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Thread: Pickin a Fight about Training!

  1. #1
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Pickin a Fight about Training!

    OK, so that we do not keep stepping on other threads, I am posting this one. I think the point was well made that we need to take this discussion from other threads and put it all on one. Then we can rant about this issue all we want without stepping on other people's threads.

    The hope is that this will consolidate the arguments from several other threads.

    For that reason I will try and pick up with my post that was last on the most recent thread.

    As for the rest of it. It is simple. There is a lot of talk of what it will require to get a permit. And it seems that unless the governor changes something major, any training will get you that permit. What you are not taking into account is what happens if it is your wife or child or anyone else you love that gets taken out by a round from your gun because you thought that you learned enough in that basic pistol course. And if anyone wants to challenge my record, or ability, talk to someone who has taken one of my "Basic" courses that I taught for FREE, I guaranty they will tell you that the minimum will get someone innocent killed. A lack of appropriate training can cost you your life, even if you are an "Instructor".

    The sad truth is that being that we are getting NEW concealed carry laws, we can loose them. No matter what amount of fighting we put up to keep them from going away. We are the ones that have to stand up and PROVE that we are responsible, because we all know the anti gunners will use any tragedy to their advantage. The idea that minimums are OK is a dangerous prospect. It is also not something that we can take lightly, no matter if it is video's, books, courses, or practice, it is our job to make sure that we are the best of the best.

    So if you think the little bit that is being talked about in order to get a permit is enough, just remember, if a missed shot wizzes by a cop or a cops family, then they will treat you like the attacker even if you are defending yourself. And as far as me, I have the training, and I do the practice, and I am constantly researching what needs to be in order to save the lives of the people that I care about, whether that be from me teaching them, or me defending them with my firearm.

    The law can not dish out a penalty that will ever match some of the consequences you create as a result of a bad shot.

    Edit: Just so we are clear, this is the same thing I have been screaming since we started the fight for constitutional carry, and this is the reason I have always offered a FREE open carry course. I have put up at every turn. Including having to design a FREE concealed carry course as a result of the permit system.

    You think I am wrong about any of it, I have two words for you. PROVE IT!
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  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran XD40-OD's Avatar
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    I believe training is extremely important

    Government mandates however, are unconstitutional IMO
    Poor Obama. All this time, he thought he had been placed in charge of the GovernMINT.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Man, I see control issues.

    Just becasue one may start a thread, does not mean you own it. Let me say, I dearly love it when a thread stays on top. But, we are a public community and off topic happens, just like it does with friends sitting aroung a talbe.

    If you really want a thread to stay on topic, stay on it 24/7 and moderate it.

    I can bet you McX, and we love him, would be the first to humorously rain on your parade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40-OD View Post
    I believe training is extremely important

    Government mandates however, are unconstitutional IMO
    If it wasn't for the "Government mandate" that one get training before a permit is issued. The majority on this forum would not even think about getting any training.

    The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".

    Reality is we all need to train. Practice Practice Practice.

    I'll probably get flamed for this statement, but it's the truth.

    I train and train and train. Personaly I shoot 4 to 5 times a month and pray that I will be good enough if and when the time comes.

    JJC

  5. #5
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Man, I see control issues.

    Just becasue one may start a thread, does not mean you own it. Let me say, I dearly love it when a thread stays on top. But, we are a public community and off topic happens, just like it does with friends sitting aroung a talbe.

    If you really want a thread to stay on topic, stay on it 24/7 and moderate it.

    I can bet you McX, and we love him, would be the first to humorously rain on your parade.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svqjijZHQrI

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJC View Post
    If it wasn't for the "Government mandate" that one get training before a permit is issued. The majority on this forum would not even think about getting any training.

    The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".

    Reality is we all need to train. Practice Practice Practice.

    I'll probably get flamed for this statement, but it's the truth.

    I train and train and train. Personaly I shoot 4 to 5 times a month and pray that I will be good enough if and when the time comes.

