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Thread: I'm confused, What happends when Walker signs SB93?

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    I'm confused, What happends when Walker signs SB93?

    I mean I know that we will have to wait till November earliest to get our permits, that part I get. Which got me wondering, does the same rule apply to the rest of the bill aswell? Namely, the ability to conceal on one's own property...etc. Do we have to wait till Nov for that or what's the deal there? Thanks in advance, as I'm in the dark when it comes to all that legal jargin lol!

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GUNderson View Post
    I mean I know that we will have to wait till November earliest to get our permits, that part I get. Which got me wondering, does the same rule apply to the rest of the bill aswell? Namely, the ability to conceal on one's own property...etc. Do we have to wait till Nov for that or what's the deal there? Thanks in advance, as I'm in the dark when it comes to all that legal jargin lol!
    Howdy Amigo!
    First of all, never accept legal advice from folks on a forum as gospel, including any I may suggest. Check the laws for yourself to be certain of your postion. First I'll touch on the laws I was able to view and toward the end, will ask a few questions that you might consider.

    First, let's look at the language of your state Constitution:

    Article I, Section 24
    The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

    The simple meaning here is that citizens have the right to have a weapon. Note, however, it says nothing about concealed carry there. However, it appears open carry is generally permissible.

    Washington State follows British legal tradition, which states that anything that is not proscribed as unlawful is lawful.

    Now let's check a specific law that states what limitations you have on carry:

    RCW 9.41.050
    Carrying firearms.

    (1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

    Since your property is at the place of your abode, it appears that you can carry concealed on your own property. If you leave your property, you'd need a concealed carry license.

    Now the questions.
    If you are on your own property, and you actually are carrying CONCEALED, how would anybody know? In order for a police officer to approach you regarding a weapon, they'd need to know it is there. If it is concealed, nobody is going to know that to be the case. There won't be a MWAG call to the cop shop. The only person who will know you have a gun is you. The police are very unlikely to show up at your home and search for a weapon unless you have other issues, such as an outstanding warrant. Why would police be there to learn you are armed if it is concealed and nobody knows about it?

    The problem I have is that the question "can I carry concealed on my own property" just doesn't make sense? Who is to prevent it? The police would need some reason to come onto your property, and if that isn't likely, what's the problem?

    Meanwhile, you can certainly open carry without expectation of trouble on your own property, and you don't need a license to open carry.

    But again, as I said at the outset, do not depend on a forum such as this for legal advice. You'll get opinions, frequently good ones, but I've seen some that weren't all that shiny.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    I'm so confused... This is the Wisconsin sub forum... Why are we talking about Washington? And article 1 sec 24? Confused...
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GUNderson View Post
    I mean I know that we will have to wait till November earliest to get our permits, that part I get. Which got me wondering, does the same rule apply to the rest of the bill aswell? Namely, the ability to conceal on one's own property...etc. Do we have to wait till Nov for that or what's the deal there? Thanks in advance, as I'm in the dark when it comes to all that legal jargin lol!
    You can carry concealed on your own property now, as well as your own business, or if you have permission from the owner.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    You can carry concealed on your own property now, as well as your own business, or if you have permission from the owner.
    You may get a pass in your home, but not so much "on your property"...
    The concealed weapons statute is a restriction on the manner in which firearms are
    possessed and used. It is constitutional under Art. I, s. 25.
    Only if the public benefit
    in the exercise of the police power is substantially outweighed by an individual’s need
    to conceal a weapon in the exercise of the right to bear arms will an otherwise valid
    restriction on that right be unconstitutional, as applied. The right to keep and bear
    arms for security, as a general matter, must permit a person to possess, carry, and
    sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of a private residence or privately
    operated business,
    and to safely move and store weapons within those premises.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 07-01-2011 at 10:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    You can carry concealed on your own property now, as well as your own business, or if you have permission from the owner.


    Can anyone cite a legal referance to this? And also, I believe that Knight said that property was excluded from this aswell. Which still, I believe that current bill SB93 has an ammendment that states one could go armed concealed, if they were on their own property, or property they leased. So the unanswered question remains, would this go into effect on the 8th once signed into law, or do we have to wait untill November 1st to exersize this right?

