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Thread: CADL seeks to outlaw OC in Michigan

  1. #1
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    CADL seeks to outlaw OC in Michigan

    The CADL has appealed the recent circuit court ruling denying CADL's motion to have OC declared to be "brandishing".

    What that means folks... if the CADL is successful in having the Appellate Court declare OC fits the definition of "brandishing" then OC.... in the entire State of Michigan... becomes illegal.

    Yep, OC would become the crime of "brandishing" and the only way a person could carry a gun in the entire State would be concealed with a permit from MI or a different State MI recognizes the permits of.

    There would be no "right to bear arms".... just the "privilege to bear a concealed pistol IF you have the permit to do so"... in the entire State.

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...d.php?t=140346
    Last edited by Bikenut; 07-03-2011 at 06:59 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    This is unacceptable.

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    I can't afford to move, and don't want to leave my family, so I have to, want to, do my part to stop this crap.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 07-03-2011 at 10:45 PM.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    We have an AG opinion clearly on our side I don't see them being able to do it. By offering no other legal way to cary besides carrying concealed with a CPL they would undoubtably be violating the constitution (see my signature below).
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    AGOs are a guideline, they are not binding.

  6. #6
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    AGOs are a guideline, they are not binding.
    I recognize that but I just don't see it happening. We'd have to run into someone who flat hates guns and/or open carry. I think we are too strong an open carry state to have it become illegal from the bench.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    The Library, and whoever is backing them, are willing to bet a LOT of money to the contrary.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Look back around the Ponderosa stupidity I warned everyone this garbage was coming , and when we have idiots who think it's a great idea to "in your face" carry long guns in Libraries and places just for attention and to promote themselves and a couple of others who quietly push the person to do it for their own personal reasons to promote themselves. Now that it went seriously bad those who suggested he do it are now distancing themselves and are ready to throw the person under a bus. To carry is a responsibility not just a right. Many times I have pointed out how we represent ourselves greatly impacts how the Public views us and how this happens is directly proportional to how your elected officials will abuse your rights based on what they think they can get away with.

    We can sit here and pretend this was not the direct result of the Library and Ponderosa incidents but it is, and no one can deny this. And for those who will claim I am anti open carry of long guns don't even go there because I did it for 2 decades in Detroit with NOT ONE incident and with the full knowledge of Law Enforcement. These things are directly proportional to how one represents themselves. But I have said this countless times and it falls on deaf ears for the most part in this forum.

    It is my bet that until people here "GET IT" and start policing their own by calling out idiot behaviors that cause open carry to become the victim of the stupidity of others. We must remember we are fighting an uphill battle and to have three of our help make it harder is ridiculous. But what do I know, my profession was all about public relations for over 36 years, and being careful how I appear to others...

    Oh well I think once again this will fall on deaf ears.

    So xmanhockey7 I disagree and I understand why you think this, but I know how public opinion works and Nazi Germany is a good object lesson in how the Public can be manipulated for evil intentions.


    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I recognize that but I just don't see it happening. We'd have to run into someone who flat hates guns and/or open carry. I think we are too strong an open carry state to have it become illegal from the bench.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Greyh Seer's Avatar
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    Maybe if we would pass constitutional carry all of this BS would go away...one could only hope...

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Look back around the Ponderosa stupidity I warned everyone this garbage was coming , and when we have idiots who think it's a great idea to "in your face" carry long guns in Libraries and places just for attention and to promote themselves and a couple of others who quietly push the person to do it for their own personal reasons to promote themselves. Now that it went seriously bad those who suggested he do it are now distancing themselves and are ready to throw the person under a bus. To carry is a responsibility not just a right. Many times I have pointed out how we represent ourselves greatly impacts how the Public views us and how this happens is directly proportional to how your elected officials will abuse your rights based on what they think they can get away with.

    We can sit here and pretend this was not the direct result of the Library and Ponderosa incidents but it is, and no one can deny this. And for those who will claim I am anti open carry of long guns don't even go there because I did it for 2 decades in Detroit with NOT ONE incident and with the full knowledge of Law Enforcement. These things are directly proportional to how one represents themselves. But I have said this countless times and it falls on deaf ears for the most part in this forum.

