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Thread: Stopped right off of cass st, East Side Green Bay

  1. #1
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    Stopped right off of cass st, East Side Green Bay

    4 squad cars, out walking with my 2 year old daughter on my shoulders, circled 2 blocks, lawe st by the park, I forget the name (playground, kiddie pool) and up around to cass and back (I live on Lawe) I saw 3 sets of people, some scary looking people by the park, I will not elaborate because thats another issue and my personal opinion I dont wish to go into. Then a family looking like something out of joe Dirt with a boxer that was barking and running in circles when we approached from the other side of the street walking away, so i thought ok, if this dog charges i'm going to just kick him away until i feel he's really trying to attack (daughter on shoulders and arm free to reach firearm) ****I have never had this thought before, and it was just a scenario in my head, not something i would plan on or jump to shooting a dog, i just feared if i fell my daughter could get mauled. and lastly i saw a guy mowing his lawn, police contact was about 45 seconds after guy mowing lawn so i'm led to believe it was one of the first 2 groups, but thats immaterial, the police said they'd inform them it's legal.

    The stop. 2 squad cars, a branch with hanging leaves knocks my daughters hat off i spin to pick it up and see them, I know exactly whats happening, this is my first stop btw. then 2 more almost immediatly. 3 cops approach one waits in car. "sir, sir come here" I turn where i'm at and say "i'm open carrying, it's perfectly legal and i'm legal to carry, i'm sure you're encountered this before" they say yes we know, someone called, etc, small talk small talk, I say "well, I know i'm free to go unless you're going to detain me, i'm not intimidated and i've committed and don't plan on committing any crimes, my house is right around this bend, however, i will be walking here always armed and i do not wish this to keep happening, my name is ______ here is my ID, run me, do your thing, and get used to this, i am not in a rush, i don't mind talking with you, i know it's your job, but you need to understand it's going to happen and now with CCW you will not even have a clue whos carrying, so i believe this is more clear, a visual deterrant and saves me from ever having to announce to a suprised criminal i'm carrying, the odds of me being harmed while open carrying are slim to none."

    we make small talk while they run my stuff, which i know people will give me crap for submitting my information, but i don't need to play mr secretive, it's my right, i've got nothing to hide and i want them to know me, and know i'm going to be carrying, because i could care less if i'm on 10000 lists of mr guy that carrys a gun, it's my right and i would go on tv and declare that i will always carry.

    anyway, they thank me, they did say most people get really nervous or hostile or try and walk or argue and i acknowledged i know this is the usual thing, but i don't want to be a dick for the sake of being a dick, i'm in the same line of work, but since i don't have a badge hanging around my neck i get stopped, whenever i have either my armed security badge, pi credentials or in florida my fugitive recovery agent gear, then not a single call except the occasional old lady calling the cops to find out why there's a group of cops (which we are not) on her street.

    anyway, cops were decent, one guy was great, wanted to talk guns and he was all for open carry and was generally a great guy, the woman was very cordial and i did the most small talk with the other guy whom i did stand my ground with and he visibily didn't agree with it much, but he knew there wasn't a thing he could do and i made that clear, i also asked that they think of implementing a program or placing information around letting people know it's legal to open carry, the female said she'd be stopping by the complaintants and letting them know i am legal to carry and was a "nice guy, peaceably and legally carrying his weapon" so i called it a success and now as i write this, i feel like going out for more walks is going to be a hassle, so now i'm debating continuing my walk, but on the other hand, have a strong urge to educate my new neighborhood on the legality of open carry.

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    Wow! Great story.

    Im glad it turned out fine.

    Im on the fence about giving ID freely, and I've never had an encounter with LEO's yet, but I reserve judgement on those who do choose to give their ID. Like you said, its your right to give it if you want, and since we are all here to exercise our rights, I dont feel anyone should judge you.

    That said, I was on the east side of GB open carrying today as well. I took my 4 year son and 5 year old nephew fishing by the Wildlife Sanctuary, and truly expected an encounter of some sort. Many folks were out today because of Kids Day in Green Bay, but not one person said anything.

    A family of what looked like very liberal people were fishing and came over, they knew I was carrying because we walked right by and I gave them a headnod and saw the eyes glance to the .45, but they came over a couple minutes later and I was expecting a talk, but he just asked if he could buy some weights. He had a $5 in his hand and I knew he meant sinkers lol. I replied you dont have to buy them, you can get a hundred for $3. I gave him 12 or so, and that was all. He said Thank you.


    But I digress... good story and you may have helped educate a few people. Now I want to go walk around my neighborhood too! I live by Mather Heights Park.

