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Thread: Carrying in Windsor Castle Park - Smithfield

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    Carrying in Windsor Castle Park - Smithfield

    Was planning a trip to this Smithfield city park and found the following in their Park User Guide:
    "4) Weapons
    Unauthorized persons shall not carry concealed weapons, nor shall they have on or about their person dangerous or deadly weapons, in public park and recreation facilities. Further no hunting is allowed."

    The above seems rather interesting as to me it seems to be an attempt to imply that you cannot OC or CC. Obviously only "authorized" persons can CC, so they're word gaming that, but then doesn't their "dangerous or deadly weapons" part of the statement imply no carry? Which they of course cannot do. Is this just them being "clever" in trying to imply that you cannot carry or am I reading too much into this?

    Added: Found that this is actually also codified in their Code of Ordinances:
    Sec. 70-221 Rules and regulations for Windsor Castle Park:
    (4) Weapons. Unauthorized persons shall not carry concealed weapons, nor shall they have on or about their person dangerous or deadly weapons, in public park and recreation facilities. Further no hunting is allowed.
    Last edited by Glockster; 06-26-2011 at 08:32 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Was planning a trip to this Smithfield city park and found the following in their Park User Guide:
    "4) Weapons
    Unauthorized persons shall not carry concealed weapons, nor shall they have on or about their person dangerous or deadly weapons, in public park and recreation facilities. Further no hunting is allowed."

    The above seems rather interesting as to me it seems to be an attempt to imply that you cannot OC or CC. Obviously only "authorized" persons can CC, so they're word gaming that, but then doesn't their "dangerous or deadly weapons" part of the statement imply no carry? Which they of course cannot do. Is this just them being "clever" in trying to imply that you cannot carry or am I reading too much into this?

    Added: Found that this is actually also codified in their Code of Ordinances:
    Sec. 70-221 Rules and regulations for Windsor Castle Park:
    (4) Weapons. Unauthorized persons shall not carry concealed weapons, nor shall they have on or about their person dangerous or deadly weapons...., in public park and recreation facilities. Further no hunting is allowed.
    After you get a CHP you're authorized to CC

    nor shall they have on or about their person dangerous or deadly weapons
    Preemption knocked that out as far as firearms.

    No Hunting they can get away with.
    Last edited by peter nap; 06-26-2011 at 08:50 AM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    A quick look reveals that Smithfield has a number of preempted ordinances still on the books. They need some serious housekeeping.

    Anybody live in the county who wants to let them know about it?

    Smithfield Municode

    They have violations of both regular preemption as well as the new BB gun preemption.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    A quick look reveals that Smithfield has a number of preempted ordinances still on the books. They need some serious housekeeping.

    Anybody live in the county who wants to let them know about it?

    Smithfield Municode

    They have violations of both regular preemption as well as the new BB gun preemption.

    TFred
    If we don't have an locals I'll do it Tfred. It's close enough to Surry that it feels like a second home.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If we don't have an locals I'll do it Tfred. It's close enough to Surry that it feels like a second home.
    If you go down there, drop me a line. I'd like to join you if I'm available.

    I know someone that lives in that area, but I think he's playing sandbox volleyball at the moment.

    Craig? You back home yet?
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    If you go down there, drop me a line. I'd like to join you if I'm available.

    I know someone that lives in that area, but I think he's playing sandbox volleyball at the moment.

    Craig? You back home yet?
    Mike,
    I'm back and I carry concealed at Windsor Park on a regular basis. I've never seen any signs posted before but I'm ready to assist as always.
    Craig
    Last edited by ODA 226; 06-27-2011 at 12:45 PM.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Welcome Back, Big Brother.
    I'm glad to hear of your safe return. Hope you didn't grow too many more grey hairs during your deployment.
    I know you shave them so we don't know how many you really have with your job and family as contributors. How did your PEQ-2 hold up while you were there? I hope it reminded you of me every time you used it.
    Are you getting old enough to use a PEQ-6 yet? It sucks getting old... Don't do it. The eyes are usually the Second "thing" to go... ;-)