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    You may get a pass in your home, but not so much "on your property"...
    You are right. For some reason I thought property was included.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GUNderson View Post


    Can anyone cite a legal referance to this? And also, I believe that Knight said that property was excluded from this aswell. Which still, I believe that current bill SB93 has an ammendment that states one could go armed concealed, if they were on their own property, or property they leased. So the unanswered question remains, would this go into effect on the 8th once signed into law, or do we have to wait untill November 1st to exersize this right?
    The answer is that as of now (pre-SB93) you are only de facto permitted to concealed carry in your house or place of business by the constitution and case law surrounding 941.23 (read the annotations to 941.23). Specifically State v. Hamdan. You are in no way statutorily protected. Ergo, you may still technically be cited for it. Most likely never charged however. IANAL

    I don't know anywhere that it says you can concealed carry with permission from an owner on anothers property though.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 07-01-2011 at 12:59 PM.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    I'm confused, What happends when Walker signs SB93?

    I'm confused, What happends when Walker signs SB93?


    "I feel a great tranquility in the Force, er... I mean Wisco. As if . 0000000000063 millions of whining voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

    My hardline Jedi opinion.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    I'm confused, What happends when Walker signs SB93?


    "I feel a great tranquility in the Force, er... I mean Wisco. As if . 0000000000063 millions of whining voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

    My hardline Jedi opinion.
    LOL

    I'd add hoplophobic in front of terror.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GUNderson
    I mean I know that we will have to wait till November earliest to get our permits, that part I get. Which got me wondering, does the same rule apply to the rest of the bill as well?
    If you look at the PDF of the bill (link in my sig), the very last thing in the bill
    (last page, bottom of the right-hand column), it lists what parts go into effect when.
    All you have to do is look up whatever number they're talking about (within the PDF) to see the subject. There's a search feature at the top of the PDF to help with that.

    The day after it's published, no form of carry by itself is grounds for a DC charge.
    By 2mo out, DOJ has to have forms & permits designed & start accepting applications.
    (I think this also applies to the special LEO ID, but not sure.)
    On the 1st day of the 4th month (01NOV) the rest of the bill is in force.

    But as has been said many times in many threads, don't take my word for it.
    Read it yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    I'm confused, What happends when Walker signs SB93?


    "I feel a great tranquility in the Force, er... I mean Wisco. As if . 0000000000063 millions of whining voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

    My hardline Jedi opinion.

    Ahhhhhhhh...... JEDI......

    Outdoorsman1Kenobi....
    aka... OD1Kenobi
    May the Farce Be WIth you....
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    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    What about OC in a vehicle? Will that go into affect right away or in four months?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    What about OC in a vehicle? Will that go into affect right away or in four months?
    That's pretty much what I've been asking, aside from the fact that I'm asking about CC'n on ones own property and not OC. Eitherway, Me and you have still not gotten our questions answered. Seems that waaay too many people are too willing to turn this forum into a laughing stock with jokes via Star Wars: Episode IV-A new hope: Circa 1977...and yes, I get the referance,the original trilogy is awsum, and the jokes are funny. But all and all, my question still remains, can I or can I not CC on my property after the
    8th when the bill is signed?

    and yes, The force is deffinitly with this one Obi-wan, and yes, Anakin is my real father, and yes, thousands of lives were suddenly silenced on Alderon and there was a great distubance in the force, I get it...

    ETA: For 20+ more points, what does the Imperial term AT-AT walker stand for?

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    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    I missed the star warsbjokes, but ill say All Terrain Armored Transport (no google fu)

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    Cool We are an equal-opportunity forum....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GUNderson View Post
    That's pretty much what I've been asking, aside from the fact that I'm asking about CC'n on ones own property and not OC. Eitherway, Me and you have still not gotten our questions answered....
    Well gentlemen, the Lord helps those who help themselves; so if there is no clear-cut answer to your questions, perhaps you'd like to contribute to our group instead of just feeding off of it. Do the same things one of us would do to find out the answer:

    • Read and unpack the language of the bill and its accompanying information. (see MKEgal's signature for links to those)
    • Ask your state lawmakers. (use the Google if you don't know who they are)
    • Ask the author of the bill. (I'll give you this one, Pam Galloway)
    • Report back and let us know with proper citations what answer you found out.

    We are an equal-opportunity forum....
    Dave
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Well gentlemen, the Lord helps those who help themselves; so if there is no clear-cut answer to your questions, perhaps you'd like to contribute to our group instead of just feeding off of it. Do the same things one of us would do to find out the answer:

    • Read and unpack the language of the bill and its accompanying information. (see MKEgal's signature for links to those)
    • Ask your state lawmakers. (use the Google if you don't know who they are)
    • Ask the author of the bill. (I'll give you this one, Pam Galloway)
    • Report back and let us know with proper citations what answer you found out.