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    Yea The cops were like is that a 1911? how is it, what type etc. the one cop talked brands and ammo with me, i would do it again, it was almost enjoyable, out for a walk and get to talk to people who have the same interests. I'm mostly against the psychology of most cops, the badge and gun are what does it for them, yet they want to hassle me for open carrying, which is something maybe they feel should be "just for them" but these 3 cops seemed like normal people, so it worked out well, and i had a nice chat and my daughter got to see "peace officahs" which she loves because she thinks daddys one, even though i keep explaining i think it's easier to say than the other titles, and besides, to her, i look like a rose and smell like a rose.

    As for your walks, do it, if we can get enough people to do it regularly, not in groups or just 2 people max, then that'll get people used to it, i swear when we're at starbucks gatherings people must just think it's a bunch of undercovers having coffee, a cop convention of sorts. I've open carried all over, but only got stopped today because i'm wearing a tshirt, my favorite old non baggy gray jeans and i have tattoos covering one arm, so for sure they thought oh he can't be a cop, red alert, red alert. because usually i'm in polos and khakis, and while that passes and i dont get hassled, i dont want to pass for a cop, i want to pass for someone exercising their rights, so i'll have to make sure i dress waaaayyyy down more often.

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    one thing i left out was when they approached it was "hands up" thats the dumbest crap i think, first my hands were up already holding my daughters legs, but how can you shout commands at someone thats obeying the law, if they're not detaining me or arresting me, they can't give me commands. Thats the only real problem i had now that i think about it.
    Last edited by WisconsinPI; 06-25-2011 at 07:01 PM.
    When seconds count between life and death the police are only minutes away - Philip Van Cleave

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RgLEGibyXs The Right of the People to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7...eature=related

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    I'm not to big on the whole "show me your ID thing". You have to make the choice that is right for you I guess...

    That said, If a cop came at me with hands on his/her gun, I would do what ever I was told to at that time. The fight for your rights will be very hard if you are dead. Some cops won't play "games" at all. Good cop, bad cop, I can't tell. I would just be happy to live, and take them to court later if need be. Guess I have trust issues Eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    I'm not to big on the whole "show me your ID thing". You have to make the choice that is right for you I guess...

    That said, If a cop came at me with hands on his/her gun, I would do what ever I was told to at that time. The fight for your rights will be very hard if you are dead. Some cops won't play "games" at all. Good cop, bad cop, I can't tell. I would just be happy to live, and take them to court later if need be. Guess I have trust issues Eh?
    They didn't have hands on guns that i can remember, they knew what i was doing and they also knew their were 4 of them, i had my daughter on my shoulders and it takes us all about the same time to draw, and i have 0 reason to draw. I used to think that if a cop was doing something illegal that i would fight it, but not now, i know i'd rather obey and file a lawsuit than maybe get shot. The one thing i'm very very very glad they did not try to do was to disarm me, because thats illegal and my only strong point that i will not obey, they will have to detain me first to disarm me, and either way it'll be them illegally disarming me or illegally detaining me so i'll win the case, but I will not comply, I would with my daughter there and dont get me wrong i'm not saying i'd fight, i'm saying i'd let them know thats an illegal command and i will not surrender my firearm, i know in california they have to surrender for an inspection, besides not being able to have a clip in, bahahhaha, THATS a nightmare!
    When seconds count between life and death the police are only minutes away - Philip Van Cleave

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RgLEGibyXs The Right of the People to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7...eature=related

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    I can say with absolute certainty that the GBPD knows better, they tangled ******** w/me and got their PP's slapped by their Supervisor, not once, but twice!
    GBPD's officers have been well informed about OC there is NO EXCUSE for ANY I repeat ANY contact by them for an individual who is OC'n! PERIOD!
    Hands up? WTF? Really? Sounds like an unlawful detention to me. IDK?
    Sounds like the GBPD needs another refresher on OC, their memories must be short.
    This is just my rant.

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    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    It's amusing that people would call the cops on "someone with a gun" when that person is walking down the street with his two-year-old on his shoulders. I know every time I've seen a mugging or a gun fight, the bad guy has always had a two-year-old on his shoulders....

