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Thread: Please Help...

  1. #1
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    Please Help...

    I have just been notified by the Livonia Police Department that my CPL has been suspended... Here's the story i'm 29 years old and live with my parent's... i'm a member of the NRA and WWCCA in Plymouth... I have been an avid shooter since I was 6 years old and I am very responsible and safe... I see a psychiatrist for mild depression/anxiety/ADHD and am prescribed medication... I had an adverse effect to this medication so my parent's called 911 to take me to E.R. this involved absolutely zero how should i say "drama"... I was needing/willing to go to hospital and not struggling/fighting/yelling or being combative. along with the ambulance, 5 officers showed up and immediately asked my father "where the guns were at?" he was rather put off and disturbed by this... I was quickly helped into the back of an ambulance and taken to the E.R. I have fully recovered and my medication has been changed... I was just notified yesterday that my CPL has been suspended, I'm assuming I just need to go to a hearing to clear it up. I don't even want to wait for their letter to request it in writing... Does anyone know the address I need to mail it to. I'm a strong believer in the 2nd ammendmant and right to carry. My last question is: is it still legal for me to open carry in the meantime while I get this straightened out... any advice would be appreciated... thank you... Michael Edward Robertson...

  2. #2
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Your number one priority right now is to get your ducks in a row, for the Gun Board Meeting. If at all possible get a letter from your doctor, and from your shrink in your favor, stating that your medications are in order. Also pointing out that you are not a danger to yourself or others, and that carrying a firearm concealed will not interfere with your medical issues.

    As for OC'in, it is completely legal to OC, a firearm that is LEGALLY registered to you! Their are many restrictions on OC w/o CPL. READ READ READ, all of the stickies. You should also talk to a lawyer before the meeting, not necessarily take one with you (unless you can afford it), but at least speak with one, so you know what to expect.

    Good luck,
    God Bless,
    Peace be with you and your piece!

    ***IANAL*** (I An NOT A Lawyer)
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

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    God Bless

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the advice. I have spoken to my doctor and will be getting a letter in my favor... Do you or anyone else possibly know any good pro-carry local lawyer's... I live in Livonia...

  4. #4
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aceofspades3ss3 View Post
    Thanks for the advice. I have spoken to my doctor and will be getting a letter in my favor... Do you or anyone else possibly know any good pro-carry local lawyer's... I live in Livonia...
    Well the thing is, in order to be disqualified for a CPL you have to be guilty of the following:

    14. Have not been found guilty but mentally ill of any crime and has not offered a plea of not guilty of, or been acquitted of, any crime by reason of insanity
    15. Have never been subject to an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to a mental illness
    16. Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment
    17. Not be under a court order of legal incapacity in this state or elsewhere
    18. Not be detrimental to the safety of his or her self or any other person if issued a Concealed Pistol License
    and....
    Being under an order requiring involuntary hospitalization or alternative treatment
    It doesnt sound like you have reason to be worried. Your hospital visit was purely voluntary. And last I knew, depression was a treatable disease, unlike some of the other mental illnesses.

    Please keep us posted.

  5. #5
    Regular Member StingMP9's Avatar
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    Is it normal for him to get this suspension letter from a municipal city PD instead of the county Gun Board? Why didn't his notice come from Wayne County?
    "Reason can never be popular. Passions and feelings can become popular, but reason will always remain the sole property of a few eminent individuals."
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    If I read the op story correctly he was actually taken to the ED for an adverse reaction to medication. How can the gun board suspend a persons cpl for this?

    Having a drug allergy is not on the list of disqualifiers.

    I would be angry if it were me.

    I would get a good attorney.

    Foia the Ems run report, everything from the pd and officers involved, the 911 call, dispatch radio traffic etc. How did the officers know u had a cpl?
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 06-30-2011 at 11:35 AM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  7. #7
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    I'm a bit confused about:

    "16. Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment"

    Was 'depression' diagnosed (at the time the application was made) and is 'depression' considered a 'mental illness' (I should think not)?

    The way that sentence reads, it only matters if you had a mental illness in effect at the time the CPL application was made, which (strangely) would seemingly put you in the clear if the mental illnesses was diagnosed later 'after' the application was made (based on that lone sentence - I'm not reading the statute in its entirety).

    I too would really like to know how the police got involved. Either something is fishy with the government checking databases on people for no good reason or the OP (or his parents) volunteered that information.

    FOIAs seem definitely to be in order.

  8. #8
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    I'm a bit confused about:

    "16. Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment"

    Was 'depression' diagnosed (at the time the application was made) and is 'depression' considered a 'mental illness' (I should think not)?