    JJC
    If it's the "truth," sir, then you will be able to cite specific references that statistically demonstrate your claim. Without those cites, it is simply your opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    If it's the "truth," sir, then you will be able to cite specific references that statistically demonstrate your claim. Without those cites, it is simply your opinion.
    I firmly stand w/JJC on this! I ask you JC to which "opinion" JJC made that you want him to cite? I am asking a specific question.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Practice should have three pillars:

    1. HG handling, cleaning, technical details, carry details, deployment and similar issues;
    2. Safety - technical safety and legal liability;
    3. SA, when to shoot, good shoot bad shoot, how to internalize and functionalize principles of combat pistolcraft how to fight with your HG and how to fight in general. A vulnerable person who has no understanding of how to fight, how to contend with a predator is poorly armed no matter what HG they may have on them. IMO, martial artists who have had force-on-force training are much better equipped to adopt HG (I'll say weapon carry, in general) carry as a force multiplier.

    Have no holes in your system, have a delivery system for training and skill acquisition, realize that skills degrade, as does reaction time when you're not staying 'sharp'. One way to bolster this is to have a partner approach (this has saved many a LEO). Two-against-one is a synergy, and is far more robust than any one training element.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qball54208 View Post
    I firmly stand w/JJC on this! I ask you JC to which "opinion" JJC made that you want him to cite? I am asking a specific question.
    He made the statements:

    If it wasn't for the "Government mandate" that one get training before a permit is issued. The majority on this forum would not even think about getting any training.

    The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".

    and then avowed those statements to be "truth." If there is a study that shows that a majority of people on this forum would not even think about getting any training, or that they have made comments against the need for training, those cites should be readily available.

    Without the cites, it's just his opinion, and one that does not seem to be warranted. The vast majority of members on this site acknowledge the need for training and practice, and, in my opinion, would do so whether or not a particular government entity mandated it.
    Last edited by JamesCanby; 06-30-2011 at 08:26 AM.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran XD40-OD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJC View Post
    If it wasn't for the "Government mandate" that one get training before a permit is issued. The majority on this forum would not even think about getting any training.

    The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".

    Reality is we all need to train. Practice Practice Practice.

    I'll probably get flamed for this statement, but it's the truth.

    I train and train and train. Personaly I shoot 4 to 5 times a month and pray that I will be good enough if and when the time comes.

    JJC
    Personally, I'm a Marine. I don't need no stinking training. it's the other 99.9% of the pop that is the reason I carry
    Poor Obama. All this time, he thought he had been placed in charge of the GovernMINT.

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  11. #11
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40-OD View Post
    Personally, I'm a Marine. I don't need no stinking training. it's the other 99.9% of the pop that is the reason I carry
    Your statement, XD, is counter-intuitive. As a Marine, you have already been well trained in weapons handling and marksmanship, and have practiced your skills more than most. This fact is recognized by virtue of law in many states that stipulate that the provision of a DD-214 is proof of weapons training and satisfies the requirement when applying for a concealed carry permit or other license.

    What the OP averred as 'truth' was that a majority of the members of this forum would not get weapons training if it was not mandated by a government agency, and that's what I take exception to.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Training = Good
    Government Mandates = Bad

    That's how I and a lot of people feel about it.

    Firstly, it's unconstitutional to mandate any prior restraints on an unalienable right; especially one that's actually enumerated in the BoR. If you disagree with that I won't be able to find common ground with you on this issue.

    Secondly, as with all such hyberbole, I can turn around the example given about a wife, child or innocent bystander getting shot quite easily. e.g. What if someone has no permit or training and has need of the firearm to save his/her or someone elses life? You can think of a number of examples. A daughter calls her father from a party to be picked up on the bad side of town, he would like to bring a gun just in case? etc. Should he not be LEGALLY allowed use of said firearm because he hasn't had training? HA!

