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Thread: The Current State of ALOC & My Role In It

  1. #1
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    www.alabamaopencarry.com

    Post edited - Out of date
    Last edited by Dianosis; 05-04-2013 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Out of date

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    Your intentions notwithstanding, your site has become the OC movement in Alabama. If you respect that movement, you will accept that fact and do more than pay lip service to not being the leader, but in fact move toward subordinating your tool to the movement and truly making the movement grassroots.

    You can see my criticism as a lack of respect. You, not I, are responsible for how you view things. But, my criticism will not stop until there is no longer a reason to criticize. You may exercise the power to shut my criticism up on your site, but, when you bring it here, every time you bring it here, I will respond with further criticism of the heavy-handed way you have tried to control the movement.

    Please don't play the my-hands-are-clean card. They are not. You just had more power in the situation.

    On edit: I would rather see an organization formally created and ALOC join that movement as an arm of it in a true grassroots manner. If the person who exercises control over the site is unwilling to have that happen, then I will lend support (time, money, and effort) to making it happen independent of ALOC. That would be a shame.
    Last edited by eye95; 06-28-2011 at 01:58 PM.

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    Di,
    My 2 cents worth.
    If it were not for your devotion to the cause of promoting OC awareness, your inteligence to create the site, your drive to see it through, your time to guide its devlopment, none of us here on this site would be benefiting from it.
    This site is well respected not only in Alabama but nationwide. It provides its intended purpose, of educating the public, and those inquiring about the laws of Alabama as they pertain to open carry of firearms.
    You have succeded in your quest to see your thoughts of providing a venue for like minded individuals to come together and further the cause of open carry.
    For the hard work and many hours you have devoted to this project, I can say nothing but thank you.
    Your intent and methods are both honorable from where I stand.
    Last edited by AirBear; 06-28-2011 at 05:37 PM.

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    There are at least 47 references to self in the opening post of this thread. This is very revealing indeed, and stands as a guidpost to those who would understand the author's internal needs for writing it and the REAL current state of ALOC.
    Last edited by Ruger .454; 06-28-2011 at 09:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruger .454 View Post
    There are at least 47 references to self in the opening post of this thread. This is very revealing indeed, and stands as a guidpost to those who would understand the author's internal needs for writing it and the REAL current state of ALOC.
    There are at least 2 references to A$$holes after the opening post. ROFL

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Personal opinion (and not addressed to any one individual): If, and I say "If", there's going to be a urinating contest, why are you putting it on OCDO for everyone, not just those in Alabama, to see?

    My Dad told me a long, long time ago to keep the family's dirty laundry within the family. And here we have members of the ALOC family airing the dirty laundry in a very public manner. This should have been discussed, IMNSHO, via PMs or email.

    No, I'm not a mod. Just expressing my personal opinion.

  7. #7
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Amigo!
    Okay, if you don't like "founder" or "president", why not call yourself what you see yourself as: The WEBMASTER!

    That title, as I see your expressed intention in creating your site, would be the most accurate one available. Or, if that one doesn't quite suite, how about ADMINISTRATOR?

    There ya go. Sorted for ya!
    Hope all goes well for your endeavor.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    But, my criticism will not stop until there is no longer a reason to criticize.
    Howdy!
    Those who can... do! Those who can't, criticize!

    Would that quoted line justify my criticism of your failure to provide documentation to another post (which you haven't) by following you around to ask why you haven't provided that information?

    I will stop my criticism when there is no longer a reason to criticize your claim that members of the OCDO forum called for revolt against our government. Where is your proof? I'm calling you out on that point.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Respectfully,

    True "grassroots" is democracy, and that doesn't work too well. The Republic is a better form.

    I think if anything, grassroots needs to be defined. Dictatorship has been defined. What does "grassroots" mean?
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    Respectfully,

    True "grassroots" is democracy, and that doesn't work too well. The Republic is a better form.

    I think if anything, grassroots needs to be defined. Dictatorship has been defined. What does "grassroots" mean?
    Successful organizations I've been a part of in the past have always had a Constitution, Bylaws, elected officers (direct election or by a directly elected board of directors) and maybe an elected board of directors for larger organizations. Also, the successful ones had a weak executive and a strong board of directors or such body; the least successful had less written organization and a strong executive.

