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Thread: wilding teen mobs

  1. #1
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    wilding teen mobs

    This has been an increasing problem across the country.
    I know there have been many attacks in Chicago, & I've read of them happening elsewhere.
    Now it's come to my town, & in the WI thread we sort of started this discussion, but I thought it was more appropriate over here:

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal
    Started by hitting a gas station, then they attacked people in a park.
    Store security camera video available w/ the story here.
    Has some good shots of various kids' faces, so maybe some of them will be brought to justice.
    A group of friends hanging out at Reservoir Park in Milwaukee were attacked and robbed around midnight on July 4th.
    The victims said a group of nearly 50 teenagers came running down North Avenue early Monday morning.
    ...a group of teens looted the BP gas station... at North Humboldt and East North Avenues.
    The surveillance video showed boys and girls snatching chips, beverages and entire display cases before running out of the store.
    ...residents said this same group of teenagers have been running around the Riverwest neighborhood for weeks.
    Riverwest is pretty nice, but the park they mention is between there & the start of some really crappy areas of the city.
    Just once, I'd like to see a store clerk hit by these wilding mobs lock the door, stand in front of it w/ a pistol & phone, & call 911.
    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57
    Since the title of this thread is "No Need For A Gun?" what would a person do if this happened to them?

    With that many assailants you would quickly run out of pepper spray or if carrying an electric weapon (in the future of course) you would be unable to stop that many. If you used your gun you would be arrested (most likely) with our current laws (ie. no real Castle Doctrine in Wisconsin).

    Is it time to consider a high capacity handgun and carry more than three high capacity magazines? I think this kind of thing will occur more and more and spread to many more neighborhoods.
    In the comments on the article above, I posted that I think being attacked by a mob is a threat to life & limb & would shoot, or if on a jury I would vote against penalties for someone else who shot. I think that's covered under current self-defense law, though I look forward to SYG & Castle Doctrine making things safer for citizens.

    As for multiple high-capacity (or even average capacity) magazines, I don't think it would take stopping more than 2 or 3 of the assailants before the rest would turn tail & run. In a "target-rich environment" like an attacking mob, that could probably even be done with a CA-legal reduced-capacity magazine.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 07-05-2011 at 05:49 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    The way to handle it is to partner up, both parties carrying. Though a 'mob' might get aggressive against a lone person with a partner you have

    1. A witness;
    2. Someone who can run the recorder and present a non-lethal option;
    3. Give advice and remind the other of tactics ("get out the OC spray"; "get in the car and start it up")
    4. Get a cross-fire going;
    5. Have an emotional reason to use SD (In protection of my loved one);
    6. Harder, tactically, to swarm two or more victims.

    I'd be much more willing to shoot if they were attacking my gf, whether she was armed or not - it gives a moral high ground. It's harder to evade, you can't leave a loved one behind.

    $.02
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    This has been an increasing problem across the country.
    I know there have been many attacks in Chicago, & I've read of them happening elsewhere.
    Now it's come to my town, & in the WI thread we sort of started this discussion, but I thought it was more appropriate over here:





    In the comments on the article above, I posted that I think being attacked by a mob is a threat to life & limb & would shoot, or if on a jury I would vote against penalties for someone else who shot. I think that's covered under current self-defense law, though I look forward to SYG & Castle Doctrine making things safer for citizens.

    As for multiple high-capacity (or even average capacity) magazines, I don't think it would take stopping more than 2 or 3 of the assailants before the rest would turn tail & run. In a "target-rich environment" like an attacking mob, that could probably even be done with a CA-legal reduced-capacity magazine.
    I would agree. I think the mob would disperse if met with deadly force. An extra magazine is never a bad idea though. what is the mentality behind these random attacks?
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  4. #4
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    The reason, though, that kids are feeling invulnerable doing this is they know no one wants to harm a (single) kid. Though they are a 'mob', if you harm one, they become a 'teenager' who is a good kid just trying to turn his life around and got 'caught up' and wasn't thinking.

