or even my 'prudent' interpretation, for that matter.

I make my own choices on where I believe that line is drawn. There is no case law on this, so it is only educated speculation. I believe there is something about the divided bar/restaurant area of a place like Chili's, but it is not directly applicable.

Not that it matters to the law, but I don't drink anyway. Perpetrating such a prohibition against me is pointless in the spirit of the law.

KeepShootin · Jul 20, 2011

First off, let me apologize for taking so long to reply. I've been busy with school work and working on employment transfers.

77zach said:
I don't know what the future holds. None of the prohibited places affect me. If we had OC, that "portion of the establishment" primarily devoted to serving alcoholic beverages would be annoying. Is it illegal to walk through the bar portion of a restaurant to the bathroom? I don't know, it's ambiguous. Do I worry about it with concealed carry? Certainly not. I'll even sit in the bar area. Stupid ass law. The ban at colleges is unspeakably evil as the environs are hotbeds of violent crime. It is not illegal to have the weapon in the vehicle, but the school can still take action against you academically. And many people don't take their personal autos to school because of the parking hassle. So everyone is disarmed to, from, and around school.

It would probably be best if Fl got OC before college carry. The reason being support in the legislature for OC was almost there, but allowing OC at schools was not popular among the neocons.

I'm not a drinker, I just don't want where I can sit in places, like Chili's, to be restricted. I also don't want to have to worry about walking near the bar area if I need to use the bathroom or whatever else. It's just stupid sh*t that no one should have to be concerned about in the first place. Lol. As far as Campus carry goes, hopefully it gets passed soon (but OC first, would be better, as you stated). My college is in a good area of town, thankfully, but you just never know...

Jojo712 said:
Strangely enough, your desires are very similar to mine. I teach at the local colleges and universities, and used to teach at a local middle school (15 years ago, but post-Columbine). Because of the gun bans on campuses, schools are very high-crime zones, regardless of the students' age. So 5/5 for me on your last two.

I practice law at the local criminal court in Miami (defense). It's the "finest" neighborhood in the entire world: scores of folks who just got out of the jail next-door beg you for money from the moment you exit your car to the moment you enter the court, and vice versa. Your chances of being murdered there also increase exponentially if you are even moderately successful, because not only are the aforementioned "finest" folks in town your natural enemies, but so are the LEOs who have suffered the courtroom version of drawing and quartering at your hands: "oh, it's that a$$hole who made us look like idiots on the stand, let's look the other way." 5/5

Like you, I agree with these:
"any polling place (3/5)

any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district (2/5)

any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof (1/5)"

They aren't as important to me and they're generally safe to begin with (although as politics gets dirtier, some protecton is warranted).

When it comes to liquor, 5/5; I wouldn't be against keeping yourself under a certain alcohol level at a bar (where tempers may flare), but certainly not at driving levels, if you're not driving.

It might not surprise you to learn that we haven't made much progress on these fronts, since they simply aren't prioritized. The only one that made it to committee this year and was prioritized until it was just dropped in one of the grandest displays of political money and influence Was campus carry, a priority for both of us (google campus carry, Florida, and see how it was killed). It was pure corruption, and they didn't even hide it.

Like everywhere else, the road to change is through contact with your representatives, and as FC has been advocating, personal contact rather than just form emails. They live in the district and only work at the capital for 1/4 of the year, so visiting them is feasable.

The best and most American way, of course, is to become very well-educated about whom your candidates are and making sure you vote on your issues. Furthermore, as advocated by the great Crashnjax (running for District 1), finding and supporting folks for districts in need of change is nothing short of brilliant in this day and age. The world is so small that getting in touch and finding out how you can help from your districts doable: everything from helping to spread the word in other forums to giving technical advice and even substantive advice to the candidate.

Of course you can always run for office yourself (after a six month residency, if I'm not mistaken), and thanks to John (Crashnjax) we're obtaining all the information and getting all the lingo down for these state seats.

Move down immediately and get your hands dirty: do as much as you can. We need people like you in Florida.

I'm glad to hear that my concerns are similar to yours. Your career situation really sucks. It's really a shame that you are forced to be disarmed, when you have to deal with pissed off criminals and cops that will "look the other way", when you're just doing your job. I'd hate to be a lawyer in FL :/

I'm going to be living in Fort Myers and it seems like that's one of the biggest OC cities, as far as fishing events go. Is the current individual in office for the Fort Myers district, pro-OC? Is Fort Myers generally a republican ran area, or democrat ran area? Also, what district is Fort Myers a part of? I'll get my hands dirty as soon as I possibly can.

10x · Jul 20, 2011

"any polling place (3/5)

Did you forget about the polling place where 2 Black Panther thugs with bats intimidating voters!
Obama,s Justice department did nothing

Bad law, we should be allowed to carry everywhere.

KeepShootin · Jul 20, 2011

10x said:
"any polling place (3/5)

Did you forget about the polling place where 2 Black Panther thugs with bats intimidating voters!
Obama,s Justice department did nothing

Bad law, we should be allowed to carry everywhere.

I agree that it's a bad law and that we should be allowed to carry everywhere, but there are other areas that I would like to see unbanned more than that one.

What are the plans for future legislation?

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