    Lastly, people aren't as stupid as the anti gunners and statists think. Most of us know enough; without training, what not to do. I've been shooting for years and can hit what I'm aiming at but haven't taken any self defense classes though I do read and understand the law. I know that I would only use my weapon as a last resort and only if I knew I wouldn't hurt anyone that didn't deserve it. Will I get more training? You bet! Should I not be able to open carry because I haven't had what you or the government think is good enough? HA!
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 06-30-2011 at 09:14 AM.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    He made the statements:

    If it wasn't for the "Government mandate" that one get training before a permit is issued. The majority on this forum would not even think about getting any training.

    The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".

    and then avowed those statements to be "truth." If there is a study that shows that a majority of people on this forum would not even think about getting any training, or that they have made comments against the need for training, those cites should be readily available.

    Without the cites, it's just his opinion, and one that does not seem to be warranted. The vast majority of members on this site acknowledge the need for training and practice, and, in my opinion, would do so whether or not a particular government entity mandated it.
    I concur. Lets see some data to back up this big, huge, juicy, negative generalization that deliberately paints us all in a bad light. These two are man enough to stand by this absurd statement then they should be man enough to back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJC View Post
    The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".
    JJC
    For instance, I believe the Officer and Gentleman whom you are quoting has received training in a group (group as in more than one person on this forum) class held by the Utah instructor who is the inspiration for this very thread. Do I have it straight? This is like a soap opera with twists and turns everywhere.

    Money? Meet mouth. My hardliner opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Man, I see control issues.

    Just becasue one may start a thread, does not mean you own it.
    So you are calling MKEgal a man? Jack is responding to HER request by starting this thread and nothing more. Come on people, keep up or buy the Wisconsin as it Turns soap opera guide.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 06-30-2011 at 10:03 AM.
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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JJC
    The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".
    JJC
    I think maybe the proper quote would be "I (we) don't need no stinking PERMITS"...

    Credited to McX as one of his frequent quotes.....

    As I am at work and time is short, I will opt not to search for a link to one of McX's usage of the quote, but there are many....

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 06-30-2011 at 10:52 AM.
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    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    I think maybe the proper quote would be "I (we) don't need no stinking PERMITS"...

    Credited to McX as one of his frequent quotes.....

    As I am at work and time is short, I will opt not to search for a link to one of McX's usage of the quote, but there are many....

    Outdoorsman1
    it is an honor to be quoted, but i fear i may fall from grace:
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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    For starters, I personally don't care if we stay on topic or not, this thread is in response to requests from others asking that we "Stay on topic" in other threads. And I am well aware of the Cheeseburger addiction held by at least one member on this forum.

    Next, the statement "Every Marine is a rifleman" does not mean every Marine can use defensive firearms in a civilian setting. I will not speculate on the additional training that "A Marine" may have had, but I will say that the use of defensive firearms in a military setting is a lot different than carrying a concealed firearm in the civilian setting.

    Next, LEO training does not make you an expert either. Here is another fine example of that.
    http://www.king5.com/news/local/Assa...124666029.html

    And it was a Lieutenant that did it.
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    [snip...]

    Next, the statement "Every Marine is a rifleman" does not mean every Marine can use defensive firearms in a civilian setting. I will not speculate on the additional training that "A Marine" may have had, but I will say that the use of defensive firearms in a military setting is a lot different than carrying a concealed firearm in the civilian setting.
    I cannot find the bolded statement having been made in this topic, although it is often used to describe the primary duty of a Marine. The fact that most if not all states that require training before issuing a permit or license recognize the weapons training of ALL branches by virtue of the fact that all one needs to do is submit a copy of their DD-214 in lieu of a commercial certificate of training. Are you suggesting that a weapons-qualified servicemember or veteran needs to have special training in order to carry a concealed firearm? Can you cite that requirement in the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    Next, LEO training does not make you an expert either. Here is another fine example of that.
    http://www.king5.com/news/local/Assa...124666029.html
    And are you now saying that everyone needs to be qualified as an "expert" in order to keep and bear arms? Can you cite the requirement that a permittee or licensee be a recognized "expert?"