    Believe me, you do not want to have shot a teenager. If you can partner up (or even keep to small groups) you have a good chance (if also armed) to avoid being a victim.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd
    what is the mentality behind these random attacks?
    Bored kids with a severe lack of parental attention all their lives.
    There's no "mentality" to it - it's done for "fun", even the attacks on people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson
    If you can partner up (or even keep to small groups) you have a good chance (if also armed) to avoid being a victim.
    The people referred to in the article, & seen on the news video, were in a group.
    The mob was bigger.
    But the victims weren't armed.
    Some may see it as cold, but I pointed out in the article comments that they have the same ability to carry openly as I do, but chose not to, and suffered the consequences.

    I could see going back to back w/ someone in that situation, & I'd love to see the looks on the faces of those little hooligans if they stumbled across an OC picnic.
    Facing a line of armed adults, even if the pistols were still holstered, I bet they'd decide to leave.

    I agree, I wouldn't want to have shot a teen... But with other witnesses, & maybe injuries, hopefully the police & DA would have some sense. We really need to get a SYG law passed soon.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 07-05-2011 at 09:40 PM.

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    Regular Member Mas49.56's Avatar
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    http://www.warriortalknews.com/
    Scroll down to how to deal with flash mobs.
    Seems like good advice to me.

  7. #7
    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mas49.56 View Post
    http://www.warriortalknews.com/
    Scroll down to how to deal with flash mobs.
    Seems like good advice to me.
    This article brings up a topic I have discussed with my ex on more than one occassion. The way the citizens in the US have been trained to believe that the use of force is wrong. Now, I believe the mis-use of force is wrong, but I can remember back in the 1970s after carrying a concealed handgun was legislated away, New York City was a hotbed of shootings and violence (some of it mob-related) and the Mayor and Chief of Police being interviewed saying, "We're here to protect you, so don't take matters into your own hands, just call us and we'll be there."

    Well, we see how well that worked out. Thugs became bolder because they knew their victims would not be armed. Rapists growing ever more bold because their victims were unarmed. While thugs and drug dealers were carrying with near-impugnity because the only others who had weapons were the cops.

    It took me a long time to actually break that conditioning. And I have met many people from other countries who look at Amerikinskis as violent and nearly sub-human. Yet, in their country, they have not been able to own self-defense weapons for decades and would never dream of resisting someone trying to rob or even kill themselves.

    We are not just fighting for the right to carry a weapon for self-defense, we are fighting for the right to actually defend ourselves.
    cheers - okboomer
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    I would agree. I think the mob would disperse if met with deadly force. An extra magazine is never a bad idea though. what is the mentality behind these random attacks?
    Why would anyone need 30 rounds for self-defense?

    [/sarcasm]

    I am not going to carry with a 30-rounder lodged in the grip and protruding behind me like a tail, however I have a 15-rounder in my new Glock and two spare 10-rounders in my magazine holster. I have little doubt that, if I get a chance to deploy it against a mob with violent intent against me, they will disperse before all 36 rounds are spent.

  9. #9
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Prosecutor: "At ANY time did ANY of the children lay a hand on you?"

    Defendant: "... well, er, no. But there was like 50 of..."

    Prosecutor: "Thank you for answering the question. Now. Not one of these children harmed you in any way?"

    Defendant: "... no. And they weren't "Children"."

    Prosecutor: "Yet you saw fit to unload three clips from your highly customized concealed weapon. Loaded with special bullets to maximize killing. {turns dramatically to the jury} Into a group of good church going children, who were just trying to enjoy a peaceful bible reading in the park. At 1:30am. Children in the process of turning their lives around. And maybe even getting on the honor roll in the very distant future. Some of them might have even enrolled in a technical college if they got their GED. "

    Defendant: "... but, ah, they were..."

    Prosecutor " But? But they will never see that honor roll now. Will they Mr/Mrs. *******? Will they?"

    Defendant: "BUT, ah, they were gonna..."

    Prosecutor: "Gonna what? We have 50 witnesses that say you drew and fired on them UNPROVOKED."
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 07-06-2011 at 01:19 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    I watched several videos of the "children" in question...

    I'm just not sure what to say.
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

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  11. #11
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Could you post links please?
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    The standard applied in most States is called "the reasonable man standard." Would a reasonable man, in the same situation, believe that he (or another) faced the level of danger that State law requires to allow deadly force to be used for defense of self (or others)?

    Anyone who would be incompetent at answering prosecutor questions while on the stand shouldn't necessarily assume that others would be equally incompetent.

