Please Help...

I have just been notified by the Livonia Police Department that my CPL has been suspended... Here's the story i'm 29 years old and live with my parent's... i'm a member of the NRA and WWCCA in Plymouth... I have been an avid shooter since I was 6 years old and I am very responsible and safe... I see a psychiatrist for mild depression/anxiety/ADHD and am prescribed medication... I had an adverse effect to this medication so my parent's called 911 to take me to E.R. this involved absolutely zero how should i say "drama"... I was needing/willing to go to hospital and not struggling/fighting/yelling or being combative. along with the ambulance, 5 officers showed up and immediately asked my father "where the guns were at?" he was rather put off and disturbed by this... I was quickly helped into the back of an ambulance and taken to the E.R. I have fully recovered and my medication has been changed... I was just notified yesterday that my CPL has been suspended, I'm assuming I just need to go to a hearing to clear it up. I don't even want to wait for their letter to request it in writing... Does anyone know the address I need to mail it to. I'm a strong believer in the 2nd ammendmant and right to carry. My last question is: is it still legal for me to open carry in the meantime while I get this straightened out... any advice would be appreciated... thank you... Michael Edward Robertson...

Your number one priority right now is to get your ducks in a row, for the Gun Board Meeting. If at all possible get a letter from your doctor, and from your shrink in your favor, stating that your medications are in order. Also pointing out that you are not a danger to yourself or others, and that carrying a firearm concealed will not interfere with your medical issues.

As for OC'in, it is completely legal to OC, a firearm that is LEGALLY registered to you! Their are many restrictions on OC w/o CPL. READ READ READ, all of the stickies. You should also talk to a lawyer before the meeting, not necessarily take one with you (unless you can afford it), but at least speak with one, so you know what to expect.

Good luck,
God Bless,
Peace be with you and your piece!

***IANAL*** (I An NOT A Lawyer)

Thanks for the advice. I have spoken to my doctor and will be getting a letter in my favor... Do you or anyone else possibly know any good pro-carry local lawyer's... I live in Livonia...

aceofspades3ss3 said:

Thanks for the advice. I have spoken to my doctor and will be getting a letter in my favor... Do you or anyone else possibly know any good pro-carry local lawyer's... I live in Livonia...

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Well the thing is, in order to be disqualified for a CPL you have to be guilty of the following:

14. Have not been found guilty but mentally ill of any crime and has not offered a plea of not guilty of, or been acquitted of, any crime by reason of insanity
15. Have never been subject to an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to a mental illness
16. Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment
17. Not be under a court order of legal incapacity in this state or elsewhere
18. Not be detrimental to the safety of his or her self or any other person if issued a Concealed Pistol License

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and....

Being under an order requiring involuntary hospitalization or alternative treatment

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It doesnt sound like you have reason to be worried. Your hospital visit was purely voluntary. And last I knew, depression was a treatable disease, unlike some of the other mental illnesses.

Please keep us posted.

Is it normal for him to get this suspension letter from a municipal city PD instead of the county Gun Board? Why didn't his notice come from Wayne County?

If I read the op story correctly he was actually taken to the ED for an adverse reaction to medication. How can the gun board suspend a persons cpl for this?

Having a drug allergy is not on the list of disqualifiers.

I would be angry if it were me.

I would get a good attorney.

Foia the Ems run report, everything from the pd and officers involved, the 911 call, dispatch radio traffic etc. How did the officers know u had a cpl?

I'm a bit confused about:

"16. Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment"

Was 'depression' diagnosed (at the time the application was made) and is 'depression' considered a 'mental illness' (I should think not)?

The way that sentence reads, it only matters if you had a mental illness in effect at the time the CPL application was made, which (strangely) would seemingly put you in the clear if the mental illnesses was diagnosed later 'after' the application was made (based on that lone sentence - I'm not reading the statute in its entirety).

I too would really like to know how the police got involved. Either something is fishy with the government checking databases on people for no good reason or the OP (or his parents) volunteered that information.

FOIAs seem definitely to be in order.