    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    And it was a Lieutenant that did it.
    And his rank is relevant because.....? IIRC, it was an officer that took the AR out of his car and placed it on the trunk of the car that the LT drove away. In truth, I don't see how EITHER one could not have noticed the presence of the AR on the trunk.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    In my hardline opinion.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 06-30-2011 at 01:58 PM. Reason: wrong guy, sorry!
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    I cannot find the bolded statement having been made in this topic, although it is often used to describe the primary duty of a Marine. The fact that most if not all states that require training before issuing a permit or license recognize the weapons training of ALL branches by virtue of the fact that all one needs to do is submit a copy of their DD-214 in lieu of a commercial certificate of training. Are you suggesting that a weapons-qualified servicemember or veteran needs to have special training in order to carry a concealed firearm? Can you cite that requirement in the law?



    And are you now saying that everyone needs to be qualified as an "expert" in order to keep and bear arms? Can you cite the requirement that a permittee or licensee be a recognized "expert?"



    And his rank is relevant because.....? IIRC, it was an officer that took the AR out of his car and placed it on the trunk of the car that the LT drove away. In truth, I don't see how EITHER one could not have noticed the presence of the AR on the trunk.
    I am going to address these in a different order than you put it.

    A: First of all rank has a lot to do with it because it shows that there is a career behind them, not just some rookie. And doing something unsafe with a firearm is doing something unsafe with a firearm. And for all the yapping they do about training, there should not be so many shining examples of foolishness from LEO's, especially not from experienced officers.

    B: I am not citing anything by law, I am citing statements made by many many many many veterans from the korean war to present. Any combat veteran will tell you that the civillian world, and the military world (With the exception of military LEO) are so drastically different, that you have new training that is needed.

    C: I will never say that you need to be an expert, it was an expresssion. Intended to help people understand that the basic courses are enough to get someone out on the range. But they are not enough to make someone skilled enough to be safe with a firearm. With the possible exception of basic defensive courses. Depending what the course covers.


    And thanks for the Cheeseburgers McX, made me have to go out and get one.

    By the way, how are things in VA? I was there teaching about 2 years ago, but I have not had the chance to get back since?
    Last edited by CalicoJack10; 06-30-2011 at 01:59 PM.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 06-30-2011 at 02:12 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  22. #22
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    CalicoJack10 survived that volley with an admirable display of skill and grace under fire. Looks like he is up in the points, but it is still anyone's game.
    In that case let me return fire and go on the offencive.

    I am one of the few instructors available to civillians in the US who has ever even been considered or slotted to teach influential people such as senators and their staff. And while the scheduling and details are still being hammered out for an upcoming course, this is a reality, and much like other people who have doubted me, wait and see. I think that as soon as Walker signs the bill, there will be several people that will come out publicly and let this be known.

    Additionally, I could post video after video of LEO's and morons who have mishaps with firearms after thinking that they didnt need advanced training just to handle them. Much less influince their ability to use a firearm for self defense.

    By the way, I am a vet, and I have taught military firearms courses for a great number of people. And I can tell you from experience, the dynamic of military self defense with a firearm and civillian defense with a firearm are drastically different. Defendng yourself in combat, and defending yourself against an attacker may seem to be the same thing, but they are far more different than they are similar.

    I challenge anyone to PROVE me wrong!
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  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    I challenge anyone to PROVE me wrong!
    You seem to be proving that training doesn't do Jack S.
    What is your position again?
    If your position is that you are for government mandated training then I'll go head to head. See my post above.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 06-30-2011 at 02:37 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran XD40-OD's Avatar
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    CJ, not to sound like an ass, but what is your training that makes you more qualified than a 2nd Bat Marine?

    100% of Marines have 99.9% more pistol training the public.
    Last edited by XD40-OD; 06-30-2011 at 02:44 PM.
    Poor Obama. All this time, he thought he had been placed in charge of the GovernMINT.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40-OD View Post
    CJ, not to sound like an ass, but what is your training that makes you more qualified than a 2nd Bat Marine?

