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Thread: Subway Thug

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Subway Thug

    I had an interesting experience with an "Urban American" at a Downtown Subway. I've had a few days to reflect on it.

    The individual referenced in the title literally was wearing his pants around his knees. He had on 2 different pairs of boxer shorts, fully exposed. But his attire is not what I took issue with. I describe only to note that there is a reason for the stereotype.

    It was his boldness in approaching the counter, pushing two patrons out of the way, and placing his order while pointing his index finger only inches away from the face of the Employee making the sandwiches. The place was crowded, the line wound and doubled back more than once. Really, pushing people out of the way to cut in line? Lets not pretend. A Subway restaurant filled with sissy white college students all trembling in terror of what was going to happen next. He was getting his desired ego trip, so what WOULD he do next?

    So... What do I do? Nothing? Speak up? In a situation such as this, I'm more than willing to kick somebody's ass, but I do my best to avoid it getting there.

    He looked around seemingly sizing everyone up. He quickly realized that I was the only person in the building who wasn't afraid to look him in the eye. This guy was looking for people to intimidate as the thoughts above went through my head. Sh!t, now I've made eye contact. It's some kind of macho staring contest. Oh, how I abhor people who can't pull their head out of their hormones. If I let it go, will that be the end of it? Or will that prove no one in the place will step up? I'm not very good at reading behaviors of people like that. It makes no sense to me. I adopted the premise that if one acts like an animal, I should respond like one or something bad might happen.

    I decided to take the quasi-passive approach. I was wearing the very same shirt and pants seen in my avatar. I brushed the bottom flap of my shirt out of the way as I turned my body, as if to break eye contact and let it slide like all the other people who were afraid of him. This fully exposed my 1911. It's very hard to miss.

    Said crass individual left. :-/

    Nobody spoke. Not to me, not to each other; aside from filling orders. It was a kind of awkward angsty cluelessness. Humans really live like this... Anyway, nobody ran away. Apparently nobody called 911, either, as I stood in line patiently and then proceeded to eat there. Probably 40+ minutes in total. Only 20 blocks from the PD, response time cannot be that abysmal, right? Even on foot, that's 2 minutes per block...

    Too much?
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Testing out the "brief" exposure clause, are we? Lol. Good deal though.

    I'll pass on commenting on the stereotype thing, it is what it is, and it does indeed exist for a reason-if none other than some folks going out of their way to live up to it..

    The eye-contact thing. That alone can be plenty effective. A lesson I learned when I moved to NYC many yrs back. I noticed all the NY'ers had this aversion to eye-contact, and observed a lot of folk's reactions to "thugs" and hooligans on trains, the street etc..(politely translated as cowering candyasses..)
    So, I adopted an opposite approach. Every single time I got onto a train or subway car, I went out of my way to make eye contact with every single person on that car-all the more so, the wannabe gangstas and "thugs". Even the most "bad ass" wannabe punk quickly departed the train at the next stop-every, single, time.

  3. #3
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    I'd say you handled it quite well. People like him suck. Widespread open carry would make for a somewhat more polite and peaceful society. It would suppress bad behavior. To bad we don't have the option in the supposed "gun shine" state.

    I briefly openly carried at seminole feed yesterday (less than 2 minutes, to help the guy put hay in the back of truck), no issues or comments.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  4. #4
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    I had an interesting experience with an "Urban American" at a Downtown Subway. I've had a few days to reflect on it.

    [snip]

    Too much?
    Nicely done. My impression is that open carry (or, in this case, briefly exposed CC) is still rare enough that everyone just *assumes* that a carrier must be a LEO. To wit, how many times in contacts by strangers, their first comment/question is, "Are you a cop?" or words to that effect...

    IMO, there is nothing wrong with their assumption, especially if it creates a response on the part of a "thug" as it did in this situation.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    I felt the situation was escalating. The guy was clearly testing how far he could go. I didn't know if that would satisfy him, or he would try something 'more' if he found none who would stand up. I'm still second-guessing it.

    As unlikely as it would seem with so many eyeballs in the place, I think his were the only eyes on me. It is possible that nobody else noticed what I did.

    I wasn't rude. I didn't make any threats. I didn't say a word... Imagine how much better everyone's day would have been had this been prevented by simply OCing.

    Or, considering the minds of those present, would it have been 6 of one, half-dozen the other? "OMG MWAG!!"