    The way that sentence reads, it only matters if you had a mental illness in effect at the time the CPL application was made, which (strangely) would seemingly put you in the clear if the mental illnesses was diagnosed later 'after' the application was made (based on that lone sentence - I'm not reading the statute in its entirety).

    I too would really like to know how the police got involved. Either something is fishy with the government checking databases on people for no good reason or the OP (or his parents) volunteered that information.

    FOIAs seem definitely to be in order.
    This case may help you:
    http://mi.findacase.com/research/wfr...2200.MI.htm/qx

    What I would focus on is that you have had the cpl for some time and have not been dangerous. Additionally, I would bring the statement from your doctor and any other notarized statement saying that you have been an upstanding citizen and have not violated any of the cpl provisions. Yes, depression could be a "mental illness", but a necessary part of a diagnosis would require that your depression would be to such a degree that it significantly impacts your daily activities. Any documentation regarding your ability to function in society ... records that you are gainfully employed, participate in community activities, etc. would be most helpful.
    I would also state that the case I linked to reiterates that the board has an extreme burden to prove that you are unfit for a cpl. The case states that a preponderance of the evidence is not enough, they must prove it to a much higher level.
    The downside is that your cpl is suspended until such time as the hearing is held... an abrogation of your right to carry. I question the legitimacy of this is that, at least in my interpretation, there are very few reasons to suspend it pending the hearing; why not let you carry until the hearing is held? But, it is what it is.
    BTW, if money were no object, I see that Jim Simmons was the attorney in the case above; I would give him a call. Perhaps one of our members here can give you his contact information.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    PD involvement

    Anything said between you, your family and the medical crew that was in earshot of the officers seems to be fair game for the Police to document. However, I see of no way, short of a court order for them to gather medical records from EMS or Hospital regarding your condition. Hospitals and "hopefully" EMS crews are very careful of HIIPA violations, the penalties are huge....

    I've been in the fire service for 25 years, and a medic for about 22 years. An adverse effect from medication is just that, and not a reflection on who you are.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I would also state that the case I linked to reiterates that the board has an extreme burden to prove that you are unfit for a cpl. The case states that a preponderance of the evidence is not enough, they must prove it to a much higher level.
    The problem is that Michigan has one of the worst shall-issue laws in the United States, Connecticut even has a stronger law (case law incorporated into the actual law).

    Many gun boards abuse the CPL law, it is common in Wayne County for a CPL to be suspended under the dangerous clause. Wayne County will give you a form to have a doctor fill out then in "a few months" they will reinstate your CPL.

    Even though you legally have the right to appeal to court and have the losing side pay your legal fees, the gun board (especially Wayne County) knows that most people don't do this so they play games with you.

    This is a side effect of Michigan having the worst shall-issue law out of any shall-issue state.
    Many of us tried for legislation to drastically improve things here, even with all the republicans who were swept into office and all the tea party garbage.... all we have is garbage and we can't even repeal our KKK created registration system.

    Michigan does not respect your rights and unfortunately, it will take lots of litigation to fix things that the legislature will not touch.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    wow, if these are all the facts, it sounds like a really messed up situation. were the police called out by the 911 operator based on a resident of the household being a CPL holder? if so, i wonder if there were any violations or misuse of the LEIN?
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  12. #12
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    AS was said, read the stickies, and stick around here. Lots of good info, good people, and good conversation. Follow through with this, and persue whatever, wherever anyone has violated your rights.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Call a good CPL knowledgeable attorney now! This is the newest game and GOD forbid anyone getting a Medical Marijuana card. They are going after your CPL's through the back door now with Ricky Snyder and Billy Schutte who I have disgust for, they are in my opinion worse than anyone knows. Seriously do not handle this without good sound legal advice.


    Quote Originally Posted by aceofspades3ss3 View Post
    I have just been notified by the Livonia Police Department that my CPL has been suspended... Here's the story i'm 29 years old and live with my parent's... i'm a member of the NRA and WWCCA in Plymouth... I have been an avid shooter since I was 6 years old and I am very responsible and safe... I see a psychiatrist for mild depression/anxiety/ADHD and am prescribed medication... I had an adverse effect to this medication so my parent's called 911 to take me to E.R. this involved absolutely zero how should i say "drama"... I was needing/willing to go to hospital and not struggling/fighting/yelling or being combative. along with the ambulance, 5 officers showed up and immediately asked my father "where the guns were at?" he was rather put off and disturbed by this... I was quickly helped into the back of an ambulance and taken to the E.R. I have fully recovered and my medication has been changed... I was just notified yesterday that my CPL has been suspended, I'm assuming I just need to go to a hearing to clear it up. I don't even want to wait for their letter to request it in writing... Does anyone know the address I need to mail it to. I'm a strong believer in the 2nd ammendmant and right to carry. My last question is: is it still legal for me to open carry in the meantime while I get this straightened out... any advice would be appreciated... thank you... Michael Edward Robertson...
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    The Morons on my Gun board said my instructor was not qualified. They had a problem because I called the MCOLES division and the guy they said was unqualified was the guy who decides whether their own cops are qualified, yes my instructor was their MCOLES instructor, talk about egg all over their face....


