OC in Durham question??

jeffrey xd45 · Jul 3, 2011

i found this on municode.com after reading another thread about some grey areas on OC. I want to know if i am reading too much into this or does this mean no OC at these locations, service stations, i consider gas stations, shopping centers considered wal- mart, lowes.

Durham County:

sec 46-23 -display of firearm or other dangerous weapons at public places or public assembly prohibited

(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person to display a firearm or other dangerous weapon, as defined by section 46-22 in any public place or at any public assembly.

(b)
For purposes of this section, the following words have the meanings indicated:Public assembly means any gathering where the public has been invited, without payment of an admission fee or charge, for the purpose of viewing or participating in some function or event, including but not limited to, concerts, fairs, expositions and health screenings, and the public parking areas thereof.

Public place means privately owned property or part thereof which is commonly made available for the use and enjoyment of the general public, including but not limited to, religious facilities, hospitals, medical clinics, restaurants, service stations and garages, shopping malls and shopping centers, stores, office buildings and theatres, and the public parking areas thereof.

Dreamer · Jul 3, 2011

jeffrey xd45 said:
i found this on municode.com after reading another thread about some grey areas on OC. I want to know if i am reading too much into this or does this mean no OC at these locations, service stations, i consider gas stations, shopping centers considered wal- mart, lowes.

Durham County:

sec 46-23 -display of firearm or other dangerous weapons at public places or public assembly prohibited

(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person to display a firearm or other dangerous weapon, as defined by section 46-22 in any public place or at any public assembly.

(b)
For purposes of this section, the following words have the meanings indicated:Public assembly means any gathering where the public has been invited, without payment of an admission fee or charge, for the purpose of viewing or participating in some function or event, including but not limited to, concerts, fairs, expositions and health screenings, and the public parking areas thereof.

Public place means privately owned property or part thereof which is commonly made available for the use and enjoyment of the general public, including but not limited to, religious facilities, hospitals, medical clinics, restaurants, service stations and garages, shopping malls and shopping centers, stores, office buildings and theatres, and the public parking areas thereof.

From my understanding of NCs "State Preemption" statute, this municipal code is illegal. Cities or counties may pass laws prohibiting carry on city or county-owned property, but NOT on public property owned by the State (which is ALL streets and highways) or regulating carry on private property, except for the city of Cary, which has a special exemption.

But IANAL...

mattwestm · Jul 3, 2011

We all know what roots that municipal code has. I constantly wonder why it's still okay to keep racist laws like this around.

jeffrey xd45 · Jul 4, 2011

i was more worried about the display of a firearm ban as stated above section (a), making OC illegal, right?

EricDailey X-NRA · Jul 4, 2011

OC ban sidewalks, Cary NC

Dreamer said:
From my understanding of NCs "State Preemption" statute, this municipal code is illegal. Cities or counties may pass laws prohibiting carry on city or county-owned property, but NOT on public property owned by the State (which is ALL streets and highways) or regulating carry on private property, except for the city of Cary, which has a special exemption.

But IANAL...

FYI
This is the NC statute used by Cary NC to ban OC on sidewalks, streets, alleys, etc. It may be used by any city in NC.

GS160A-189 Firearms
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/pdf/bysection/chapter_160a/gs_160a-189.pdf

This is the Cary PD narrative on the Ordinance, it links to the actual Ordinance, Sec.22-51.
http://www.townofcary.org/Departmen...Services/Firearms_within_the_Town_of_Cary.htm

This NC statute may be used by Counties to ban OC on sidewalks, streets, alleys, etc.
GS153A-129 Firearms
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_153a/gs_153a-129.html

I don't know an answer to the OP.

Gunslinger · Jul 5, 2011

EricDailey X-NRA said:
FYI
This is the NC statute used by Cary NC to ban OC on sidewalks, streets, alleys, etc. It may be used by any city in NC.

GS160A-189 Firearms
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/pdf/bysection/chapter_160a/gs_160a-189.pdf

This is the Cary PD narrative on the Ordinance, it links to the actual Ordinance, Sec.22-51.
http://www.townofcary.org/Departmen...Services/Firearms_within_the_Town_of_Cary.htm

This NC statute may be used by Counties to ban OC on sidewalks, streets, alleys, etc.
GS153A-129 Firearms
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_153a/gs_153a-129.html

I don't know an answer to the OP.