OC4me said:

I'm a bit confused about:

"16. Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment"

Was 'depression' diagnosed (at the time the application was made) and is 'depression' considered a 'mental illness' (I should think not)?

The way that sentence reads, it only matters if you had a mental illness in effect at the time the CPL application was made, which (strangely) would seemingly put you in the clear if the mental illnesses was diagnosed later 'after' the application was made (based on that lone sentence - I'm not reading the statute in its entirety).

I too would really like to know how the police got involved. Either something is fishy with the government checking databases on people for no good reason or the OP (or his parents) volunteered that information.

FOIAs seem definitely to be in order.

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This case may help you:
http://mi.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.\MI\2005\20050920_0002200.MI.htm/qx

What I would focus on is that you have had the cpl for some time and have not been dangerous. Additionally, I would bring the statement from your doctor and any other notarized statement saying that you have been an upstanding citizen and have not violated any of the cpl provisions. Yes, depression could be a "mental illness", but a necessary part of a diagnosis would require that your depression would be to such a degree that it significantly impacts your daily activities. Any documentation regarding your ability to function in society ... records that you are gainfully employed, participate in community activities, etc. would be most helpful.
I would also state that the case I linked to reiterates that the board has an extreme burden to prove that you are unfit for a cpl. The case states that a preponderance of the evidence is not enough, they must prove it to a much higher level.
The downside is that your cpl is suspended until such time as the hearing is held... an abrogation of your right to carry. I question the legitimacy of this is that, at least in my interpretation, there are very few reasons to suspend it pending the hearing; why not let you carry until the hearing is held? But, it is what it is.
BTW, if money were no object, I see that Jim Simmons was the attorney in the case above; I would give him a call. Perhaps one of our members here can give you his contact information.

PD involvement

Anything said between you, your family and the medical crew that was in earshot of the officers seems to be fair game for the Police to document. However, I see of no way, short of a court order for them to gather medical records from EMS or Hospital regarding your condition. Hospitals and "hopefully" EMS crews are very careful of HIIPA violations, the penalties are huge....

I've been in the fire service for 25 years, and a medic for about 22 years. An adverse effect from medication is just that, and not a reflection on who you are.....

DrTodd said:

I would also state that the case I linked to reiterates that the board has an extreme burden to prove that you are unfit for a cpl. The case states that a preponderance of the evidence is not enough, they must prove it to a much higher level.

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The problem is that Michigan has one of the worst shall-issue laws in the United States, Connecticut even has a stronger law (case law incorporated into the actual law).

Many gun boards abuse the CPL law, it is common in Wayne County for a CPL to be suspended under the dangerous clause. Wayne County will give you a form to have a doctor fill out then in "a few months" they will reinstate your CPL.

Even though you legally have the right to appeal to court and have the losing side pay your legal fees, the gun board (especially Wayne County) knows that most people don't do this so they play games with you.

This is a side effect of Michigan having the worst shall-issue law out of any shall-issue state.
Many of us tried for legislation to drastically improve things here, even with all the republicans who were swept into office and all the tea party garbage.... all we have is garbage and we can't even repeal our KKK created registration system.

Michigan does not respect your rights and unfortunately, it will take lots of litigation to fix things that the legislature will not touch.

wow, if these are all the facts, it sounds like a really messed up situation. were the police called out by the 911 operator based on a resident of the household being a CPL holder? if so, i wonder if there were any violations or misuse of the LEIN?

AS was said, read the stickies, and stick around here. Lots of good info, good people, and good conversation. Follow through with this, and persue whatever, wherever anyone has violated your rights.