    It's yet another thing to carry, but pepper spray might be the way to go when walking in areas with dogs. Then again, if a dog is doing something threatening enough to justify peppering, I suppose making sure the dog stops is arguably the better course of action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qball54208 View Post
    I can say with absolute certainty that the GBPD knows better, they tangled ******** w/me and got their PP's slapped by their Supervisor, not once, but twice!
    GBPD's officers have been well informed about OC there is NO EXCUSE for ANY I repeat ANY contact by them for an individual who is OC'n! PERIOD!
    Hands up? WTF? Really? Sounds like an unlawful detention to me. IDK?
    Sounds like the GBPD needs another refresher on OC, their memories must be short.
    This is just my rant.
    The one cop wouldn't let it go, i said eventually you guys can ignore calls about man with gun in holster, or just driveby, it wastes my time and yours, you should be free to patrol for real crime. He's like no we'll always come to gun calls, I said sure, with the frequency u get them now, but if you got 5 calls per minute, you would not, he seemed to think they would.
    When seconds count between life and death the police are only minutes away - Philip Van Cleave

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RgLEGibyXs The Right of the People to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7...eature=related

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    3 cops approach one waits in car. "sir, sir come here"
    Sounds like a detention & command to me...
    And since they knew you weren't doing anything illegal, it was an illegal detention & command under color of law.

    But you're right, you can choose to talk with them & tell or show them anything.
    When you do, though, it makes things harder for the next person (like qball) to tell them "no" & make it stick without a lot of hassle.

    Maybe next time at least get them to admit up front that you're not being detained,
    you're not suspected of a crime,
    & you are free to go at any time,
    THEN be Mr. Nice Guy & hand over the ID.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WisconsinPI View Post
    ... which i know people will give me crap for submitting my information, but i don't need to play mr secretive, it's my right, i've got nothing to hide and i want them to know me....
    I think you are missing the point. This is not a personal attack.

    It is your duty as a FREE man to stand up to tyranny. Every day the tyrants take our freedom away... A little bit at a time.

    You chose to willingly give up your freedom. You actions negatively effect your community. You just gave the tyrants a green light to continue their illegal activity not only with you but your neighbors.

    So it begs the question why you carry a firearm if you are unwilling to protect yourself, your daughter or your community.

    Once again this is not a personal attack.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 06-26-2011 at 11:46 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Sounds like a detention & command to me...
    And since they knew you weren't doing anything illegal, it was an illegal detention & command under color of law.

    But you're right, you can choose to talk with them & tell or show them anything.
    When you do, though, it makes things harder for the next person (like qball) to tell them "no" & make it stick without a lot of hassle.

    Maybe next time at least get them to admit up front that you're not being detained,
    you're not suspected of a crime,
    & you are free to go at any time,
    THEN be Mr. Nice Guy & hand over the ID.
    Yep, I agree totally, I said that and they did acknowledge my words, but of course they were definatly going to hassle me, and my house was right there, my daughter was done walking, and i didn't wanna play the walk around game, or go home and have them sit outside my house, they are nosey bastards after all, so i just played the game smart, i didnt let the bully push me around, and i did the exact thing i needed to to get them off my back quickly, without the words and time wasting i got right to it, and then started the talk while they were running me.
    When seconds count between life and death the police are only minutes away - Philip Van Cleave

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RgLEGibyXs The Right of the People to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7...eature=related

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WisconsinPI View Post
    Yep, I agree totally, I said that and they did acknowledge my words, but of course they were definatly going to hassle me, and my house was right there, my daughter was done walking, and i didn't wanna play the walk around game, or go home and have them sit outside my house, they are nosey bastards after all, so i just played the game smart, i didnt let the bully push me around, and i did the exact thing i needed to to get them off my back quickly, without the words and time wasting i got right to it, and then started the talk while they were running me.
    Really? They were doing something potentially illegal, you let them get away with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    I think you are missing the point. This is not a personal attack.

    It is your duty as a FREE man to stand up to tyranny. Every day the tyrants take our freedom away... A little bit at a time.

    You chose to willingly give up your freedom. You actions negatively effect your community. You just gave the tyrants a green light to continue their illegal activity not only with you but your neighbors.

    So it begs the question why you carry a firearm if you are unwilling to protect yourself, your daughter or your community.

    Once again this is not a personal attack.
    Well, thats the psychology of a hardliner for open carry, see, i understand the other side, the cops who are making sure everything is ok, and that i'm legal, it's a hassle, i clearly let them know that i will let myself be known, so that i can be left alone, there will be no next time, i will say i've already told you who i am, you can run me all you want on your own time, but i'm going to keep walking on my way. I am going out today again and i'm going to make extra long loops around the neighborhood so i can educate again hopefully, this time i'm not stopping for anything. i now have this first encounter where i voluntairily cooperated to lean back on, because now it borders on harrassment, so i'm very satisfied with my actions and again, if you choose to do things your way, feel free, i did it mine. I'm not one ot bow down and take harrassment, i gave them a one time "who is this guy" freebie, i'm not a criminal, and now they know me, and have no right or reason to stop me again, of course, they may and they're going to get a very polite cold shoulder.
    When seconds count between life and death the police are only minutes away - Philip Van Cleave