Cary cannot ban licensed, CC due to state preemption. Their ordinance is BS. OC is another issue, evidently.

EricDailey X-NRA · Jul 5, 2011

No

Gunslinger said:
Cary cannot ban licensed, CC due to state preemption. Their ordinance is BS. OC is another issue, evidently.

You are mistaken.

EricDailey X-NRA · Jul 5, 2011

No NC Preemption Law

Dreamer said:
From my understanding of NCs "State Preemption" statute, this municipal code is illegal. Cities or counties may pass laws prohibiting carry on city or county-owned property, but NOT on public property owned by the State (which is ALL streets and highways) or regulating carry on private property, except for the city of Cary, which has a special exemption.

But IANAL...

EricDailey X-NRA said:
.

The "Title" of this Law 14-409.40, is "Statewide uniformity of local regulation."
The law does have the word "preemption" in it but it is so full of EXEMPTIONS that it could be titled "SWISS CHEESE".

The purpose of this bill is ONLY to protect gun makers and sellers from municipal lawsuits. Only the NC atty general can sue gun folks for the injuries to persons in NC. This bill is only to stop the Brady crowd from helping Chapel Hill from suing Smith and Wesson and Winchester. This bill (14-409.40) could be named the "NRA financial patron protection act" You can probably find one just like in in every state in the Union.

No NC Preemption Law.

EricDailey X-NRA · Jul 6, 2011

Great Work jeffrey xd45

jeffrey xd45 said:
i found this on municode.com after reading another thread about some grey areas on OC. I want to know if i am reading too much into this or does this mean no OC at these locations, service stations, i consider gas stations, shopping centers considered wal- mart, lowes.

Durham County:

sec 46-23 -display of firearm or other dangerous weapons at public places or public assembly prohibited

(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person to display a firearm or other dangerous weapon, as defined by section 46-22 in any public place or at any public assembly.

(b)
For purposes of this section, the following words have the meanings indicated:Public assembly means any gathering where the public has been invited, without payment of an admission fee or charge, for the purpose of viewing or participating in some function or event, including but not limited to, concerts, fairs, expositions and health screenings, and the public parking areas thereof.

Public place means privately owned property or part thereof which is commonly made available for the use and enjoyment of the general public, including but not limited to, religious facilities, hospitals, medical clinics, restaurants, service stations and garages, shopping malls and shopping centers, stores, office buildings and theatres, and the public parking areas thereof.

From you OP on this ordinance I had to find out if there would be a problem for our scheduled Meetup.com Triangle Open Carry Event posted at the Meetup page for Friday July 8th at 7 PM in Durham City, NC at the Bob Evans restaurant on Mt. Moriah Road.

After some research I called the Durham City Police attorney Ms. Toni Smith with the question about this ban on OC in Durham. Her response to me is that they have determined that there is no statutory authority for the ordinance. Ms. Smith told me the Chief of Police will be issuing a directive to the Department against any officer enforcement of this ordinance. The Department will advise the Durham City attorney that the Durham City council should correct this ordinance to comply with NC statutes.

Much credit goes to you jeffrey and OCDO for this improvement.

EDIT: this ordinance 46-23 is in fact for Durham City NC and not a Durham County NC ordinance.

Gunslinger · Jul 6, 2011

EricDailey X-NRA said:
You are mistaken.

§ 160A-189. Firearms.
A city may by ordinance regulate, restrict, or prohibit the discharge of firearms at any time or place within the city except when used in defense of person or property or pursuant to lawful directions of law-enforcement officers, and may regulate the <<<<<display of firearms>>>> on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property. Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit a city's authority to take action under Article 36A of Chapter 14 of the General Statutes. (1971, c. 698, s. 1.)

Specifically mentions 'display.' Concealed, by definition, is not 'display.'

EricDailey X-NRA · Jul 6, 2011

14‑415.23. Statewide uniformity.

Gunslinger said:
Cary cannot ban licensed, CC due to state preemption. Their ordinance is BS. OC is another issue, evidently.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-415.23.html

§ 14‑415.23. Statewide uniformity.