    Just keep falling back on, "There were so many of them, coming at me from several directions, saying threatening things (recount them) and taking hostile actions (recount those too) that I felt that I was in imminent danger of losing my life." Rinse. Repeat.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The standard applied in most States is called "the reasonable man standard." Would a reasonable man, in the same situation, believe that he (or another) faced the level of danger that State law requires to allow deadly force to be used for defense of self (or others)?

    Anyone who would be incompetent at answering prosecutor questions while on the stand shouldn't necessarily assume that others would be equally incompetent.

    Just keep falling back on, "There were so many of them, coming at me from several directions, saying threatening things (recount them) and taking hostile actions (recount those too) that I felt that I was in imminent danger of losing my life." Rinse. Repeat.
    http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/698c...c?OpenDocument
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    That article touches on so many issues that folks have discussed here (sometimes heatedly) that everyone should read it. Good find. Thanks for posting it.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet
    Could you post links please?
    The link in the 1st post goes to a news story w/ video from WTMJ (4).
    Other stations in the MKE area picked it up yesterday (not really on top of things).
    This is from Fox...
    The victims were brought to one woman's house nearby the reservoir by her daughter. "According to the kids they were pushed down, kicked in the face, kicked in the head," she said. "I had four young people in my kitchen who had been beaten and we took care of them, tended to their wounds and held them while they cried."
    The injuries needed stitches and one woman needs surgery for a fractured jaw.
    But the attackers are just "kids", right?
    This is the first I'd heard that children were attacked too.

    Apparently some parents are starting to do the right thing & turn their kids in.

    Looking at the kids in these still photos made from the video it's disgusting how they're laughing & smiling while they loot. And the news site makes sure to say they're "persons of interest, not suspects", even though they're caught on video looting.

    Chief Flynn defending his officers...
    The victims were critical of police saying officers made them feel like it was their fault for getting attacked...
    Police say there were at least six armed robberies with at least eleven victims, most around the same time as the looting.
    This is astonishing:
    [A victim] said, "19 people had stayed at the top of the hill to find stolen possessions, find friends and to give statements."
    Flynn responded, "We're not likely to take 19 separate statements about a single crime given our other obligations at that time."
    And Mayor Barrett defending the police...
    The Mayor of Milwaukee is defending Police Chief Ed Flynn, saying he thinks people who live in his city are safe after the recent attacks in Riverwest on July 3rd and the early morning of July 4th.
    Of course he thinks it's safe! HE has police protection.
    It was an unusual situation
    No it wasn't. Listen to what residents say - the robberies, attacks, & mobs happen frequently.

  16. #16
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    No it wasn't. Listen to what residents say - the robberies, attacks, & mobs happen frequently.
    Guess the Mayor has honesty issues.

    "It's Christmas week. A guy's trying to drive down the street. What's the problem here?" said Mayor Tom Barrett.

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...#ixzz1ROFSgqmz


    Several Questioned in Milwaukee Driver's Beating

    Wednesday, December 28, 2005

    Police said he was pulled from the car, and witnesses said they saw some attackers climb on cars and jump on the victim's head.

    Britney King said she and her two sisters saw the attackers doing flips and cartwheels from cars onto the man.

    "It looked like they were having a block party," she said.

    Several mob beatings have taken place in Milwaukee's inner city in recent years. In 2002, more than a dozen people, mostly boys, chased a man through the streets and beat him to death with shovel handles, rakes and tree limbs.

    A man with schizophrenia died after being beaten and robbed by a group in 2004. Six teens were charged; one was convicted, charges against four were dropped and one is awaiting trial.

    Four days after that attack, a 14-year-old boy was kicked, punched and hit on the head with a piece of lumber after he exchanged words with a girl. He was in a coma for two weeks. Also that summer, four brothers were beaten by a group armed with bats, bottles, sticks and socks stuffed with canned food.




    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Probably the best I've read on self defense and written so laymen can understand. You don't always see that in acticles written by and for lawyers.

    Colorado holds that, if the defendant is not the initial aggressor or engaged in mutual combat, he “is not obliged to retreat or flee to save his life, but may stand his ground, and even, in some circumstances, pursue his assailant until the latter has been disarmed or disabled from carrying into effect his unlawful purpose; and this right of the defendant goes even to the extent, if necessary, of taking human life.”

