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Anyone ever have this problem?

MKEgal

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jpm84092 said:
When I took my instructor training we were told that if we heard horror stories like yours from our students, we were to refer the person with the horror story to BCI.

According to the BCI page about concealed firearms:
If you have any questions for the BCI Firearms Division, you may contact us by phone (801) 965-4445 or eMail to DPSFIREARMS@utah.gov

I'd really like to know the # of the law for that "gun time-out"...
Maybe the officer will have time to look it up while he's suspended.
Start with the BCI - email today, follow up w/ a call Tues. - then on Tues. find a lawyer.
Today or tomorrow write & mail an open records request, so it's in the mailbox to be processed on Tues. morning.
Depending on what BCI does, you might not even have to initiate contact w/ the Chief.
 
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Utah_Patriot

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Jun 13, 2008
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Kearns, Utah, USA
Question?

Cameron hey I have some info for you that pertains to this incident.
I need some information from you so I can help.

I would like to sit down and discuss some aspects of the stop.
I have some great contacts and good information that we can sit down and talk about.

My number is 8014487574 please call me.
 

Gunslinger

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Free, Colorado, USA
My name is Cameron Bybee, I'm new to these forums, but I feel a strong need to get this out.

On Saturday night, June 25th, 2011, I was charged with Disorderly Conduct for doing absolutely nothing by Officer Jeffrey Potter of the Cottonwood Heights Police Department.


I walked to the Target on 7025 S. Park Center Drive, in Salt Lake City, Utah, from my home in Midvale 30 minutes away, at approx. 9:50 PM to walk my fiancee home from work. I arrived at approx. 10:15 PM, I had my firearm (a 1911) on my hip in a holster, strapped down inside it with NO BULLET in the chamber and the hammer forward, in PLAIN SIGHT, as I always do at night when I walk my fiancee home from her night shifts. Upon arrival at Target, I walked to the cafe where she works and sat in my usual seat at the Starbucks Cafe inside the store, waiting for her. At exactly 10:26 PM, June 25th, 2011 (according to the ticket), three officers walked into the store and over to me, Officer Potter began to ask me some questions "hey, how are you this evening?" I looked up from my phone. "Eh, exhausted, but good." Potter gave a false smile to me. "Good, good. Are you armed?" I tilted my head slightly "yes, Sir, indeed I am." I knew what was going on. "Can you stand up slowly and turn so I can see it?" being as respectful as possible, I answered "Yes, sir" and did as they asked, figuring this would be a simple 'check-and-go'. one of the other officers (his name escapes me) took my firearm out of it's holster, checked it, set it on the table I was previously sitting at, and asked "do you have any Identification on you?" I nodded "yes, sir, in my wallet." I took my wallet out and handed them the ID, and put my wallet back. I realize this was a stupid idea, but I figured it would look better should things go awry. The officer (rather forcefully) turned me around and began to cuff me, informing me that I was being charged with Misdemeanor Disorderly Conduct, didn't even read me my rights. I was removed from the store by the police officers, Officer Potter escorting me and doing nothing but cursing and personally insulting me the entire time (I think i saw a sailor blushing off by the Deli) while I tried to ask why I was being charged with Disorderly Conduct, and every time i tried to defend myself verbally, he said "Shut up and listen, you can't listen to me when you're talking.", things like that, basically making sure i could not speak. as we made it outside, I counted four police cars (two cruisers, two SUV's) and more cops than needed for something like this. Officer Potter stuffed into the police cruiser, almost hitting my head on the roof unintentionally, and sat there for what felt like hours. As Potter walked away towards the store, I could see my fiancee and three employees (all managers) sitting on a nearby bench as if waiting for me. She looked like she was about to break down into tears, i felt my heart sink and go "plop" right in my stomach. When he came back, he did some stuff on his computer. I saw a picture of me come up and i joked "Not a very flattering picture, eh?" he gave no response. Potter then called another officer in and asked for a cheat sheet, a list of all of Utah's penal codes and statutes. "Have you been drinking this evening?" He asked me, i shook my head slightly and responded "No, I have not." This is where concern kicked in, as that was met with a muttered "Dammit..." from Potter. I shook my head quickly and asked "What was that?" He chuckled lightly and said to me "Oh, only joking." Somehow, I doubted it. I don't think his boss will like it if I file the complaint and put what he said on it. more time passed, more questions asked, and finally, I think the killing blow to his career hit. he said, very clearly, "I f**king HATE Utah's laws!" before getting out of the car shortly after. I sat there as they went into the trunk to lock away my firearm, likely writing things down. "It's a...oh, it's a Citadel. F**king piece of sh*t Citadel." Potter began to mock my FIREARM now. I love my gun, and did not appreciate his constant insults towards me NOR my firearm. Finally, he closed the trunk and let me out, beginning another barrage of insults before un-cuffing me. My wrists were red as blood from the cuffs, my left index finger twitched like it was having a seizure. he looked at me and said something similar to "now, if you do anything stupid, try to run, sudden movements, we're going to beat the sh*t out of you, mace you, taze you, the works, you understand?" a direct THREAT to me. I respectfully nodded and responded "Well, yeah, I kinda figured that, I'm not THAT dumb." he rolled his eyes and said "Okay, now, Mr. Bybee..." and began to explain what I was being charged with and why, the charges making no sense, his explanation was "Causing a Disturbance". I asked him again WHY I was even being charged, and he responded with "f**king gun, f**king store." same story. I began to feel concern for my gun and began to ask for it back. "Now I'm not charging you because of the gun, but I AM taking it." I asked why i can't have it back, he responded "because I'm putting you in 'gun time out' okay?" Of course, some of the time, Officer Potter was much more coarse. he began to lecture me on what HE can do with a gun, as if i have never used a gun in my life, constantly citing his training as a police officer. the same quote running through my mind over and over, "You're a cop, I'M NOT!", but never exiting my mouth. I signed the ticket and they left without a second word, an empty holster on my belt, red, near bloody wrists, and a broken state of mind. We began our silent trek home, my mind a jumbled mess of How's and Why's.