    100% of Marines have 99.9% more pistol training the public.
    NO, they don't. Depending on your MOS, you may never handle a handgun except for boot camp and I know plenty who did not even have that opportunity. Handgun qual is optional unlike rifle qual. We don't need to exaggerate here.

    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    I just have to throw in my $0.02

    Convincing people that all they need is NRA basic pistol is dangerous. It will lead to people who are untrained and dangerous to innocent bystanders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    That is the argument which is used to try and ban Open Carry and Constitutional carry in general. It is a page right out of the WAVE play book nearly verbatim..... If you are carrying for self defense, you are of no danger except to a potential attacker unless you are totally inept. You would not draw to stop a theft or other crime that is absent of an imminent threat to your life. You are not allowed to continue firing if the attacker turns and runs away...etc
    Quote Originally Posted by qball54208 View Post
    DISCLAIMER: If you are not open to ANY form of firearm training, other than DRN or Basic pistol, this fact below will probably PISS YOU OFF!...
    I would attempt to qualify what Calico Jack is trying to illustrate here, IK, you just about hit the nail on the head, but missed the follow through, to further your opinion here.
    Carrying any weapon is dangerous! Yeah, ppl think "I know how to use it" Yeah sure you do, ....Yeah, I got it, there are multiple ways you think you'd react, but with out the proper TRAINING, you and your gun are useless, now you have introduced a weapon of opportunity into the fight one that YOU brought and will likely be used in the furthering of a commission of a SERIOUS crime....."WE" as firearm owners and carriers shoulder a heavy responsibility, with great power comes great responsibility!
    Utilize what tools and people that have the proper professional training available to your advantage instead of slamming them, if YOU had the training and experience that they and I have, you'd understand, so please keep an open mind, it could very well save your life!
    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    Come on now, I always thought you were more intelligent than this. If you really believe this then please explain to me how missed shots due to the attack, and over penetration have no effect on innocent people. It is not about what you draw for, it is about the use of that firearm. It is pretty insulting that you would associate me with wave being that I am one of the people that is offering this kind of training for FREE to make sure that the things that you left out of your statement don't end up killing innocent people.
    I did not associate you with WAVE nor make any accusations to that effect. I simply pointed out that the statement that untrained individuals are a danger to the general public is what WAVE uses in their playbook when they oppose Open Carry and Concealed Carry. It is what the WI Senate and Assembly representatives used to push for more mandatory training. Making that statement on this board a year ago would result in any of several members hounding you until you never wanted to post here again. Most of those members have been banned.
    I am not dismissing everything you have said. I agree that the decision to carry a firearm is a serious one and that you should not do so unless you are prepared to use it. Prepared includes knowledge of the legal ramifications along with an essential level of proficiency. The decision to draw your handgun carries consequences which will change your life forever and often not for the better. I would like to think that people would be honest with themselves when it comes to something so important.
    I believe that most people who understand all of the aspects of their decision to carry will seek training. I do not believe that it should be a requirement for someone to defend themselves. There are plenty of "trained" individuals who are not mentally prepared even after taking advanced training. When the SHTF, they will fail to perform.
    There is a difference between advocating advanced training as a recommendation and saying that anyone without it is more of a hazard to everyone around them and should not be allowed to carry at all. There is a difference between mandatory government mandated training and simply being a responsible firearm owner and being as well educated and trained that you can reasonably be.
    The whole premise of this site is that everyone has a right to carry without government oversight. We all have a God given right to self defense and a firearm is a critical part of the ability to defend yourself. It does not take advanced training to stop an attacker with a firearm in a legitimate and deadly force justified self defense scenario. To make a blanket statement suggesting that anyone without it has a high probability of harming innocents and that highly trained individuals have a low chance of doing so would be to ignore the police involved shootings we read about every day.
    One of the more compelling reasons to encourage advanced training is so that individuals understand the options of response and know just when deadly force is justified. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. We do not have a castle doctrine in WI and unless your life is in imminent danger, you may not draw that firearm. Prison is surely in your future if you draw for any less of a threat so you had better be prepared with other options.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 06-30-2011 at 03:27 PM.

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