It is the intent of the General Assembly to prescribe a uniform system for the regulation of legally carrying a concealed handgun. To insure uniformity, no political subdivisions, boards, or agencies of the State nor any county, city, municipality, municipal corporation, town, township, village, nor any department or agency thereof, may enact ordinances, rules, or regulations concerning legally carrying a concealed handgun.

A unit of local government may adopt an ordinance to permit the posting of a prohibition

against carrying a concealed handgun,

in accordance with G.S. 14‑415.11(c), on local government buildings, their appurtenant premises, and parks. (1995, c. 398, s. 1.)

Gunslinger · Jul 6, 2011

EricDailey X-NRA said:
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-415.23.html

§ 14‑415.23. Statewide uniformity.

It is the intent of the General Assembly to prescribe a uniform system for the regulation of legally carrying a concealed handgun. To insure uniformity, no political subdivisions, boards, or agencies of the State nor any county, city, municipality, municipal corporation, town, township, village, nor any department or agency thereof, may enact ordinances, rules, or regulations concerning legally carrying a concealed handgun.

A unit of local government may adopt an ordinance to permit the posting of a prohibition

against carrying a concealed handgun,

in accordance with G.S. 14‑415.11(c), on local government buildings, their appurtenant premises, and parks. (1995, c. 398, s. 1.)

You left off a key portion of the statute:

A unit of local government may adopt an ordinance to permit the posting of a prohibition against carrying a concealed handgun, in accordance with G.S. 14‑415.11(c), >>>>on local government buildings, their appurtenant premises, and parks. >>>>>

"Only" in specified, government buildings and premises. It does mention parks, which is different than Colorado, but we ban firearms wherever a metal detector is used in a government building as well. The talk was of "public" places. Local governments do not, by statute, have the power to ban CC there in NC.

EricDailey X-NRA · Jul 6, 2011

Open Carry

Gunslinger said:
... The talk was of "public" places. Local governments do not, by statute, have the power to ban CC there in NC.

The OP (original post) was about open carry ban in Durham NC. My first post in this thread is about open carry ban in Cary NC. I don't know why you posted about CC. I don't know why you think it doesn't count that local governments CAN ban CC in their buildings and premises and, for now, CAN ban CC in their town parks.

Gunslinger · Jul 7, 2011

EricDailey X-NRA said:
The OP (original post) was about open carry ban in Durham NC. My first post in this thread is about open carry ban in Cary NC. I don't know why you posted about CC. I don't know why you think it doesn't count that local governments CAN ban CC in their buildings and premises and, for now, CAN ban CC in their town parks.

OP was concerned with "public places." It was incorrectly implied CC was prohibited there, hence my posts. As I said, every state bans CC in some government buildings, even CO. Jails and courts being the primes. As to banning CC in parks, that's stupid and something NC should change at the local level. That being said, CC is preempted with that single, unreasonable exception by the state. That was the only point I was trying to make. "Public" places are not banned CC locations by 'any' town/city.

EricDailey X-NRA · Jul 7, 2011

>Implying CC

Gunslinger said:
OP was concerned with "public places." It was incorrectly implied CC was prohibited there, hence my posts. As I said, every state bans CC in some government buildings, even CO. Jails and courts being the primes. As to banning CC in parks, that's stupid and something NC should change at the local level. That being said, CC is preempted with that single, unreasonable exception by the state. That was the only point I was trying to make. "Public" places are not banned CC locations by 'any' town/city.

There is NO mention of cc in this thread until YOU mention cc. I do not follow your logic here. This thread is about open carry.

Gunslinger · Jul 7, 2011

EricDailey X-NRA said:
There is NO mention of cc in this thread until YOU mention cc. I do not follow your logic here. This thread is about open carry.

•The Town of Cary does not allow the open or <<<<<<<<<<<concealed carry>>>>>>>>>> of a weapon while on any public property within our community including on greenways, in public parks or Town facilities, or in Town-owned parking lots. The ordinance does not allow the open carry of any firearm on public sidewalks or right-of-ways. See Section 22-51(a) of the Town of Cary Code of Ordinances.