Anyone ever had this problem with Cottonwood Heights police before? I've been OCing for close to a year now and NEVER had a problem until that day.

Get a lawyer and start planning how you're going to spend the award you'll get from this pos and the town.
 

DRECKONER

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UNITED STATES
Cottonwood Heights police

Cottonwood Heights police force is a very new police department. I believe its only been in operation about 2 or 3 years.
It is more than obvious that Cottonwood Heights recruited for police from outside of Utah.
No native Utahn LEO would have made the comment that he hates Utah gun law.
Just sayin, Utah LEO's are informed about Utah gun laws and like Utah laws. This and this guy aint from Utah and should go back to where he came from.
Probably California.
tj
 

jpm84092

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Cottonwood Heights police force is a very new police department. I believe its only been in operation about 2 or 3 years.
It is more than obvious that Cottonwood Heights recruited for police from outside of Utah.
No native Utahn LEO would have made the comment that he hates Utah gun law.
Just sayin, Utah LEO's are informed about Utah gun laws and like Utah laws. This and this guy aint from Utah and should go back to where he came from.
Probably California.
tj

+1
 

eBratt

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Fort Collins Area, CO
Wow. Unreal. Most good attorneys will do a free consultation for you. They won't give you a ton of time but they'll listen and tell you if you have something worth pursuing. It isn't unheard of for some to file suits for you contingent on getting a portion of the award if they feel confident enough about your suit. Don't assume you can't afford a lawyer. Call one, two, or five and check!
 

GenkiSudo

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Messages
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Murray, ,
Cottonwood Heights police force is a very new police department. I believe its only been in operation about 2 or 3 years.
It is more than obvious that Cottonwood Heights recruited for police from outside of Utah.
No native Utahn LEO would have made the comment that he hates Utah gun law.
Just sayin, Utah LEO's are informed about Utah gun laws and like Utah laws. This and this guy aint from Utah and should go back to where he came from.
Probably California.
tj

Not sure if serious.

Considering there are hundreds of Utahns that apply for hirings at every department in the valley, why would they look out of State to hire? Also Utah officers make far less than the national average....between 10-20k depending where you look for average salary.

There isn't an officer that I know of who is an officer who decided to apply while they were working at a department out of Utah. Then again, I don't know all of their officers.

My sarcasm detector might be on the fritz because it's off the charts with the 'no Utah LEO would make that comment and Utah LEO's are informed of laws'.

I think I'm just getting trolled so I'll move along. :D
 

Utah_Patriot

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More info

Still no word from the OP yet?
At least I was able to confirm the story.

If you're out their and need help with it let me know.
I have been their several times and came out very well.
 

MKEgal

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M-Taliesin said:
open carry in Utah is legal so long as you are two steps away from being able to discharge your weapon. I.E., no round in chamber, gun not cocked. I'd figure being holstered and required to draw the weapon would be a third, but I ain't a lawyer either.
1) retention strap / release button
2) draw
Not that I'd want to try to argue it in court, mind you...
And I'm going to assume you meant to say OC is legal without a permit if (etc.).
With a permit, you folks have some amazingly cool privileges. :cool:
(And those with that black-striped permit have even more. That would have been fun to watch. As someone who's experienced the abuse of power by some LEOs, it makes me chuckle to think about the attitude shift that BCI will create.)

It would appear from your account that Officer Potter did not abide by 77-7-17:
A peace officer who finds a dangerous weapon pursuant to a frisk may take and keep it until the completion of the questioning, at which time he shall either return it if lawfully possessed, or arrest such person.
1) the contact has to be lawful, & this one wasn't
2) there has to be RAS that the person is armed AND dangerous in order to make physical contact, & there wasn't
3) this pistol wasn't found "pursuant to a frisk" - it was in plain sight!
And of course,
4) it was lawfully possessed, yet not returned

(Still curious about what statute "gun time-out" is in...)