Call a good CPL knowledgeable attorney now! This is the newest game and GOD forbid anyone getting a Medical Marijuana card. They are going after your CPL's through the back door now with Ricky Snyder and Billy Schutte who I have disgust for, they are in my opinion worse than anyone knows. Seriously do not handle this without good sound legal advice.

aceofspades3ss3 said:

I have just been notified by the Livonia Police Department that my CPL has been suspended... Here's the story i'm 29 years old and live with my parent's... i'm a member of the NRA and WWCCA in Plymouth... I have been an avid shooter since I was 6 years old and I am very responsible and safe... I see a psychiatrist for mild depression/anxiety/ADHD and am prescribed medication... I had an adverse effect to this medication so my parent's called 911 to take me to E.R. this involved absolutely zero how should i say "drama"... I was needing/willing to go to hospital and not struggling/fighting/yelling or being combative. along with the ambulance, 5 officers showed up and immediately asked my father "where the guns were at?" he was rather put off and disturbed by this... I was quickly helped into the back of an ambulance and taken to the E.R. I have fully recovered and my medication has been changed... I was just notified yesterday that my CPL has been suspended, I'm assuming I just need to go to a hearing to clear it up. I don't even want to wait for their letter to request it in writing... Does anyone know the address I need to mail it to. I'm a strong believer in the 2nd ammendmant and right to carry. My last question is: is it still legal for me to open carry in the meantime while I get this straightened out... any advice would be appreciated... thank you... Michael Edward Robertson...

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The Morons on my Gun board said my instructor was not qualified. They had a problem because I called the MCOLES division and the guy they said was unqualified was the guy who decides whether their own cops are qualified, yes my instructor was their MCOLES instructor, talk about egg all over their face....

Jared said:

The problem is that Michigan has one of the worst shall-issue laws in the United States, Connecticut even has a stronger law (case law incorporated into the actual law).

Many gun boards abuse the CPL law, it is common in Wayne County for a CPL to be suspended under the dangerous clause. Wayne County will give you a form to have a doctor fill out then in "a few months" they will reinstate your CPL.

Even though you legally have the right to appeal to court and have the losing side pay your legal fees, the gun board (especially Wayne County) knows that most people don't do this so they play games with you.

This is a side effect of Michigan having the worst shall-issue law out of any shall-issue state.
Many of us tried for legislation to drastically improve things here, even with all the republicans who were swept into office and all the tea party garbage.... all we have is garbage and we can't even repeal our KKK created registration system.

Michigan does not respect your rights and unfortunately, it will take lots of litigation to fix things that the legislature will not touch.

Click to expand...

Dean Greenblatt Atty. 1 248 644 7520

If you were to pursue the "inappropriate use of LEIN", the police would probably argue that they needed to know if there were firearms in the house... you know, the whole "officer safety" argument. The problem is that any judge would most likely agree.

DrTodd said:

If you were to pursue the "inappropriate use of LEIN", the police would probably argue that they needed to know if there were firearms in the house... you know, the whole "officer safety" argument. The problem is that any judge would most likely agree.

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I know around this area the police have their own department intranet sort of database that all the surrounding cities share. Any run-in with someone or report on someone, cpl registrations are all in that database. they can access it without the associated legalities required by lein.

StingMP9 said:

Is it normal for him to get this suspension letter from a municipal city PD instead of the county Gun Board? Why didn't his notice come from Wayne County?

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I haven't even received a notice yet. An officer from LPD called my dad's cell phone, sying my CPL has been suspended. Nobody has called me personally and I have not received any letter's yet.

Tucker6900 said:

Well the thing is, in order to be disqualified for a CPL you have to be guilty of the following:



and....


It doesnt sound like you have reason to be worried. Your hospital visit was purely voluntary. And last I knew, depression was a treatable disease, unlike some of the other mental illnesses.

Please keep us posted.

Click to expand...

Thank's for that. I will keep posting update's. Mike.

lapeer20m said:

If I read the op story correctly he was actually taken to the ED for an adverse reaction to medication. How can the gun board suspend a persons cpl for this?

Having a drug allergy is not on the list of disqualifiers.

I would be angry if it were me.

I would get a good attorney.

Foia the Ems run report, everything from the pd and officers involved, the 911 call, dispatch radio traffic etc. How did the officers know u had a cpl?

Click to expand...

Livonia police are uptight and have nothing better to do. It's not uncommon for me to see 3+ cars on a routine traffic stop. And they check their computer's to see who has guns. They can tell. I've seen it happen to a friend of mine who was playing his drums and got a noise complaint. First thing they asked him was where his handgun was.