    We are an equal-opportunity forum....
    Who are my reps? Go here:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...epresentatives
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4]Well gentlemen, the Lord helps those who help themselves; so if there is no clear-cut answer to your questions, perhaps you'd like to contribute to our group instead of just feeding off of it.
    Really? I prescribe one chill pill to be taken twice daily. Also, don't say things like "Well Gentlemen" when you know you're targeting an individual, were all grown ups here. Well at least some of us are. See I can do it too

    And to the man who said "All Terrain Armored Transport", you win the game by 20 points!

    ETA- I called my local PD this morning, and the officer I talked to said that I'd be cited and or possibly arrested if I CC'd anywhere, as the law states (941.23 I believe is where he reffered me to)
    To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
    s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
    2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden


    He was kind a DB about the whole thing, but I believe this is where one stands whilst CC'n in their own house as of now. Aye's ,Naye's,what do you guys think?
    Last edited by Mr. GUNderson; 07-02-2011 at 12:24 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GUNderson View Post
    Really? I prescribe one chill pill to be taken twice daily. Also, don't say things like "Well Gentlemen" when you know you're targeting an individual, were all grown ups here. Well at least some of us are. See I can do it too

    And to the man who said "All Terrain Armored Transport", you win the game by 20 points!

    ETA- I called my local PD this morning, and the officer I talked to said that I'd be cited and or possibly arrested if I CC'd anywhere, as the law states (941.23 I believe is where he reffered me to)
    To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
    s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
    2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden


    He was kind a DB about the whole thing, but I believe this is where one stands whilst CC'n in their own house as of now. Aye's ,Naye's,what do you guys think?
    Rule 1) Don't talk to police.
    Rule 2) See rule 1.

    Seriously though, police do not interpret the law, they are to enforce it.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GUNderson View Post
    That's pretty much what I've been asking, aside from the fact that I'm asking about CC'n on ones own property and not OC. Eitherway, Me and you have still not gotten our questions answered. Seems that waaay too many people are too willing to turn this forum into a laughing stock with jokes via Star Wars: Episode IV-A new hope: Circa 1977...and yes, I get the referance,the original trilogy is awsum, and the jokes are funny. But all and all, my question still remains, can I or can I not CC on my property after the
    8th when the bill is signed?

    and yes, The force is deffinitly with this one Obi-wan, and yes, Anakin is my real father, and yes, thousands of lives were suddenly silenced on Alderon and there was a great distubance in the force, I get it...

    ETA: For 20+ more points, what does the Imperial term AT-AT walker stand for?
    Anyhow, to answer your question, the only part of the law that has any effect on carrying that goes into affect the day after it's published is the disorderly conduct part. Basically, it puts into law what the memo from Attorney General JB Van Hollen said that simply open carrying a weapon is NOT disorderly conduct.

    The rest of the law takes effect 11/1/11.

    As for cc on your property, today, the law as written says you cannot conceal ANYWHERE! That being said, there is case law that carves out exceptions. The exceptions are INSIDE your house and INSIDE your owned business. So, if you work for someone else, no cc.

    The new law puts that case law into real law and adds cc on YOUR property, the home or business, without a permit.

    Better?

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GUNderson View Post
    Really? I prescribe one chill pill to be taken twice daily. Also, don't say things like "Well Gentlemen" when you know you're targeting an individual, were all grown ups here. Well at least some of us are. See I can do it too

    ....
    Actually, I was writing to both you and Tyguy, but I guess you missed that in your haste to construct a snappy comeback.... I'm done.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Actually, I was writing to both you and Tyguy, but I guess you missed that in your haste to construct a snappy comeback.... I'm done.
    Actually you mite be rite about that now. I should've assesed the post more clearly before engaging with my comback. Clear evidence that we need some kind of a permit and training system in place to post things .

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. GUNderson View Post
    Actually you mite be rite about that now. I should've assesed the post more clearly before engaging with my comback. Clear evidence that we need some kind of a permit and training system in place to post things .
    Or at least a heavier spring on the "Enter" key.... Maybe we should start over.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

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    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Actually, I was writing to both you and Tyguy, but I guess you missed that in your haste to construct a snappy comeback.... I'm done.
    What the heck did i do? I asked one simple questin. I never gave you, or anyone else a hard time.

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    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    What about OC in a vehicle? Will that go into affect right away or in four months?
    Thats is all i said. You could have told me to go read the bill, which i have onxe already, but instead you attack me for no good reason. As far as unpacking the bill, i am not a lawyer. I thought perhaps someone knew and could tell me, but perhaps asking questions offends you? Ok crap, i just asked a question!

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