I'm confused, What happends when Walker signs SB93?

Mr. GUNderson · Jul 1, 2011

I mean I know that we will have to wait till November earliest to get our permits, that part I get. Which got me wondering, does the same rule apply to the rest of the bill aswell? Namely, the ability to conceal on one's own property...etc. Do we have to wait till Nov for that or what's the deal there? Thanks in advance, as I'm in the dark when it comes to all that legal jargin lol!

M-Taliesin · Jul 1, 2011

Mr. GUNderson said:
I mean I know that we will have to wait till November earliest to get our permits, that part I get. Which got me wondering, does the same rule apply to the rest of the bill aswell? Namely, the ability to conceal on one's own property...etc. Do we have to wait till Nov for that or what's the deal there? Thanks in advance, as I'm in the dark when it comes to all that legal jargin lol!

Howdy Amigo!
First of all, never accept legal advice from folks on a forum as gospel, including any I may suggest. Check the laws for yourself to be certain of your postion. First I'll touch on the laws I was able to view and toward the end, will ask a few questions that you might consider.

First, let's look at the language of your state Constitution:

Article I, Section 24
The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

The simple meaning here is that citizens have the right to have a weapon. Note, however, it says nothing about concealed carry there. However, it appears open carry is generally permissible.

Washington State follows British legal tradition, which states that anything that is not proscribed as unlawful is lawful.

Now let's check a specific law that states what limitations you have on carry:

RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.

(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

Since your property is at the place of your abode, it appears that you can carry concealed on your own property. If you leave your property, you'd need a concealed carry license.

Now the questions.
If you are on your own property, and you actually are carrying CONCEALED, how would anybody know? In order for a police officer to approach you regarding a weapon, they'd need to know it is there. If it is concealed, nobody is going to know that to be the case. There won't be a MWAG call to the cop shop. The only person who will know you have a gun is you. The police are very unlikely to show up at your home and search for a weapon unless you have other issues, such as an outstanding warrant. Why would police be there to learn you are armed if it is concealed and nobody knows about it?

The problem I have is that the question "can I carry concealed on my own property" just doesn't make sense? Who is to prevent it? The police would need some reason to come onto your property, and if that isn't likely, what's the problem?

Meanwhile, you can certainly open carry without expectation of trouble on your own property, and you don't need a license to open carry.

But again, as I said at the outset, do not depend on a forum such as this for legal advice. You'll get opinions, frequently good ones, but I've seen some that weren't all that shiny.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

Mlutz · Jul 1, 2011

I'm so confused... This is the Wisconsin sub forum... Why are we talking about Washington? And article 1 sec 24? Confused...

protias · Jul 1, 2011

Mr. GUNderson said:
I mean I know that we will have to wait till November earliest to get our permits, that part I get. Which got me wondering, does the same rule apply to the rest of the bill aswell? Namely, the ability to conceal on one's own property...etc. Do we have to wait till Nov for that or what's the deal there? Thanks in advance, as I'm in the dark when it comes to all that legal jargin lol!

You can carry concealed on your own property now, as well as your own business, or if you have permission from the owner.

Interceptor_Knight · Jul 1, 2011

protias said:
You can carry concealed on your own property now, as well as your own business, or if you have permission from the owner.

You may get a pass in your home, but not so much "on your property"...

The concealed weapons statute is a restriction on the manner in which firearms are
possessed and used. It is constitutional under Art. I, s. 25. Only if the public benefit
in the exercise of the police power is substantially outweighed by an individual’s need
to conceal a weapon in the exercise of the right to bear arms will an otherwise valid
restriction on that right be unconstitutional, as applied. The right to keep and bear
arms for security, as a general matter, must permit a person to possess, carry, and
sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of a private residence or privately
operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within those premises.

Mr. GUNderson · Jul 1, 2011

protias said:

You can carry concealed on your own property now, as well as your own business, or if you have permission from the owner.

Click to expand...

Can anyone cite a legal referance to this? And also, I believe that Knight said that property was excluded from this aswell. Which still, I believe that current bill SB93 has an ammendment that states one could go armed concealed, if they were on their own property, or property they leased. So the unanswered question remains, would this go into effect on the 8th once signed into law, or do we have to wait untill November 1st to exersize this right?

protias · Jul 1, 2011

Interceptor_Knight said:
You may get a pass in your home, but not so much "on your property"...