    It is my bet that until people here "GET IT" and start policing their own by calling out idiot behaviors that cause open carry to become the victim of the stupidity of others. We must remember we are fighting an uphill battle and to have three of our help make it harder is ridiculous. But what do I know, my profession was all about public relations for over 36 years, and being careful how I appear to others...

    Oh well I think once again this will fall on deaf ears.

    So xmanhockey7 I disagree and I understand why you think this, but I know how public opinion works and Nazi Germany is a good object lesson in how the Public can be manipulated for evil intentions.
    There is one point that cannot be denied....

    The library in question had it's "no guns" policy in effect before any incidents occurred. And that means the library's policy was a bees nest already in place just waiting for something, anything (it didn't even have to be a person with a long gun but could have been a person with a properly holstered pistol), to poke it and set the bees off.

    Quite often folks put all the blame on the one who poked the beehive for stirring up the bees but the truth is that beehive was still there with bees waiting to sting.... so... to put all the blame on the person who poked the library and brought this "no guns" policy to light and brought the anti gun intentions of this library into the open is forgetting that it was the library that had the anti gun policy in effect to begin with.

    Now... granted the following is just my personal opinion...

    It does no good to pretend that all is well just because the library wasn't enforcing it's "no guns" policy when that policy is still there waiting to be enforced. The real culprit in this entire drama isn't the guy with the long gun... it is a library that thinks it is above the legislature and that it has the power to enforce a policy with the same force as law.

    And... like it or not... sooner or later some anti gun organization was going to come along and test whether they could get OC banned simply by declaring the right to bear arms in plain sight the crime of illegal brandishing.

    So... we can complain all we want but this fight was coming sooner or later.

    Now... ask yourselves... why would a library want to ban OC everywhere throughout the entire State of Michigan? A library? Really?
    Last edited by Bikenut; 07-04-2011 at 09:05 AM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  11. #11
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Look back around the Ponderosa stupidity I warned everyone this garbage was coming , and when we have idiots who think it's a great idea to "in your face" carry long guns in Libraries and places just for attention and to promote themselves and a couple of others who quietly push the person to do it for their own personal reasons to promote themselves. Now that it went seriously bad those who suggested he do it are now distancing themselves and are ready to throw the person under a bus. To carry is a responsibility not just a right. Many times I have pointed out how we represent ourselves greatly impacts how the Public views us and how this happens is directly proportional to how your elected officials will abuse your rights based on what they think they can get away with.

    We can sit here and pretend this was not the direct result of the Library and Ponderosa incidents but it is, and no one can deny this. And for those who will claim I am anti open carry of long guns don't even go there because I did it for 2 decades in Detroit with NOT ONE incident and with the full knowledge of Law Enforcement. These things are directly proportional to how one represents themselves. But I have said this countless times and it falls on deaf ears for the most part in this forum.

    It is my bet that until people here "GET IT" and start policing their own by calling out idiot behaviors that cause open carry to become the victim of the stupidity of others. We must remember we are fighting an uphill battle and to have three of our help make it harder is ridiculous. But what do I know, my profession was all about public relations for over 36 years, and being careful how I appear to others...

    Oh well I think once again this will fall on deaf ears.

    So xmanhockey7 I disagree and I understand why you think this, but I know how public opinion works and Nazi Germany is a good object lesson in how the Public can be manipulated for evil intentions.
    I do not even know WHERE to begin to express my disgust with your attitude. A right is a right and you condoning an infringement on a right so that you can make other people comfortable makes me ill.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I believe their appeal will fail. The MI Court Of Appeals will have to Rule that the Plain Language in MCL 28.422 does not mean what it says.

    Quote Originally Posted by MCL 28.422
    License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.

    Sec. 2.