You linked this Cary ordinance in your first post. I was simply pointing out that Cary cannot ban CC on public areas. State preemption allows "display," qua OC regulations by towns; not banning CC. Therefore, the ordinance is unlawful. The thread is about Durham County, so your link of the Cary regulation called for clarification, imo. I worked in NC so am familiar with many of the ****** up laws. "Going armed to the terror of the people..."

EricDailey X-NRA · Jul 7, 2011

Yes, now...

Gunslinger said:
•The Town of Cary does not allow the open or <<<<<<<<<<<concealed carry>>>>>>>>>> of a weapon while on any public property within our community including on greenways, in public parks or Town facilities, or in Town-owned parking lots. The ordinance does not allow the open carry of any firearm on public sidewalks or right-of-ways. See Section 22-51(a) of the Town of Cary Code of Ordinances.

You linked this Cary ordinance in your first post. I was simply pointing out that Cary cannot ban CC on public areas. State preemption allows "display," qua OC regulations by towns; not banning CC. Therefore, the ordinance is unlawful. The thread is about Durham County, so your link of the Cary regulation called for clarification, imo. I worked in NC so am familiar with many of the ****** up laws. "Going armed to the terror of the people..."

I see what you did there.

Thanks for the help.

EricDailey X-NRA · Jul 7, 2011

Meet Up in Durham Friday July 8th 7 PM

jeffrey xd45 said:
i was more worried about the display of a firearm ban as stated above section (a), making OC illegal, right?

EricDailey X-NRA said:
From you OP on this ordinance I had to find out if there would be a problem for our scheduled Meetup.com Triangle Open Carry Event posted at the Meetup page for Friday July 8th at 7 PM in Durham City, NC at the Bob Evans restaurant on Mt. Moriah Road.

After some research I called the Durham City Police attorney Ms. Toni Smith with the question about this ban on OC in Durham. Her response to me is that they have determined that there is no statutory authority for the ordinance. Ms. Smith told me the Chief of Police will be issuing a directive to the Department against any officer enforcement of this ordinance. The Department will advise the Durham City attorney that the Durham City council should correct this ordinance to comply with NC statutes.

Much credit goes to you jeffrey and OCDO for this improvement.

EDIT: this ordinance 46-23 is in fact for Durham City NC and not a Durham County NC ordinance.

Thanks to jeffrey xd45 and OCDO we have an email statement from the Durham City Police Department Attorney that the ordinance is in violation of NC statutes.

Please join us for the meet up in Durham NC Friday July 8th at 7PM Bob Evans Mt. Moriah road.
The bigger the turnout we have the better for OC. It should be a lot of fun.

Dreamer · Jul 7, 2011

EricDailey X-NRA said:
Thanks to jeffrey xd45 and OCDO we have an email statement from the Durham City Police Department Attorney that the ordinance is in violation of NC statutes.

So the next step is to take this letter to the next Durham City Council Meeting and INSIST that they remove this illegal code from their Municipal Codes.

A large turnout of support would be very helpful, and I'm sure you could get half a dozen or more folks to show...

EricDailey X-NRA · Jul 8, 2011

From Durham City Police Department Attorny

Dreamer said:
So the next step is to take this letter to the next Durham City Council Meeting and INSIST that they remove this illegal code from their Municipal Codes.

A large turnout of support would be very helpful, and I'm sure you could get half a dozen or more folks to show...

I'll have a copy of the email message with me at the Meetup in Durham. It states that the DPD Chief will take appropriate immediate action to address this bad ordinance and the Department will notify the Durham City Attorney to advise the Durham city council to correct the ordinance when they return from summer recess.

"...attention of the Chief of
Police for immediate appropriate action. As I mentioned, the City
Council has adjourned for a summer break, but I have brought this matter
to the attention of the City Attorney so that we can address with
Council. Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention...."

The Meetup Event at Bob Evans restaurant on Mt. Moriah road is a very nice place with a big semi-private area for our group. The manager is friends with the operator of the place we had our last Event in Raleigh. We should get a warm welcome from them. I'd like to be able to tell him how many to expect later today. A big turnout would be very nice. Thanks.

Bob Evans has a large parking lot at the back where we can assemble and go in. I hope to see folks there.

Check out this Meetup with Triangle Open Carry http://meetu.ps/3d7t

OC in Durham question??

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