    It ended well, so I guess I made the right call, or at least a right call.
    Last edited by ixtow; 07-03-2011 at 03:35 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Well played.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    The first thing that came across my mind when I saw the title to this thread was where the F@#* is there an underground train in Gainesville?
    I owned a liquor store in the Hood for 17 years and have seen this same intimidation trick tried often there.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Mas49.56's Avatar
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    Sounds like a good example of FL BOC. The only thing I would have done different would be to smile wide for the surveillance cameras, so they couldn't say I was displaying "in an angry or threatening manner".

  9. #9
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    All those people in line and you were the only one with a piece? With the amount of CCWs in FL, I would think the dirtbag would take that into account. Here, I would have casually tucked my shirt behind my holster so he could admire the Rosewood grips on my SIG 1911, but then, we have OC except in Denver. Hopefully you will get it soon, OC in a situation like that and the scum of society may turn over a new leaf.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    While morally, I think this story sounds great. Legally, it seems like a slippery slope, though. The act of consciously exposing your gun to someone could be construed as an assault with a deadly weapon, I do believe. It sucks, but that doesn't mean that had he run to a nearby cop, you wouldn't have gone to jail for it.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wetworx View Post
    While morally, I think this story sounds great. Legally, it seems like a slippery slope, though. The act of consciously exposing your gun to someone could be construed as an assault with a deadly weapon, I do believe. It sucks, but that doesn't mean that had he run to a nearby cop, you wouldn't have gone to jail for it.
    I think you may be incorrect about that. My car MAY be used as a deadly weapon in an assault, should I try to hit you with it. It isn't considered assault with a deadly weapon just because I lean against it or pop the hood to show off the factory turbocharger.

    Carrying a hammer MAY be considered assault with a deadly weapon, but I don't think anyone's going to get a conviction because there's one in the hammer holder on my carpenter's belt. I bet I could even carry one in my hands right past an officer and he wouldn't give it more than a second glance.

    Were it assault with a deadly weapon, then is it the same for an officer in Florida to do the same 'exposing'? If not, why not? Please cite the State Code applicable.

    IAW Florida Statute 784.021, (btw, there is no 'assault with a deadly weapon, it's 'aggravated assault') - - there can be no charge unless an assault takes place. An "Assault," as defined by Florida law, is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to another person, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear that violence is imminent.

    An example of an Assault would be walking up to a person in a bar, and raising your hand as though to karate chop the victim in the nose, and causing him to believe you were about to do violence unto him. You don't need to actually touch them; you just need to scare them to have committed an Assault. Merely having hands on the ends of your arms is not sufficient to meet the definition of assault.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 07-06-2011 at 10:55 PM.

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    All those people in line and you were the only one with a piece? With the amount of CCWs in FL, I would think the dirtbag would take that into account. Here, I would have casually tucked my shirt behind my holster so he could admire the Rosewood grips on my SIG 1911, but then, we have OC except in Denver. Hopefully you will get it soon, OC in a situation like that and the scum of society may turn over a new leaf.
    It's a college town, a bunch of 18-22 year old student types. Even if they were so inclined to carry a weapon, they're not allowed to coming to and from campus... Most of this town's crime happens on campus, or within a few blocks of it to a person coming or going... Easy targets.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  13. #13
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    It's a college town, a bunch of 18-22 year old student types. Even if they were so inclined to carry a weapon, they're not allowed to coming to and from campus... Most of this town's crime happens on campus, or within a few blocks of it to a person coming or going... Easy targets.
    All the more reason to push of campus carry nationwide!!!!!

    My campus has NO crime.....but the thing don't tell you is that's because campus is ONLY the buildings. Step out the door and you're on a city street. They don't include crimes committed "off campus" in their campus crime stats.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by We-the-People View Post
    All the more reason to push of campus carry nationwide!!!!!

    My campus has NO crime.....but the thing don't tell you is that's because campus is ONLY the buildings. Step out the door and you're on a city street. They don't include crimes committed "off campus" in their campus crime stats.
    I get email alerts and articles about gun rights. This point is almost never brought up, by EITHER side of the debate. We're disarmed AROUND campus too. Ted Bundy worked AROUND the campuses.

    No one deserves to be a victim, but it's hard to feel sorry for college students if they are victimized when there is such little support from them on this issue.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  15. #15
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    No one deserves to be a victim, but it's hard to feel sorry for college students if they are victimized when there is such little support from them on this issue.
    You obviously haven't been to my campus....LOL I carry an empty holster daily and they absolutely hate it (security and the administration). I also hand out flyers and inform students of their rights (like that the security can not tell them they can't smoke on the city sidewalk, can't demand ID, etc.). I've had security want to search my book bag because of the holster and I simply tell them "nope". They've asked "is there a gun in your bag"...I tell them "I'll neither confirm nor deny that".

    Even the younger students support being able to carry and many have signed my petitions.