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section
    ...
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    $250 Donated to MOC Legal Defense Fund.

    http://michiganopencarry.org/

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Look back around the Ponderosa stupidity I warned everyone this garbage was coming , and when we have idiots who think it's a great idea to "in your face" carry long guns in Libraries and places just for attention and to promote themselves and a couple of others who quietly push the person to do it for their own personal reasons to promote themselves. Now that it went seriously bad those who suggested he do it are now distancing themselves and are ready to throw the person under a bus. To carry is a responsibility not just a right. Many times I have pointed out how we represent ourselves greatly impacts how the Public views us and how this happens is directly proportional to how your elected officials will abuse your rights based on what they think they can get away with.

    We can sit here and pretend this was not the direct result of the Library and Ponderosa incidents but it is, and no one can deny this. And for those who will claim I am anti open carry of long guns don't even go there because I did it for 2 decades in Detroit with NOT ONE incident and with the full knowledge of Law Enforcement. These things are directly proportional to how one represents themselves. But I have said this countless times and it falls on deaf ears for the most part in this forum.

    It is my bet that until people here "GET IT" and start policing their own by calling out idiot behaviors that cause open carry to become the victim of the stupidity of others. We must remember we are fighting an uphill battle and to have three of our help make it harder is ridiculous. But what do I know, my profession was all about public relations for over 36 years, and being careful how I appear to others...

    Oh well I think once again this will fall on deaf ears.

    So xmanhockey7 I disagree and I understand why you think this, but I know how public opinion works and Nazi Germany is a good object lesson in how the Public can be manipulated for evil intentions.
    Both of the persons who OC'ed Long Guns were not members of MOC, yet it has been MOC that was sued by the Anti's and strongly criticized by fellow Firearm Owners. I believe you fully understand that individuals have their Rights and will choose to exercise them as they see fit, most of the time regardless of what is said to them (probably has something to do with Unalienable Rights and people being people).

    I believe it to be disingenuous to state that Long Gun OC is being "pushed" by anyone other than the 2 who "did the deed" and to state that there are those who are "quietly pushing" such an agenda smacks of a conspiracy mentality. If you have evidence of such an agenda, I believe you should post such and I know you have no issue calling out people here on this forum.

    For the record, I personally persuaded the person who carried a Shotgun in CADL on 12/11/2010 to not carry his Ruger 10/22 "Michigan Pistol" in the Huntington Woods City Council Meeting on 12/21/2010 (which just so happened to be in the bottom of a Library). I support his right to do so even though I do not agree with him nor do see a need for Long Gun OC for my own personal protection needs.

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    Regular Member Greyh Seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    I believe their appeal will fail. The MI Court Of Appeals will have to Rule that the Plain Language in MCL 28.422 does not mean what it says.



    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422
    I do think it's funny that we quote an unconstitutinal law as our defense (not picking, I think this law will most undoubtedly be used by our lawers to destroy CADL's claims).

    I just think this law is better:

    6 Bearing of arms.
    Sec. 6. Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Look back around the Ponderosa stupidity I warned everyone this garbage was coming , and when we have idiots who think it's a great idea to "in your face" carry long guns in Libraries and places just for attention and to promote themselves and a couple of others who quietly push the person to do it for their own personal reasons to promote themselves. Now that it went seriously bad those who suggested he do it are now distancing themselves and are ready to throw the person under a bus. To carry is a responsibility not just a right. Many times I have pointed out how we represent ourselves greatly impacts how the Public views us and how this happens is directly proportional to how your elected officials will abuse your rights based on what they think they can get away with.

    We can sit here and pretend this was not the direct result of the Library and Ponderosa incidents but it is, and no one can deny this. And for those who will claim I am anti open carry of long guns don't even go there because I did it for 2 decades in Detroit with NOT ONE incident and with the full knowledge of Law Enforcement. These things are directly proportional to how one represents themselves. But I have said this countless times and it falls on deaf ears for the most part in this forum.