  11. #11
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    Ergo, Organization is organized.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    Respectfully,

    True "grassroots" is democracy, and that doesn't work too well. The Republic is a better form.

    I think if anything, grassroots needs to be defined. Dictatorship has been defined. What does "grassroots" mean?
    Grassroots means that power filters up from the bottom. Our nation was founded to be grassroots, but has fallen away from that to some extent. The State gained its authority to govern from the People. The federal government gained its limited power from the States' having agreed to give it some of their power through the Constitution.

    Almost all other governments in the world are top-down. Some think France has a government similar to ours, since they have a central government, departments (the rough equivalent of our States) beneath that, and further political subdivisions under the departments. The difference is that, in France, the departments are subordinate to the central government. France is a top-down hierarchy. Power is vested in the central government. Yes, the people, through elections, choose most of the members of that central government. However, France does not recognize the individual as supreme, as our system was designed to do (but is moving away from).

    The most extreme form of top-down government is the dictatorship, where one man has all the power. He may delegate some authority to others in a hierarchical structure, but he will not tolerate his underlings straying too far from his party line.

    In organizations, the tea parties are probably the best examples of grass roots. Individuals may exercise leadership roles, but the power and the direction of movement comes from the masses of people who have banded loosely together and chosen to move in the same direction. The Brady Bunch are probably the best example of a top-down, non-grassroots organization. The people don't set the direction. The leadership does, and the people follow. The NRA is top-down to a slightly lesser extent. They use their massive membership. They are not moved by it.

    On a scale of US as founded, US as now, France, and dictatorship, ALOC is probably at the France level and needs to move through US as now, all the way to US as founded, that is tea-partyish.

    That was an awful lot to convey the idea of "grassroots." However, grassroots is not one man whose desires hold sway, even if he is willing to listen to the ideas of others. He MUST defer to direction from the masses. He MUST be open to unretaliated criticism of his actions. He MUST rely on the servant model of leadership, not a controlling model.

    The movement of OC in AL has grown large enough that we need to form a grassroots organization, one that is capable of accepting leadership if it represents the desires of the masses, or rejecting it when it becomes arbitrary and capricious.

    I would prefer that that grassroots organization grow out of the existing group of people at ALOC and that ALOC become the Internet arm of that group, even to the point where the two are indistinguishable. Alternatively, the group could be formed independently of ALOC, with ALOC signing on in a support role and adopting a bottom-up model. The least palatable, but still acceptable, option would be a separate group is formed, creates its own Internet arm, and works with an independent ALOC which can maintain whatever structure the person who chooses to maintain control over it desires.

    Ultimately, any grassroots organization for OC in AL will be the effort of a group of people who draw others along who will select a leadership group that moves in the direction the group would have it move.

    It is going to happen. It is just a matter of how it happens. I hope the membership of ALOC does it from within. That may or may not be possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    Successful organizations I've been a part of in the past have always had a Constitution, Bylaws, elected officers (direct election or by a directly elected board of directors) and maybe an elected board of directors for larger organizations. Also, the successful ones had a weak executive and a strong board of directors or such body; the least successful had less written organization and a strong executive.
    The most successful ones I have belonged to followed this model, with the executive handling day-to-day business, leaving navigation to the group of directors.

    Again, I hope this move comes from within ALOC. If it doesn't, you would be a great asset in helping organize it from without. SFCRetired has expressed a strong interest in helping. Kirbinator has a good head on his shoulders, and we sure could use his level-headedness. It would be great if Dianosis came along; that just may not be possible.

    There are many others I can think of whom I would love their support. Johathon is a get-it-done kind of guy who is obviously willing to take risks. Ruger is passionate, even if we don't always agree on methods. Ranger is an organization man. Hoss has heart and drive. McDonalk (Mystic) thinks things through, coming to thoughtful conclusions (again, not always in agreement with mine ). There are lots of other good folks at ALOC and here. We can get it done through ALOC or not, but we can get it done.