You are right. For some reason I thought property was included.

Brass Magnet · Jul 1, 2011

Mr. GUNderson said:
Can anyone cite a legal referance to this? And also, I believe that Knight said that property was excluded from this aswell. Which still, I believe that current bill SB93 has an ammendment that states one could go armed concealed, if they were on their own property, or property they leased. So the unanswered question remains, would this go into effect on the 8th once signed into law, or do we have to wait untill November 1st to exersize this right?

The answer is that as of now (pre-SB93) you are only de facto permitted to concealed carry in your house or place of business by the constitution and case law surrounding 941.23 (read the annotations to 941.23). Specifically State v. Hamdan. You are in no way statutorily protected. Ergo, you may still technically be cited for it. Most likely never charged however. IANAL

I don't know anywhere that it says you can concealed carry with permission from an owner on anothers property though.

HandyHamlet · Jul 1, 2011

I'm confused, What happends when Walker signs SB93?

"I feel a great tranquility in the Force, er... I mean Wisco. As if . 0000000000063 millions of whining voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

My hardline Jedi opinion.

Brass Magnet · Jul 1, 2011

HandyHamlet said:
I'm confused, What happends when Walker signs SB93?

"I feel a great tranquility in the Force, er... I mean Wisco. As if . 0000000000063 millions of whining voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

My hardline Jedi opinion.

LOL :lol:

I'd add hoplophobic in front of terror.

MKEgal · Jul 1, 2011

Mr. GUNderson said:
I mean I know that we will have to wait till November earliest to get our permits, that part I get. Which got me wondering, does the same rule apply to the rest of the bill as well?

If you look at the PDF of the bill (link in my sig), the very last thing in the bill
(last page, bottom of the right-hand column), it lists what parts go into effect when.
All you have to do is look up whatever number they're talking about (within the PDF) to see the subject. There's a search feature at the top of the PDF to help with that.

The day after it's published, no form of carry by itself is grounds for a DC charge. :banana:
By 2mo out, DOJ has to have forms & permits designed & start accepting applications.
(I think this also applies to the special LEO ID, but not sure.)
On the 1st day of the 4th month (01NOV) the rest of the bill is in force.

But as has been said many times in many threads, don't take my word for it.
Read it yourself.

Outdoorsman1 · Jul 1, 2011

HandyHamlet said:
I'm confused, What happends when Walker signs SB93?

"I feel a great tranquility in the Force, er... I mean Wisco. As if . 0000000000063 millions of whining voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

My hardline Jedi opinion.

Ahhhhhhhh...... JEDI......

Outdoorsman1Kenobi....
aka... OD1Kenobi
May the Farce Be WIth you....

TyGuy · Jul 2, 2011

What about OC in a vehicle? Will that go into affect right away or in four months?

Mr. GUNderson · Jul 2, 2011

TyGuy said:
What about OC in a vehicle? Will that go into affect right away or in four months?

That's pretty much what I've been asking, aside from the fact that I'm asking about CC'n on ones own property and not OC. Eitherway, Me and you have still not gotten our questions answered. Seems that waaay too many people are too willing to turn this forum into a laughing stock with jokes via Star Wars: Episode IV-A new hope: Circa 1977...and yes, I get the referance,the original trilogy is awsum, and the jokes are funny. But all and all, my question still remains, can I or can I not CC on my property after the
8th when the bill is signed?

and yes, The force is deffinitly with this one Obi-wan, and yes, Anakin is my real father, and yes, thousands of lives were suddenly silenced on Alderon and there was a great distubance in the force, I get it...

ETA: For 20+ more points, what does the Imperial term AT-AT walker stand for?

TyGuy · Jul 2, 2011

I missed the star warsbjokes, but ill say All Terrain Armored Transport (no google fu)

davegran · Jul 2, 2011

We are an equal-opportunity forum....

Mr. GUNderson said:
That's pretty much what I've been asking, aside from the fact that I'm asking about CC'n on ones own property and not OC. Eitherway, Me and you have still not gotten our questions answered....

