Forsyth County Deputy wanted to disarm me in my own yard

Fallschirjmäger · Jul 2, 2011

UPDATED Forsyth County Deputy demands to disarm me in my yard

I have a poured cement driveway constructed in such a manner that there is a pad for parking built parallel to the county road. This afternoon, someone who was attending a function at an unknown neighbors decided that my pad made an absolutely lovely place to park his Mercedes.
I called FCSO and requested a deputy to mediate the situation but it didn't go well.
As Deputy See arrived, I was stripping some metal, I looked up and told him I'd be right back, I had to wash off a chemical burn from my hand.
"Leave the weapon inside, Sir!"
When I went back out, Deputy See was barricaded behind his unit with his weapon drawn. "Keep your hands up! Don't touch the weapon!" He advanced from behind cover, "I thought I told you to leave it inside."
I just looked at him and smiled.

After about five minutes of him giving orders to take my pistol inside, and me not doing it, we finally got around to the nature of the call, and interspersed with what I thought were rather nervous movements, backing away, and more hiding behind the trunk of his car.
As we were conversing and I was getting the idea that the conversation was goin' south, I asked him for his business card. From his barricaded position he started filling it out. I don't think he appreciated when I whistled for his attention and reminded him that he was looking down and instead should be looking at me since I had the gun.

In the end, he said that the car that was on the cement pad was "legally parked on the road" and said there was nothing he could do. However, my car which was parked at the curb was "double parked."
"So, you're not going to do anything about it then?"
"No, sir, I am not."
"Well, you can go ahead and get off my property then, I don't need you."
That didn't go over very well and he went in to the "Officer safety" spiel and how dangerous his job was.
"Dude, you've got like the 14th or 15th most dangerous job. Taxi drivers, and 7-11 clerks have more dangerous jobs."
He went on about how dangerous it was and I asked him the last time he got shot at.
"I was in the Army, I was a Ranger. I'm retired."
"1/508th, 82nd Airborne Division, also retired. How ya doin', sparky?" I guess his memory wasn't too sharp as I hadn't asked for his curriculum vitae.

I didn't really appreciate being treated like the enemy, and it was more than a little kinda worrisome to be faced with someone who's visibly shaking with fear, his eyes big as saucers.

I guess an ORA is in the cards for Tuesday, and this time I hope they give me more than just the incident report. If they try that, I'll see what escalation steps I'll have to take.

File images from earlier in the year.

If that's part of the road...then am I littering?? :mrgreen:

ixtow · Jul 3, 2011

This is cute.

Your property is the road and anyone can park there. Then he wants to harass you instead, point a gun, make demands he has no authority to make...

Sometimes it's better not to call them. They're such a pain.

thebigsd · Jul 3, 2011

Well I guess that police interaction didn't go the way you wanted it to. Seems like a complete over-teaction on the part of the Sheriff's Deputy. Let us know how your request for records goes. How you considered putting up some private property or private parking signs to deter people from parking there. It might give you a little more teeth when you do have to call the Sheriff's Office again.

fjpro2a · Jul 3, 2011

Good Reaction

I say this more times than I can remember, but I am always impressed at how you guys keep "cool" under law enforcement encounters. I can only wish that I would be half as effective if something like that were to happen to me. Good answers, good responses, and good questions. Please let us know how things work out.

Gunslinger · Jul 3, 2011

Someone pointing a gun at me on my property would have his day in court. When did he put his gun away? I assume you will be taking legal action.

MKEgal · Jul 3, 2011

thebigsd said:
...a complete over-reaction on the part of the Sheriff's Deputy.
How you considered putting up some private property or private parking signs

+1 to both.
Will be interesting to follow this through your discussions w/ the Chief, city attorney, etc.
Threatening your life when you'd done nothing wrong? :cuss:

mark-in-texas · Jul 3, 2011

Next time call a tow truck instead!

aadvark · Jul 5, 2011

Fallschirmjäger:

If I were You..., I would go Directly to Ted Praxtons' Office and Report This Deputy.

The Information for doing This is Availiable here: http://www.forsythsheriff.org/infor...mmendation-a-complaint-procedure-mainmenu-167

aadvark

Fallschirjmäger · Jul 5, 2011

Update 05 JUL 11
Went up to Cumming this morning around 1100 and stopped by what I thought was the correct Sheriff's Office. I asked if I could set up an appointment with a supervisor for Deputy See. I was told that he worked out of the South Precinct on Ronald Reagan. Not wanting to make more trips than necessary I stopped at the Tribble Gap location to make an ORA and had short chat with SGT Frampton.
He related something I was unaware of .... When you submit an ORA request at 'dispatch' it only returns the information that 'dispatch' has, and dispatch is a more of a separate entity to the Sheriff's Office than anything else. If I wanted copies of the CAD, or anything else, SGT Frampton said the ORA should go to the County Manager. I was told CPT Freeman was in a meeting and I left my cellphone number to be called.