    All we need is a core of six to ten founding members.

  14. #14
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    Well, regardless of whatever has happened, the past is past. We can't magic the schism closed and make the church whole again in one wave of a hand. Let's move past that and figure out a direction or several directions to move it and make this a positive point for the community, the state, and the "membership".

    Therefore and forthright, I'm going to ask that anyone who has any ideas on organizing an organization step forward, throw out the bits that they know best and understand, the pros and cons, and what they want to see most in an organization and what goals it should accomplish. Try to keep civil, please do not use this as an open invitation to attack each other for faults real, imagined, and slights of the past. If you were organizing a group tomorrow, how would you do it?
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    See? Level-headed.

    Let's start a new thread for those ideas. That has the best chance of a non-partisan start. It would probably be better if I did not start it. Would you?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Again, I hope this move comes from within ALOC. If it doesn't, you would be a great asset in helping organize it from without. SFCRetired has expressed a strong interest in helping. Kirbinator has a good head on his shoulders, and we sure could use his level-headedness. It would be great if Dianosis came along; that just may not be possible.

    There are many others I can think of whom I would love their support. Johathon is a get-it-done kind of guy who is obviously willing to take risks. Ruger is passionate, even if we don't always agree on methods. Ranger is an organization man. Hoss has heart and drive. McDonalk (Mystic) thinks things through, coming to thoughtful conclusions (again, not always in agreement with mine ). There are lots of other good folks at ALOC and here. We can get it done through ALOC or not, but we can get it done.

    All we need is a core of six to ten founding members.
    Thank you for your kind words, but are we building an organization or following a yellow brick road? Who is going to wear the Ruby Slippers?
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    The organization will help us follow the Yellow-Brick Road to the OZ of Liberty.

    Yeah. That was corny. Sorry.

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    I'm thinking about a serious reply... It's gonna take a bit.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Ok, I have something to add NOW

    Don't know what personal beefs y'all in AL have with each other, but I think there are lessons to be learned from this board.

    Contact the MI guys (I think), us in VA, and some PA guys, or dig into the threads. Why?

    MI was using OCDO as their "official" organizational website for Michigan Open Carry and things got acrimonious to some degree. There are pages and pages of stuff, people leaving , bashing, all kinds of crap. Some of it was over the OC of an AR variant to a meet-up.

    There is little action in the PA section of this board because folks up there do most of their posting through PAFOA, the Penn. Firearm Owners Association board. We always get their stuff later here. They post there first. PAFOA does rightous work.

    In VA, the most politically active and successful 2A group is the VCDL, the Virginia Citizens Defense League. They are a dues paying membership deal, have their own website, send a newsletter and on-line updates, sometimes mesh with OCDO, and many folks move seamlessly between the two groups, but VCDL is not OC specific. As far as I know, we have no "Virginia Open Carry" group but use OCDO to do meet-ups and such. There is no open carry "leadership" except by example.

    OCDO is a free message board owned by John and Mike. They are God here.

    I guess my point is, there is a lot of room in the space. Start your own newsletter. Start your own website. Start whatever the hell you want. I am a free market guy. As the comic George Carlin said in one of his bits, "If you don't like the weather, MOVE!". Trying to mold something someone else set up into your vision is foolish, IMO, kinda like trying to reform a spouse.

    Best of luck to all of you rights advocates in the great State of Alabama. Iron out your differences or not, but move our freedoms foreward. The cream will rise to the top.

    Sic Semper Tyrannus,

    Riverrat.