    Very Respectfully;
    Mike
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    Welcome Back, Big Brother.
    I'm glad to hear of your safe return. Hope you didn't grow too many more grey hairs during your deployment.
    I know you shave them so we don't know how many you really have with your job and family as contributors. How did your PEQ-2 hold up while you were there? I hope it reminded you of me every time you used it.
    Are you getting old enough to use a PEQ-6 yet? It sucks getting old... Don't do it. The eyes are usually the Second "thing" to go... ;-)

    Very Respectfully;
    Mike
    Why ODA.............are you using a laser?

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Smithfield's not part of my AO usually but I had thought about checking out that park one day. Tuning in...
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  10. #10
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    I just sent a certified letter to the Smithfield Town Manager regarding this issue. I'll post his response once I receive it.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Seems like that since I started this by asking the question that I should say thank you. So, thanks for jumping on this!

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    why oda.............are you using a laser?
    nope!
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    I received a prompt reply from the Town Manager:

    Mr. ODA 226,

    I am in receipt of your letter regarding the language in our park handout. I will be providing a copy of this to our Police Department for their review. Should the language need to be amended to comply with state code I am more than happy to make such changes. I simply “borrowed” the original language based on examples I had received from other public park facilities in the region.

    Peter M. Stephenson, AICP, ICMA-CM
    Smithfield Town Manager
    Immediate Past President, VLGMA

    I responded with:

    Mr. Stephenson,
    Please accept my thanks for your quick reply. In no way do I want to have an adversarial relationship with you or the Town of Smithfield. I am just a citizen concerned with firearms rights under the Constitution of Virginia.

    May I suggest that you address this issue to the Isle of Wight Commonwealth's Attorney's Office or to the State Attorney General's Office. I believe they would be better positioned to advise you about this issue than the Smithfield Police Department.

    Recently,there have been other localities in Virginia that had similar verbiage printed in their park rules who were forced to remove the ban on the legal carry of firearms, the most recent one I can recall was Waterside Park in Norfolk.

    Please keep me advised of your actions and I thank you once again for your quick reply!

    Happy Independence Day!

    I will post any updates as soon as I receive them.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quick resolution!

    I just received this from the Town Manager:

    Mr. ODA 226,

    Thank you once again for your letter requesting language revisions to our park general use guide that we circulate via single sheet, folded paper copy at the park entrances. Paragraph 4 regarding Weapons has been revised as suggested to read, “Illegal weapons are not permitted in public park and recreation facilities. Further no hunting is allowed.” We are making new copies today for distribution. Old copies (pre-revision) that remain in the boxes will be removed and recycled, and we will place the new version in each of the entrance boxes. I took this opportunity to make a few other unrelated changes so the timing worked out well. I appreciate you bringing this issue to my attention.

    Peter M. Stephenson, AICP, ICMA-CM
    Town Manager - Smithfield, Virginia

    I think this is a very quick response and resolution to this situation.

    226
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Excellent! Did they also say that they were changing the ordinance that the park rules came from?



    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    I just received this from the Town Manager:

    Mr. ODA 226,

    Thank you once again for your letter requesting language revisions to our park general use guide that we circulate via single sheet, folded paper copy at the park entrances. Paragraph 4 regarding Weapons has been revised as suggested to read, “Illegal weapons are not permitted in public park and recreation facilities. Further no hunting is allowed.” We are making new copies today for distribution. Old copies (pre-revision) that remain in the boxes will be removed and recycled, and we will place the new version in each of the entrance boxes. I took this opportunity to make a few other unrelated changes so the timing worked out well. I appreciate you bringing this issue to my attention.

    Peter M. Stephenson, AICP, ICMA-CM
    Town Manager - Smithfield, Virginia

    I think this is a very quick response and resolution to this situation.