Utah_Patriot said:
At least I was able to confirm the story.
That's good. I was beginning to wonder, esp. since the OP hasn't been on OCDO yet in July.
So the problem was real,
BCI is aware of the problem,
and we can hope the OP has found a lawyer who's fond of the 4A.
Maybe the PD will get enough of a chewing-out from BCI that they will very quickly & with great apology return the illegally-seized pistol, then the lawyer can start in.
 
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GenkiSudo

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1) retention strap / release button
2) draw
Not that I'd want to try to argue it in court, mind you...
And I'm going to assume you meant to say OC is legal without a permit if (etc.).
With a permit, you folks have some amazingly cool privileges. :cool:
(And those with that black-striped permit have even more. That would have been fun to watch. As someone who's experienced the abuse of power by some LEOs, it makes me chuckle to think about the attitude shift that BCI will create.)

The law spells it out a bit more than 'two steps away'....specifically.

76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

So I wouldn't advise anyone of trying to pull off 'but it was two steps (actions) away from firing' in court. ;)
 

MKEgal

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PracticalTactical said:
What's a black stripe permit, LEO?
Sort of a LEO... a very specialized sort.
Those are issued to UT residents who are UT BCI cc instructors.
I'm told that seeing a black stripe permit makes for a very quick attitude adjustment on the part of a LEO who seems to need updated training about UT firearms laws. Wish we had something similar in WI.
 

Deepdiver36

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Sort of a LEO... a very specialized sort.
Those are issued to UT residents who are UT BCI cc instructors.
I'm told that seeing a black stripe permit makes for a very quick attitude adjustment on the part of a LEO who seems to need updated training about UT firearms laws. Wish we had something similar in WI.

This is 100% inaccurate. Black stripes are for instructors but no different what so ever to a red card. No special privileges. Please do not post that CFP holders, instructors or otherwise, are LEO's as that is NOT true.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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MKEgal

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The explanation I was given is that since UT BCI is a LEA, & they certify their cc instructors, those instructors are considered a type of LEO.
Certainly not the sort that drive around & try to arrest criminals, no.
And the only superpower they have is that attitude adjustment.
But they do have a phone number to call & report a problem (related to a regular LEO who misunderstands UT law w/r/t firearms, carry, etc.), direct to the investigation division.
This has also been addressed in another thread.
 

Deepdiver36

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The explanation I was given is that since UT BCI is a LEA, & they certify their cc instructors, those instructors are considered a type of LEO.
Certainly not the sort that drive around & try to arrest criminals, no.
And the only superpower they have is that attitude adjustment.
But they do have a phone number to call & report a problem (related to a regular LEO who misunderstands UT law w/r/t firearms, carry, etc.), direct to the investigation division.
This has also been addressed in another thread.

Thanks for the replay. Unfortunately, it appears the explanation you received has not factual. Regardless of BCI’s LEA status, which I generally question if they are defined as one, nothing we have received in our instructor training remotely eludes to the fact we were any type of LEO. A phone number to contact an investigator is nothing special and I am sure you could talk to the same person investigator if you called. They are there to help ensure the integrity of the program and the people within it. So no ‘superpowers’ as you put it.

If the other thread you elude to is the one I am thing of, I commented there as well.
 

Marsupial

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Utah
The explanation I was given is that since UT BCI is a LEA, & they certify their cc instructors, those instructors are considered a type of LEO.
Certainly not the sort that drive around & try to arrest criminals, no.
And the only superpower they have is that attitude adjustment.
But they do have a phone number to call & report a problem (related to a regular LEO who misunderstands UT law w/r/t firearms, carry, etc.), direct to the investigation division.
This has also been addressed in another thread.

I will verify this with the CC instructor, who's gunstore I frequent, and will report back whenever that happens.
 

GenkiSudo

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You folks realize there's code for that definition right?

53-13-103

I won't copy pasta since that's pretty long. You can verify with your CC instructor all you'd like....there are far too many 'instructors' out there who think they know the law since they're an instructor but some of the things that comes out of their mouths is wayyyyyy off the mark.
 

jpm84092

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Some Clarification From A Black Stripe Permit Holder

BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructors (black stripe) are ordinary citizens with no Law Enforcement powers other than those afforded to any other ordinary citizen of Utah or other state. We are trained in the law and often understand concealed carry law in Utah better than "some" LEOs, but we are not employees of BCI or any Law Enforcement Agency (unless that is also that person's day job).

Anyone can AND SHOULD notify BCI of any misinterpretation or misuse of UT Firearms Laws.
 

cdrhoad

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Location
Lehi,Utah
off subject

Ok, so this is off subject. The so called "black stripe permit" is not a permit at all. In fact it is possible to be a Utah CFP instructor but not a Utah CFP holder. It is simply a validation of your training certification to be a CFP instructor.

Any word yet on how the OP's fight is going?
 
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