    We have one of the best self defense laws in the country and were the first in the nation to enact Castle Doctrine, the "Make my day" law.
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 07-07-2011 at 11:02 AM.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Well, at least some of the mother's are not standing in front of cameras saying, "s/he is a good kid that just made one bad choice" article
    cheers - okboomer
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    Regular Member dukenukum's Avatar
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    I had far more fear of My dad than the cops. If that would have been me I would have had to turn myself in just to stay alive.

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    Careful, some heavy language used

    Why did the cops not help these people?


  21. #21
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Does anyone notice a trend in these "wilding" incidents?

    Almost ALL of them happen in either jurisdictions where carry is for all intents and purposes illegal (or at least HEAVILY restricted) like Chicago, NYC, and Philly, or in "Victim Disarmament Zones" like state fairs, malls that are posted, or near schools...

    Just sayin'...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    More like kill zones. I can't remember hearing about something like this happening here. We are also a stand your ground state. Washington also has one of the highest, if not the highest rate of CPL's (concealed pistol license) of any state in the union. To boot, OC is legal, and many do. I'd like to see them try to pull that sh*t here.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Though I posted about the mobs being composed of "children" it appears the trend is turning...parents turning in their kids and stuff.

    Still, it's very bad news that these mobs are happening. It lowers the level of respect for life (now we're shooting teens and it's actually justified). When they started charging children as 'adults', I cringed. (yes sometimes it's apropos).

    At any rate, it will get worse before it gets better (see Lord of the Files). We're on the path of 'dehumanizing' the human race (like we did in WWII).

    Finally, I just don't see a handgun (or any gun) as the solution to these. The cops need to act, and not stand back and let the civilians fend for themselves. Curfews, maybe, heavily enforced? Still, that's not good either, as it's going up the road to martial law tactics.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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  24. #24
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Probably the best I've read on self defense and written so laymen can understand. You don't always see that in acticles written by and for lawyers.

    Colorado holds that, if the defendant is not the initial aggressor or engaged in mutual combat, he “is not obliged to retreat or flee to save his life, but may stand his ground, and even, in some circumstances, pursue his assailant until the latter has been disarmed or disabled from carrying into effect his unlawful purpose; and this right of the defendant goes even to the extent, if necessary, of taking human life.”

    We have one of the best self defense laws in the country and were the first in the nation to enact Castle Doctrine, the "Make my day" law.
    The problem is, GS, you have to PROVE you were not the initial aggressor and hope they collected the evidence properly. You have to prove you didn't arm up in anticipation of the event (such as a rash of home invasions). I think people getting their CPL/CHL -recently- (to their using them) are at heightened risk for wrongful prosecution for this reason (which is a crock, I know).

    That's why I keep saying I'm determined not to use my HG in a fight. I use my HG (carry) to PREVENT me being in a fight (for my life). That's one reason I'm a strong supporter of OC-ing (even though I don't OC at present). It's a deterrent and the more people who do it, the more of a deterrent it is.

    $.02
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    If you are determined not to use your handgun in a self defense situation, then carrying it around is merely a form of aerobic exercise (carrying additional weight).

    While I hope that I am never forced to use mine for self defense, it is there just in case I am in fact faced with the need. I have already worked out the emotional and moral calculus about using it, and through discussions such as this try to keep abreast of the legal implications and restrictions.

    But if you are armed and all the indications are that you are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury and you refuse to use your handgun then several questions must be answered:
    1) why did you bother having a handgun with you at all?
    2) aren't you just carrying a handgun that your attacker is most likely to take from you after sucessfully attacking you?
    3) wouldn't you have been better off using the money you spent aquiring your handgun, obtaining training, buying and using practice ammunition and carry ammunition, and purchasing all the acoutrements that go with a handgun (holster, belt, etc), and your permit/license to pay the premiums on a life insurance policy so your survivors would have something besides expenses to remember you by?

    While having a handgun, even with the willingness to use it, is no guaranttee that you wull prevail in defending yourself, if I had to choose between the handgun and any other method of self defense (knife/ sword, stick, hand-to-hand/MMA, etc.) I'm putting my money on the handgun.

    stay safe.
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