    226

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    I just received this from the Town Manager:

    Mr. ODA 226,

    Thank you once again for your letter requesting language revisions to our park general use guide that we circulate via single sheet, folded paper copy at the park entrances. Paragraph 4 regarding Weapons has been revised as suggested to read, “Illegal weapons are not permitted in public park and recreation facilities. Further no hunting is allowed.” We are making new copies today for distribution. Old copies (pre-revision) that remain in the boxes will be removed and recycled, and we will place the new version in each of the entrance boxes. I took this opportunity to make a few other unrelated changes so the timing worked out well. I appreciate you bringing this issue to my attention.

    Peter M. Stephenson, AICP, ICMA-CM
    Town Manager - Smithfield, Virginia

    I think this is a very quick response and resolution to this situation.

    226


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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    My Reply to Town Manager

    Mr. Stephenson,
    Thank you for your quick reaction to my letter and taking positive steps to come to a resolution.

    If you haven't consulted the Smithfield Police Department on this issue, could you please advise the Chief of Police that Open Carry and licensed Concealed Carry constitutes the LEGAL carry of firearms under Virginia law and that legally armed citizens should not be suspect or otherwise viewed as threats when and if legally carrying firearms at Windsor Castle Park?

    Thank you once again Sir!

    226
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Excellent! Did they also say that they were changing the ordinance that the park rules came from?
    It was never an ordinance. Mr. Stephenson told me that he simply copied Rules and Regulations from other parks in the area, hence my reply to him posted above.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Mr. Stephenson's Response to My Last Letter

    Yes sir, Chief Marshall concurred with your assessment. This incorrect "borrowed" language was my oversight alone.

    Mr. Stephenson has proven to be a real gentleman! We could stand to have more people in government like him!
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    It was never an ordinance. Mr. Stephenson told me that he simply copied Rules and Regulations from other parks in the area, hence my reply to him posted above.
    "Added: Found that this is actually also codified in their Code of Ordinances:
    Sec. 70-221 Rules and regulations for Windsor Castle Park:
    (4) Weapons. Unauthorized persons shall not carry concealed weapons, nor shall they have on or about their person dangerous or deadly weapons, in public park and recreation facilities. Further no hunting is allowed."

    But the above (from my first post) is directly out of the Code of Ordinances. So while they may have copied it from other parks or whatever, they also then included the exact same language in their municipal code. And if that's still there, it would seem that it doesn't matter that they deleted it from the park's flyer?

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    "Added: Found that this is actually also codified in their Code of Ordinances:
    Sec. 70-221 Rules and regulations for Windsor Castle Park:
    (4) Weapons. Unauthorized persons shall not carry concealed weapons, nor shall they have on or about their person dangerous or deadly weapons, in public park and recreation facilities. Further no hunting is allowed."

    But the above (from my first post) is directly out of the Code of Ordinances. So while they may have copied it from other parks or whatever, they also then included the exact same language in their municipal code. And if that's still there, it would seem that it doesn't matter that they deleted it from the park's flyer?
    Can you send me a link to that Code?
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    Can you send me a link to that Code?
    http://library.municode.com/HTML/115...RTVWICAPA.html

    Of course that could be out of date, but that then still doesn't quite jive with what he was saying about him alone just putting it into the park literature.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    Can you send me a link to that Code?
    It's ugly, but that is the nature of Municode links.

    If you go back to the Smithfield home page, you can see that there are two ordinances listed that have not yet been folded into the database. Neither have to do with this.

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    http://library.municode.com/HTML/115...RTVWICAPA.html

    Of course that could be out of date, but that then still doesn't quite jive with what he was saying about him alone just putting it into the park literature.
    The two "new" ordinances that I mentioned were dated June 7, 2011, so anything done prior to that should either be listed on that same page, or in the database already.

    Only an ordinance passed after June 7 could be missing from the Municode page.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    It's ugly, but that is the nature of Municode links.

    If you go back to the Smithfield home page, you can see that there are two ordinances listed that have not yet been folded into the database. Neither have to do with this.

    TFred
    I think that you may have lost me -- I just followed your link, which leads to the same municode page?

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