Around 1500 I was in the area and stopped by South Precinct to see if I could make an appointment later in the week to meet with the Captain. (Guessing that I hadn't been called back because he wanted to speak with his Deputy first before being blindsided by a complaining citizen.) Instead of having to set up a meeting, I was told CPT Freeman was available and would I care to meet with him immediately.

I must say the meeting was every bit as cordial, smooth and professional as expected, based on previous interaction with FCSO. CPT Freeman seemed to be very interested in the actions of his deputy and thought there might indeed be a bit of a training issue as I was completely within my rights and the law. We agreed that a bit of refresher training should be scheduled at the earliest date. We had a disagreement about Open Carry, but agreed that 98-degrees and 110% humidity made it a touch uncomfortable.

In regards to the parking issue, CPT Freeman hadn't personally seen my parking space, but basing his opinion on my description, he seemed pretty adamant that anyone parking on the cement pad was illegally parked. [Paraphrasing here...]"If any of my deputies said that it wasn't to me, I'd ask them what about if I get a few cars and park in their yard? I don't think they'd be too happy about that."

He said that also would be brought up at the next meeting and said he hoped it wouldn't happen again. "We'll find out Labor Day or whatever the next holiday is" I said. He went to give me his business card and I said I already had it, "Oh, this one will have my cell phone number on it. If you have any problems with a deputy about your parking space, give SGT W. LT M. or myself a call."

AAR - I'm very satisfied with the response from the Sheriff's Office, and an on a bit of an emotional high upon learning that an experienced officer agrees with my assessment that my cement pad is part of my yard for my parking and not a public parking space. "County right of way, is so that the county can install electrical, gas, water, etc., it's not an invitation for people to park in your yard."

ccwinstructor · Jul 6, 2011

What is the legal right of way in Georgia?

Fallschirmjäger said:
Update 05 JUL 11
Went up to Cumming this morning around 1100 and stopped by what I thought was the correct Sheriff's Office. I asked if I could set up an appointment with a supervisor for Deputy See. I was told that he worked out of the South Precinct on Ronald Reagan. Not wanting to make more trips than necessary I stopped at the Tribble Gap location to make an ORA and had short chat with SGT Frampton.
He related something I was unaware of .... When you submit an ORA request at 'dispatch' it only returns the information that 'dispatch' has, and dispatch is a more of a separate entity to the Sheriff's Office than anything else. If I wanted copies of the CAD, or anything else, SGT Frampton said the ORA should go to the County Manager. I was told CPT Freeman was in a meeting and I left my cellphone number to be called.

Around 1500 I was in the area and stopped by South Precinct to see if I could make an appointment later in the week to meet with the Captain. (Guessing that I hadn't been called back because he wanted to speak with his Deputy first before being blindsided by a complaining citizen.) Instead of having to set up a meeting, I was told CPT Freeman was available and would I care to meet with him immediately.

I must say the meeting was every bit as cordial, smooth and professional as expected, based on previous interaction with FCSO. CPT Freeman seemed to be very interested in the actions of his deputy and thought there might indeed be a bit of a training issue as I was completely within my rights and the law. We agreed that a bit of refresher training should be scheduled at the earliest date. We had a disagreement about Open Carry, but agreed that 98-degrees and 110% humidity made it a touch uncomfortable.

In regards to the parking issue, CPT Freeman hadn't personally seen my parking space, but basing his opinion on my description, he seemed pretty adamant that anyone parking on the cement pad was illegally parked. [Paraphrasing here...]"If any of my deputies said that it wasn't to me, I'd ask them what about if I get a few cars and park in their yard? I don't think they'd be too happy about that."

He said that also would be brought up at the next meeting and said he hoped it wouldn't happen again. "We'll find out Labor Day or whatever the next holiday is" I said. He went to give me his business card and I said I already had it, "Oh, this one will have my cell phone number on it. If you have any problems with a deputy about your parking space, give SGT W. LT M. or myself a call."

AAR - I'm very satisfied with the response from the Sheriff's Office, and an on a bit of an emotional high upon learning that an experienced officer agrees with my assessment that my cement pad is part of my yard for my parking and not a public parking space. "County right of way, is so that the county can install electrical, gas, water, etc., it's not an invitation for people to park in your yard."

From your description, I would have thought you had a case about the parking, but after seeing the pictures, I am not so sure. I do not know the law on right of way in Georgia, but in the states that I am familiar with, the right of way is defined as so many feet from the centerline, and it usually extends a considerable distance beyond the edge of the pavement.

In the areas where I am familiar (Wisconsin and Arizona), in most cases, the cement pad pictured would be on the government right of way and would be legal for anyone to park on.

ixtow · Jul 6, 2011

The disagreeing on OC bit is not optimal... Especially for an OC forum... But he didn't seem to get hung up on it.

DWCook · Jul 6, 2011

It is always enjoyable knowing that the more experience officers of the laws can be on your side about certain situations. I personally think from what you wrote on your first post that the "Deputy" was acting bit off from how he should have been acting.

Fallschirjmäger · Jul 6, 2011

ccwinstructor said:
From your description, I would have thought you had a case about the parking, but after seeing the pictures, I am not so sure. I do not know the law on right of way in Georgia, but in the states that I am familiar with, the right of way is defined as so many feet from the centerline, and it usually extends a considerable distance beyond the edge of the pavement.