    It is my bet that until people here "GET IT" and start policing their own by calling out idiot behaviors that cause open carry to become the victim of the stupidity of others. We must remember we are fighting an uphill battle and to have three of our help make it harder is ridiculous. But what do I know, my profession was all about public relations for over 36 years, and being careful how I appear to others...

    Oh well I think once again this will fall on deaf ears.

    So xmanhockey7 I disagree and I understand why you think this, but I know how public opinion works and Nazi Germany is a good object lesson in how the Public can be manipulated for evil intentions.
    Wow, BE. I seldom disagree with you, but I certainly do on this one.

    The person who carried the LGOC into the library did it for reasons that were both sound, and commendable. The following is my response to a similar position taken by the anti OC Fudds at MGO, it fits here so Im quoting myself. :

    Sure, blame MOC for what a non member did. MOC deserves credit for stepping up to the plate for attacks on gun owners despite the fact that "shotgun boy" isnt even a member. Kudos MOC.

    BTW, "shotgun boy", deserves a medal for exercising his rights when they were challenged, Too many don't have the nuts for that. We should be thanking him for his part in bringing this PRE EXISTING problem out of the closet where it can be dealt with.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 07-04-2011 at 10:36 AM.

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    We need to stop the cannibalism!

    Agreed, carrying a long gun into a public place, although legal, is undeniably provocative, and unlikely to garner support among those that sit on the fence.

    If the long gun was not in a scabbard, there's a very real chance that someone may misunderstand your intentions, which could lead to disastrous results.

    Who's willing to take the first round to determine the LG carrier's intentions?
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    If the gun is not in the hand, it is not a threat. LG or HG is irrelevant.

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    It is my bet that until people here "GET IT" and start policing their own by calling out idiot behaviors that cause open carry to become the victim of the stupidity of others.
    Agreed, carrying a long gun into a public place, although legal, is undeniably provocative, and unlikely to garner support among those that sit on the fence.
    These are the SAME arguments that the CC guys, the anti's, and the bedwetters use against us for Open Carrying.

    You either FULLY support Open carrying, that which is legal, or you're no better than those that get their panties in a bunch when they see a legally carried pistol on my hip.

  20. #20
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    These are the SAME arguments that the CC guys, the anti's, and the bedwetters use against us for Open Carrying.

    You either FULLY support Open carrying, that which is legal, or you're no better than those that get their panties in a bunch when they see a legally carried pistol on my hip.
    Amen!!!

  21. #21
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    All it takes is a little judicial activism in this case and OC will be gone in MI. If anyone thinks that our reps would pass a new law allowing OC if it is ruled illegal is mistaken, it wouldn't happen.

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    These are the SAME arguments that the CC guys, the anti's, and the bedwetters use against us for Open Carrying.

    You either FULLY support Open carrying, that which is legal, or you're no better than those that get their panties in a bunch when they see a legally carried pistol on my hip.
    Sorry you feel that way. If you feel that pi$$ing off the fence sitters is an effective strategy, have at it; let me know how it works out for you.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Tell me what's the difference between your belief that Open carry is OK, as long as someone doesn't do *****, and the CC crowd who claim to defend the 2A but say open carriers are going to ruin it for all of us?

    Same thing from the hunters that claim there's no good reason for anyone to own an AR-15 and sales of "assault weapons" should be regulated.

    It's that kind of thinking that's gotten us in the mess we're in today with gun control. They say that they don't want gun control, they just want to restrict certain things, or actions, or particular guns or types of guns, or the number of bullets in your mag, that's all. What harm can there be in that?

    If calling that hypocritical pisses you off, then so be it.

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    I'm wondering, how many of us live in the area of CADL? And how many of us have CADL library cards? If we had some sort of semi-decent numbers, we might make a show of burning our library cards. Granted, it's only symbolism, but it would make a point.

    Boycotting the library for trampling on our basic human rights.

    It was just an idea that I had.
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 07-04-2011 at 07:06 PM.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Here is a thought....

    If OC is judged to be the crime of "brandishing" then could an accidental exposure of any part of a CC'd pistol... or perhaps even printing... also be considered "brandishing"?
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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