    Now in CA, NJ, or some other communist outpost, the students might not be so open but MOST of them become very supportive right after I explain to them that the school even prohibits their miniature pepper sprays and such that many of them carry...in the same rule that prohibits firearms. That usually gets them PISSED at the rules.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
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  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by We-the-People View Post
    Now in CA, NJ, or some other communist outpost, the students might not be so open but MOST of them become very supportive right after I explain to them that the school even prohibits their miniature pepper sprays and such that many of them carry...in the same rule that prohibits firearms. That usually gets them PISSED at the rules.
    Florida is not much different. We have the illusion of Gun Rights here. It's Guns and Rights for the 'only ones.' The concept of Gun Ownership is very elitist here. Think of it more like Chicago. If you're Connected and Rich, then you have Gun Rights. While you might still have those Rights when you aren't Connected and Rich, exercising them will get you screwed pretty hard.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  17. #17
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    I was under the impression that FL was fairly good on gun rights, as compared to many states, and working towards making it better. It's on my "short list" for relocation possibilities after I get my degree.

    Is there something missing that I should be including in my calculations?
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  18. #18
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    The only critically bad issue with Fl's gun laws is the OC situation, imo. You're in Oregon. At a glance, Fl has better self defense laws and preemption laws.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I think you may be incorrect about that. My car MAY be used as a deadly weapon in an assault, should I try to hit you with it. It isn't considered assault with a deadly weapon just because I lean against it or pop the hood to show off the factory turbocharger.

    Carrying a hammer MAY be considered assault with a deadly weapon, but I don't think anyone's going to get a conviction because there's one in the hammer holder on my carpenter's belt. I bet I could even carry one in my hands right past an officer and he wouldn't give it more than a second glance.

    Were it assault with a deadly weapon, then is it the same for an officer in Florida to do the same 'exposing'? If not, why not? Please cite the State Code applicable.

    IAW Florida Statute 784.021, (btw, there is no 'assault with a deadly weapon, it's 'aggravated assault') - - there can be no charge unless an assault takes place. An "Assault," as defined by Florida law, is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to another person, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear that violence is imminent.

    An example of an Assault would be walking up to a person in a bar, and raising your hand as though to karate chop the victim in the nose, and causing him to believe you were about to do violence unto him. You don't need to actually touch them; you just need to scare them to have committed an Assault. Merely having hands on the ends of your arms is not sufficient to meet the definition of assault.
    The act of showing a concealed firearm intentionally could be construed as an overt threat, meeting the criteria for the aggravated assault. This wasn't an OC situation (I don't believe), as I do believe the OP showed his gun to the dirtbag, even though it was holstered.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Interesting.
    What if instead of Florida being a "you'd better hide that thing" state, it were an open carry state like neighboring Georgia?
    Would someone turning so that the 'urban ute' saw an openly worn holster meet your criteria of aggravated assault?

    Remember please that 784.011 Assault requires an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
    A holstered pistol is no more a threat in a citizen's holster than it is in the holster of the local constabulary.

    What if the poster had instead put on a button with "I'm carrying a pistol" on his lapel? Would the young gentleman involved have been in just as much danger since he was just as aware that the poster was armed?

    What the poster implied was "I'm prepared to" not "I'm going to." Big difference in the eyes of the law.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 07-08-2011 at 11:14 AM.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Remember please that 784.011 Assault requires an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.

    A holstered pistol is no more a threat in a citizen's holster than it is in the holster of the local constabulary.
    I am in agreement with this interpretation, as my actions accounted. The 'urban youth' was the one fitting this description of actions. My actions only made it clear that any further escalation was patently unwise. Since Florida forces me to conceal, out of sight, out of mind. My firearm could not prevent anything since it was unknown to the actor. I made it known. He then re-evaluated his position based on this new information.

    Had the information been available from the beginning, I doubt there would have been a beginning. Instead, it forced me to do something that could have made many others even more uncomfortable.

    Briefly exposing a firearm, in my brief experiences in doing so, only serves to unnerve people. They don't have time to think it through, and then you cover it back up again, making you look like you're up to no good... It is engineered to make gun carriers look bad and to create intentionally skewed results to be used by anti-gunners to say "look how scared people got!" Duh...

    If I didn't have to act like a criminal with my gun, it wouldn't be scaring anyone...

    As currently written, the law demands that I act very suspiciously, and uses terms which are undefined and subjective to facilitate arrest and prosecution after compulsory compliance with that suspicious behavior.

    Force me to act suspiciously, then arrest me and prosecute me for that suspicious behavior...

    It's a trap!
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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