In the areas where I am familiar (Wisconsin and Arizona), in most cases, the cement pad pictured would be on the government right of way and would be legal for anyone to park on.

Let's try a thought exercise and see what the results are.
Let's imagine that you've built a driveway from your house out to the road. Some portion of that driveway is no doubt within the limits of the county right-of-way. Is it legal for someone to block you from the use of your driveway?

Now, let's imagine that instead of an arrow straight path directly from your house to the nearest paved road, your driveway widens at the intersection with the street (as most driveways seem to do these days). Is it legal for someone to park in your driveway just because it's wider?

Thirdly, let's imagine that instead of a perpendicular connection or a slightly wider intersection with the road, that your driveway parallels the road for a distance. Does it matter that the driveway is separated from the pavement or not so long as that parallel portion is still within the county right-of-way?

OCGA § 40-6-203

(a) Except when necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic, or in compliance with law or the directions of a police officer or official traffic-control device, no person shall:
(2) Stand or park a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except momentarily to pick up or discharge a passenger or passengers:
(A) In front of a public or private driveway.

If it's illegal to place tiny, flimsy political signs, garage sale signs or lost cat signs on the county right-of-way, why is it perfectly okay to park a hulking, hard to see through car there?

ccwinstructor · Jul 6, 2011

Driveway parralell and adjoining the road is no longer a driveway

FallschirmjÃ¤ger said:
Let's try a thought exercise and see what the results are.
Let's imagine that you've built a driveway from your house out to the road. Some portion of that driveway is no doubt within the limits of the county right-of-way. Is it legal for someone to block you from the use of your driveway?

Now, let's imagine that instead of an arrow straight path directly from your house to the nearest paved road, your driveway widens at the intersection with the street (as most driveways seem to do these days). Is it legal for someone to park in your driveway just because it's wider?

Thirdly, let's imagine that instead of a perpendicular connection or a slightly wider intersection with the road, that your driveway parallels the road for a distance. Does it matter that the driveway is separated from the pavement or not so long as that parallel portion is still within the county right-of-way?

OCGA § 40-6-203

(a) Except when necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic, or in compliance with law or the directions of a police officer or official traffic-control device, no person shall:
(2) Stand or park a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except momentarily to pick up or discharge a passenger or passengers:
(A) In front of a public or private driveway.

If it's illegal to place tiny, flimsy political signs, garage sale signs or lost cat signs on the county right-of-way, why is it perfectly okay to park a hulking, hard to see through car there?

If you park there, and it does not block your driveway, then someone else parking there does not block your driveway either.

Prohibitions on signs are usually a separate ordinance from prohibitions on parking, as they are created for different purposes. As I do not know Georgia law, this is mere speculation on my part.

Fallschirjmäger · Jul 6, 2011

ccwinstructor said:
If you park there, and it does not block your driveway, then someone else parking there does not block your driveway either.
Prohibitions on signs are usually a separate ordinance from prohibitions on parking, as they are created for different purposes. As I do not know Georgia law, this is mere speculation on my part.

I can understand speculating on the laws of another state. I also tend to attach little importance to speculation.
Were I to comment on Aridzona law, I'd have researched it so as to have an informed opinion.... but that's just me.

I can park my car at the very entrance of my driveway (not just in front of, mind you, but actually inside) and be perfectly safe from any "blocking a driveway" charge. If you were to do the exact same thing and prevent me from the free and unrestricted use of that driveway, you would be in the wrong.

77zach · Jul 10, 2011

Why is it we call the police for the most trivial of things? Personally, I don't want to have any interaction with that sanctified caste. I'll call them if I have to shoot somebody and that's about it.

ixtow · Jul 12, 2011

77zach said:
Why is it we call the police for the most trivial of things? Personally, I don't want to have any interaction with that sanctified caste. I'll call them if I have to shoot somebody and that's about it.

Because handling things yourself steals their thunder, and their vengeful sights will be turned on you.

Fallschirjmäger · Jul 12, 2011

77zach said:
Why is it we call the police for the most trivial of things? Personally, I don't want to have any interaction with that sanctified caste. I'll call them if I have to shoot somebody and that's about it.

Thank you, Zach, and just how would you have 'handled the situation?
Ask politely of the young man (which I did) and have him say 'no'?

Have the car towed?
Flatten his tires?
Put a banana in his tailpipe?

ixtow · Jul 12, 2011

Fallschirmjäger said:
Thank you, Zach, and just how would you have 'handled the situation?
Ask politely of the young man (which I did) and have him say 'no'?

Have the car towed?
Flatten his tires?
Put a banana in his tailpipe?

Sure looked like a steep hill. If the driver put it in neutral and forgot the parking brake...

stuckinchico · Jul 12, 2011

Homemade thermite gernade to hood, through the block, then let him call the tow truck just a suggestion, since it is on your property, he must have been giving it to you as a gift

Forsyth County Deputy wanted to disarm me in my own yard

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