    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    The problem is that Michigan has one of the worst shall-issue laws in the United States, Connecticut even has a stronger law (case law incorporated into the actual law).

    Many gun boards abuse the CPL law, it is common in Wayne County for a CPL to be suspended under the dangerous clause. Wayne County will give you a form to have a doctor fill out then in "a few months" they will reinstate your CPL.

    Even though you legally have the right to appeal to court and have the losing side pay your legal fees, the gun board (especially Wayne County) knows that most people don't do this so they play games with you.

    This is a side effect of Michigan having the worst shall-issue law out of any shall-issue state.
    Many of us tried for legislation to drastically improve things here, even with all the republicans who were swept into office and all the tea party garbage.... all we have is garbage and we can't even repeal our KKK created registration system.

    Michigan does not respect your rights and unfortunately, it will take lots of litigation to fix things that the legislature will not touch.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  15. #15
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    Dean Greenblatt Atty. 1 248 644 7520

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    If you were to pursue the "inappropriate use of LEIN", the police would probably argue that they needed to know if there were firearms in the house... you know, the whole "officer safety" argument. The problem is that any judge would most likely agree.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Michigun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    If you were to pursue the "inappropriate use of LEIN", the police would probably argue that they needed to know if there were firearms in the house... you know, the whole "officer safety" argument. The problem is that any judge would most likely agree.
    I know around this area the police have their own department intranet sort of database that all the surrounding cities share. Any run-in with someone or report on someone, cpl registrations are all in that database. they can access it without the associated legalities required by lein.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by StingMP9 View Post
    Is it normal for him to get this suspension letter from a municipal city PD instead of the county Gun Board? Why didn't his notice come from Wayne County?
    I haven't even received a notice yet. An officer from LPD called my dad's cell phone, sying my CPL has been suspended. Nobody has called me personally and I have not received any letter's yet.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Well the thing is, in order to be disqualified for a CPL you have to be guilty of the following:



    and....


    It doesnt sound like you have reason to be worried. Your hospital visit was purely voluntary. And last I knew, depression was a treatable disease, unlike some of the other mental illnesses.

    Please keep us posted.
    Thank's for that. I will keep posting update's. Mike.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    If I read the op story correctly he was actually taken to the ED for an adverse reaction to medication. How can the gun board suspend a persons cpl for this?

    Having a drug allergy is not on the list of disqualifiers.

    I would be angry if it were me.

    I would get a good attorney.

    Foia the Ems run report, everything from the pd and officers involved, the 911 call, dispatch radio traffic etc. How did the officers know u had a cpl?
    Livonia police are uptight and have nothing better to do. It's not uncommon for me to see 3+ cars on a routine traffic stop. And they check their computer's to see who has guns. They can tell. I've seen it happen to a friend of mine who was playing his drums and got a noise complaint. First thing they asked him was where his handgun was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    AS was said, read the stickies, and stick around here. Lots of good info, good people, and good conversation. Follow through with this, and persue whatever, wherever anyone has violated your rights.
    thank you...

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Call a good CPL knowledgeable attorney now! This is the newest game and GOD forbid anyone getting a Medical Marijuana card. They are going after your CPL's through the back door now with Ricky Snyder and Billy Schutte who I have disgust for, they are in my opinion worse than anyone knows. Seriously do not handle this without good sound legal advice.
    I'm definately not walking in their without a lawyer. And again if anyone knows a good pro carry/NRA/2nd ammendmant lawyer I would appreciate it. thanks. Mike.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Dean Greenblatt Atty. 1 248 644 7520
    Thank you kindly Mr. 1911. My favorite gun by the way. Adios. Mike.

  24. #24
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Something tells me there is more to this story. Police do not come to EMS runs?

    "normally"

  25. #25
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    Yes they do.

    If you have not gotten a letter from the gun board, you still have a CPL. A cops phone call isnt going to do it.

    Do you have any friends on the force? You could ask one of them to "run your ID", that would tell you immediately if you were suspended.

    Youre welcome. Dean is a great guy, he has helped me out a couple times, so I try to pay him back with some word of mouth. He's sharp as a tack when it comes to gun laws.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 07-05-2011 at 10:28 PM.

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