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RgLEGibyXs The Right of the People to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7...eature=related

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    I feel heavily compelled to do an ORR, the initial contact (by WIPI's) account barring any RAS or PC, sounds a little to much like a detention to me.
    BTW, I walk in my neighborhood nearly every day armed, no hassles as of yet, only seems to happen when I go to the gas station!
    My position is this, most LEO that work in my area (zone) know me, either from helping them in the past w/LEO Training, contact w/them (I used to work @ a Downtown bar) or from "around" (IOW) they recognize me or have herd of the past LEO contacts concerning my OC.
    Just like you WIPI (hope u don't mind the abbreviation) I too am familiar w/gun laws, prolly more so than most LEO around here, however, you presented yourself in a manner that was a bit intimidating to atleast one LEO!
    Keep you skills w/you!
    "But you're right, you can choose to talk with them & tell or show them anything.
    When you do, though, it makes things harder for the next person (like qball) to tell them "no" & make it stick without a lot of hassle." MKE gal is correct, I believe I was one of the first in my area to have been contacted my LEO in re to OC.
    Any who, WIPI, you keep on keepin' on, either way, you stay legal and you got a TON of support right here!
    Last edited by qball54208; 06-26-2011 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Q: Are you a cop? A: Yup! Reply: Well then, I'm a WHISTLE!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Really? They were doing something potentially illegal, you let them get away with it.
    well, we will never know because I choose to talk, I stated that from the beginning, what if I said "I'm open carrying, it's perfectly legal, and i'm going on my way, have a great day officers" and then went home. They wouldn't have been happy, they would've sat around dumbfounded, maybe wondering what to do, maybe sat outside my house, but I don't know that they would've arrested me, I had my daughter, they would've taken her since nobody would've been able to take care of her, maybe a lawsuit but my daughter would've been upset and i didn't want that, bas I said, i did what I know they would like me to do, so that it didn't blow up, all the while I told them my rights, they confirmed, they appreciated me doing that, and i told them most people wouldn't have even talked with them, they said they know, that most encounters the person is hostile, and argues etc. in any case, it was my decision, and again, i stated i would be chastised for doing so, but I did it, my own choice to speak with them, I'm not sure if i was detained, I didn't ask, I didn't care, I would've voluntairly entered myself into detention, because i had things to say and we had a good talk, it ended great for both sides, with the cops understanding yet another person is "doing it". I'll let you know how my 2nd and 3rd encounters go when i start getting aggitated for getting stopped.
    Last edited by WisconsinPI; 06-26-2011 at 12:53 PM.
    When seconds count between life and death the police are only minutes away - Philip Van Cleave

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RgLEGibyXs The Right of the People to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7...eature=related

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    Quote Originally Posted by qball54208 View Post
    I feel heavily compelled to do an ORR, the initial contact (by WIPI's) account barring any RAS or PC, sounds a little to much like a detention to me.
    BTW, I walk in my neighborhood nearly every day armed, no hassles as of yet, only seems to happen when I go to the gas station!
    My position is this, most LEO that work in my area (zone) know me, either from helping them in the past w/LEO Training, contact w/them (I used to work @ a Downtown bar) or from "around" (IOW) they recognize me or have herd of the past LEO contacts concerning my OC.
    Just like you WIPI (hope u don't mind the abbreviation) I too am familiar w/gun laws, prolly more so than most LEO around here, however, you presented yourself in a manner that was a bit intimidating to atleast one LEO!
    Keep you skills w/you!
    "But you're right, you can choose to talk with them & tell or show them anything.
    When you do, though, it makes things harder for the next person (like qball) to tell them "no" & make it stick without a lot of hassle." MKE gal is correct, I believe I was one of the first in my area to have been contacted my LEO in re to OC.
    Any who, WIPI, you keep on keepin' on, either way, you stay legal and you got a TON of support right here!
    I get it, and appreciate your understanding. I wanna clear it up right now, my choice was my choice and if qball chooses to take a different approach thats his right, the cops can't do anything about it, see, i understand people want continuous hard stances against it so that eventually it wont be an issue, we need more people carrying to get there. My reaction, or someone else just ignoring them and walking on, doesn't change the law, we are all free to go, and free to carry.
    Last edited by WisconsinPI; 06-26-2011 at 12:59 PM.
    When seconds count between life and death the police are only minutes away - Philip Van Cleave

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RgLEGibyXs The Right of the People to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7...eature=related

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    Sounds like these police officers were doing their job. They received a MWAG call and proceeded to take a look. They could have easily done a driveby and seen you were legal and all but from what i have read they were not the type of officers that are cops for the gun and badge only. Seems like a good encounter to me.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WisconsinPI View Post
    ... we need more people carrying to get there.
    Once again I would like to point out that you could not be further from the truth.