Well gentlemen, the Lord helps those who help themselves; so if there is no clear-cut answer to your questions, perhaps you'd like to contribute to our group instead of just feeding off of it. Do the same things one of us would do to find out the answer:

Read and unpack the language of the bill and its accompanying information. (see MKEgal's signature for links to those)
Ask your state lawmakers. (use the Google if you don't know who they are)
Ask the author of the bill. (I'll give you this one, Pam Galloway)
Report back and let us know with proper citations what answer you found out.

We are an equal-opportunity forum....

protias · Jul 2, 2011

davegran said:
Well gentlemen, the Lord helps those who help themselves; so if there is no clear-cut answer to your questions, perhaps you'd like to contribute to our group instead of just feeding off of it. Do the same things one of us would do to find out the answer:

Read and unpack the language of the bill and its accompanying information. (see MKEgal's signature for links to those)

Ask your state lawmakers. (use the Google if you don't know who they are)

Ask the author of the bill. (I'll give you this one, Pam Galloway)

Report back and let us know with proper citations what answer you found out.

We are an equal-opportunity forum....

Who are my reps? Go here:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?86488-How-to-Contact-Your-Representatives

Mr. GUNderson · Jul 2, 2011

davegran said:
Well gentlemen, the Lord helps those who help themselves; so if there is no clear-cut answer to your questions, perhaps you'd like to contribute to our group instead of just feeding off of it.

Really? I prescribe one chill pill to be taken twice daily. Also, don't say things like "Well Gentlemen" when you know you're targeting an individual, were all grown ups here. Well at least some of us are. See I can do it too

And to the man who said "All Terrain Armored Transport", you win the game by 20 points!

ETA- I called my local PD this morning, and the officer I talked to said that I'd be cited and or possibly arrested if I CC'd anywhere, as the law states (941.23 I believe is where he reffered me to)
To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden

He was kind a DB about the whole thing, but I believe this is where one stands whilst CC'n in their own house as of now. Aye's ,Naye's,what do you guys think?

protias · Jul 2, 2011

Mr. GUNderson said:
Really? I prescribe one chill pill to be taken twice daily. Also, don't say things like "Well Gentlemen" when you know you're targeting an individual, were all grown ups here. Well at least some of us are. See I can do it too

And to the man who said "All Terrain Armored Transport", you win the game by 20 points!

ETA- I called my local PD this morning, and the officer I talked to said that I'd be cited and or possibly arrested if I CC'd anywhere, as the law states (941.23 I believe is where he reffered me to)
To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden

He was kind a DB about the whole thing, but I believe this is where one stands whilst CC'n in their own house as of now. Aye's ,Naye's,what do you guys think?

Rule 1) Don't talk to police.
Rule 2) See rule 1.

Seriously though, police do not interpret the law, they are to enforce it.

paul@paul-fisher.com · Jul 2, 2011

Mr. GUNderson said:
That's pretty much what I've been asking, aside from the fact that I'm asking about CC'n on ones own property and not OC. Eitherway, Me and you have still not gotten our questions answered. Seems that waaay too many people are too willing to turn this forum into a laughing stock with jokes via Star Wars: Episode IV-A new hope: Circa 1977...and yes, I get the referance,the original trilogy is awsum, and the jokes are funny. But all and all, my question still remains, can I or can I not CC on my property after the
8th when the bill is signed?

and yes, The force is deffinitly with this one Obi-wan, and yes, Anakin is my real father, and yes, thousands of lives were suddenly silenced on Alderon and there was a great distubance in the force, I get it...

ETA: For 20+ more points, what does the Imperial term AT-AT walker stand for?

Anyhow, to answer your question, the only part of the law that has any effect on carrying that goes into affect the day after it's published is the disorderly conduct part. Basically, it puts into law what the memo from Attorney General JB Van Hollen said that simply open carrying a weapon is NOT disorderly conduct.

The rest of the law takes effect 11/1/11.

As for cc on your property, today, the law as written says you cannot conceal ANYWHERE! That being said, there is case law that carves out exceptions. The exceptions are INSIDE your house and INSIDE your owned business. So, if you work for someone else, no cc.

The new law puts that case law into real law and adds cc on YOUR property, the home or business, without a permit.

Better?

I'm confused, What happends when Walker signs SB93?

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