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    Guys and gals! I don't know what happened, but I hate to see it aired out for the world to read... the same world that may already think we are nuts... now, they have confirmation. I have learned much from the ALOC site, but mostly from the posts that I read there, many of which were made by Ruger, Daylen, Ranger, and Eye. Yes, there are more, but these are some of the brightest that really stand out. And I admit I do have some extra respect for Dianosis for starting and managing the website; that is a daunting task, and I don't see how I could expect him to do more. We all want the same thing - our RKBA not to be infringed. I am not opposed to the formation of an organization if that is what it takes to make it happen. I will say that I don't want another leader, another boss, or another organization (public or private) to "tell" me what I can and can't do. We have so many rediculous rules and laws already that the people paid to enforce them don't know all of them. Most of us are tired of infringement of our lives, governmental or otherwise. We really want our freedom. It would be an impossible task to get this group all in agreement because, by our nature, we are open minded, out-of-the-box thinking, "show me proof," and freedom loving. Cookie cutter likely will not work. One more point: text is a difficult communication tool because you lose the personal parts: meanings get twisted, humor is seen as offensive, and frustration/advice gets confused with anger/demands. I think a meetup is in order to have face-to-face communication and move forward. Thanks to everyone for everything you have done thus far. Don't lose steam now.

  21. #21
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    Two things:

    1. Good leaders don't "do more." They motivate others.

    2. If you think that organizations "tell you what to do," that is part of the problem. In a true grassroots organization, the membership (as a whole) tells the leadership what to do, not vice versa.

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    Bigdawg

    We have to do something to keep us moving forward..Every good cause has its bad times but the good ones pick it up and move forward..The first step would be to find out what DI thinks about OUR website and ALL of us using it to get back to our movement..We need all the people we had no matter what that they small problems they have between themselves..Where we can call out leadership when we think there is a problem and not worry about small bull crap..

    FTW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Packin' View Post
    Guys and gals! I don't know what happened, but I hate to see it aired out for the world to read... We really want our freedom.
    I think that this airing is a necessary step forward, and that it can't happen in the ALOC forums where posts are deleted without discussion and people's accounts are cancelled without discussion or recourse. There is nowhere else where this work can be done but here. And it is work!

    I'm all about your comment on freedom, Packin', and the whole national and historical context of OC is vital to keep in mind. Americans historically do not like to be told what they can't do. The British Crown told the colonists that they could not expand westward of the Ohio River, that they had to quarter English troops in their homes, etc. You KNOW how that turned out, and the operative characteristics are still resident in our culture and national persona. The whole concept of the rugged individual springs from that, and any number of American icons (John Wayne, Charlton Heston,Ted Nuggent, etc.) have built careers on it. If that's true for the nation in general, how much more true for Americans who want to exercise the freedom to go to the bank with a firearm on their hip! Whatever we do from here, it simply must be in consonace with who we are as Americans, and it must have enough flexibility in it to accommodate the rugged individuals still among us. I think that failure on those two points will presage failure on all points.

    If we're going to do this, we're going to need leadership that is elected by dues-paying members which may also be removed from office via a similar process. As Daylen and riverrat have indicated, our success will be enhanced by some level of formal organization. Bylaws. (Take a deep breath, John.) We're going to need some, but with conscious observance of the factors in the paragraph immediately above.

    I am ready to pay reasonable dues. Dues collections means that we're going to need a bank account with officers who have access to the funds, may expend them for appropriate purposes, and are accountable to the dues paying membership for those expenditures on a regular basis. Every church in America is able to manage this on a shoestring, and we can too. We simply must want to do it enough to do it and do it well.
    Last edited by Ruger .454; 06-30-2011 at 02:32 PM.

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    I think everyone has good intentions here. We are very diverse, but all have the same goals. Let's keep that in mind as we press forward. I still am pressing for a face-to-face sit-down meetup. What's the worst that can happen? After all, everyone will be armed.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    I think a face-to-face meet-up is a great idea! We should set a date and try to have a framework from which to brainstorm by then. Someone on ALOC had mentioned Labor Day, I think. That works for me, how about everyone here?

    Eye95, I agree with most of your "Grassroots means" post, the exception to which is that I don't feel that ALOC has reached the 'France' level yet. It may just be that I operate outside of the 'Central Government' for the most part, though.

    As for your following post, where you discussed a core of people working to form the Organization, I'm with you 100%. Or rather, I hope you're still with us 100%. Whatever. The point is, we are still working toward that idea, it's just coming in fits and starts right now. I'd be happy to work alongside any of the people you named. Except for that mcdonalk (Mystic Lemur) guy. He's a ******.

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