    While more people engaging in their 2A rights would be great it, will do nothing if those very people do not stand up for freedom. A slave with a gun is still a slave.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 06-26-2011 at 01:30 PM.
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    You chose to willingly give up your freedom. You actions negatively effect your community. You just gave the tyrants a green light to continue their illegal activity not only with you but your neighbors.

    So it begs the question why you carry a firearm if you are unwilling to protect yourself, your daughter or your community.

    Once again this is not a personal attack.
    No, it really is a personal attack when you make a statement like "unwilling to protect yourself, your daughter, your community". Those are insulting words.
    It was a consentual stop and he chose to identify himself consentually. He also told the officers that he knew his rights and was free to leave. I have no problems with this. Not every encounter needs to be a adversarial one.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    No, it really is a personal attack when you make a statement like "unwilling to protect yourself, your daughter, your community". Those are insulting words.
    Of course you are entitled to your opinion. But it does not charge the facts. The OP chose to open carry either to protect himself, his loved ones, and his community. Or he chose to OC to engage in his rights under the Constitution and make a political statement. Or his reasoning is a combination of both.

    Either way the second he had an encounter he chose to NOT defend himself, his family, and his community, our rights, or the Constitution. I'm sorry, that is a fact. We are under attack daily. Just because it is not a crazed gunman and you don't need to unholster a sidearm does not mean the threat isn't there, didn't happen, or simply went away by ignoring it or making excuses.

    Freedom is not free no matter how many excuses are posted. You either fight for it and die free or become a slave. Too many people gave up their lives for that piece of paper for it to be ignored, just for the sake of a pleasant afternoon altercation with tyrants.



    And I'd also like to point out that it "is not their job" to run the ID of a citizen out for a walk with his daughter. I have a real problem with that.

    IMHO
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 06-26-2011 at 07:29 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member msteinhilber's Avatar
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    Wouldn't have given out my identification, they had no reason to need it.

    People really need to stop the whole practice of dishing out ID anytime a cop crosses the street less people really desire a papers please society.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Of course you are entitled to your opinion. But it does not charge the facts. The OP chose to open carry either to protect himself, his loved ones, and his community. Or he chose to OC to engage in his rights under the Constitution and make a political statement. Or his reasoning is a combination of both.

    Either way the second he had an encounter he chose to NOT defend himself, his family, and his community, our rights, or the Constitution. I'm sorry, that is a fact. We are under attack daily. Just because it is not a crazed gunman and you don't need to unholster a sidearm does not mean the threat isn't there, didn't happen, or simply went away by ignoring it or making excuses.
    Your opinion is no more valid than mine. That is a fact. You may have a right to be a jerk to every cop you meet but we have a right to be cordial also. That is also a fact. Do not even begin to suggest that anyone who does not prescribe to your SOP of confrontation is not willing to lay down their life in the defense of the CONUS. You sir are out of line for suggesting such a thing.
    Wise men pick their battles. Every police encounter does not have to be a battle.
    I carry for defense, plain and simple. The fact that I have the opportunity to educate others on their right to carry is merely a positive result of carrying for defense.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 06-26-2011 at 09:05 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WisconsinPI View Post
    i know people will give me crap for submitting my information, but i don't need to play mr secretive, it's my right, i've got nothing to hide and i want them to know me, and know i'm going to be carrying,
    If you were not a PI, I would hope you have handled it differently. But being a PI, I understand you desire for them to become familiar with you incase you have contact with them during any course of business. I am assuming PI stands for Private Investigator.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Apr 2009
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    I recently Moved back to the eastside little mexico as i call it from west GB & The DePere area, I live just a few house away from Farlin Park, after 4 months , I have witnessed 6 Drug deals, 4 in the Park & 2 recently in front of my residence , I open carry all the time & everytime I walk the dog now. there is just too much gangland drug dealing BS in this area which is a haven for Illegals & Bangers. I keep a Loaded Mossberg 590 behind the front door & my AR15 next to the bed with my Glock under the pillow when I sleep.. I have yet to have a LE encounter while being out and about with my OC weapon since I began OCing alot 2.5 years ago, just lucky maybe but when I do take the dog for a walk I "forget" my wallet at home...oooops officer no ID sorry I know a few GB cops the ones I know are decent people. I guess I am what you called a Hardline uber Constitutionalist but thats an entirely different story
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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