wilding teen mobs

Does anyone notice a trend in these "wilding" incidents?

Almost ALL of them happen in either jurisdictions where carry is for all intents and purposes illegal (or at least HEAVILY restricted) like Chicago, NYC, and Philly, or in "Victim Disarmament Zones" like state fairs, malls that are posted, or near schools...

Just sayin'...

More like kill zones. I can't remember hearing about something like this happening here. We are also a stand your ground state. Washington also has one of the highest, if not the highest rate of CPL's (concealed pistol license) of any state in the union. To boot, OC is legal, and many do. I'd like to see them try to pull that sh*t here.

Though I posted about the mobs being composed of "children" it appears the trend is turning...parents turning in their kids and stuff.

Still, it's very bad news that these mobs are happening. It lowers the level of respect for life (now we're shooting teens and it's actually justified). When they started charging children as 'adults', I cringed. (yes sometimes it's apropos).

At any rate, it will get worse before it gets better (see Lord of the Files). We're on the path of 'dehumanizing' the human race (like we did in WWII).

Finally, I just don't see a handgun (or any gun) as the solution to these. The cops need to act, and not stand back and let the civilians fend for themselves. Curfews, maybe, heavily enforced? Still, that's not good either, as it's going up the road to martial law tactics.

Gunslinger said:

Probably the best I've read on self defense and written so laymen can understand. You don't always see that in acticles written by and for lawyers.

Colorado holds that, if the defendant is not the initial aggressor or engaged in mutual combat, he “is not obliged to retreat or flee to save his life, but may stand his ground, and even, in some circumstances, pursue his assailant until the latter has been disarmed or disabled from carrying into effect his unlawful purpose; and this right of the defendant goes even to the extent, if necessary, of taking human life.”

We have one of the best self defense laws in the country and were the first in the nation to enact Castle Doctrine, the "Make my day" law.

Click to expand...

The problem is, GS, you have to PROVE you were not the initial aggressor and hope they collected the evidence properly. You have to prove you didn't arm up in anticipation of the event (such as a rash of home invasions). I think people getting their CPL/CHL -recently- (to their using them) are at heightened risk for wrongful prosecution for this reason (which is a crock, I know).

That's why I keep saying I'm determined not to use my HG in a fight. I use my HG (carry) to PREVENT me being in a fight (for my life). That's one reason I'm a strong supporter of OC-ing (even though I don't OC at present). It's a deterrent and the more people who do it, the more of a deterrent it is.

$.02

If you are determined not to use your handgun in a self defense situation, then carrying it around is merely a form of aerobic exercise (carrying additional weight).

While I hope that I am never forced to use mine for self defense, it is there just in case I am in fact faced with the need. I have already worked out the emotional and moral calculus about using it, and through discussions such as this try to keep abreast of the legal implications and restrictions.

But if you are armed and all the indications are that you are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury and you refuse to use your handgun then several questions must be answered:
1) why did you bother having a handgun with you at all?
2) aren't you just carrying a handgun that your attacker is most likely to take from you after sucessfully attacking you?
3) wouldn't you have been better off using the money you spent aquiring your handgun, obtaining training, buying and using practice ammunition and carry ammunition, and purchasing all the acoutrements that go with a handgun (holster, belt, etc), and your permit/license to pay the premiums on a life insurance policy so your survivors would have something besides expenses to remember you by?

While having a handgun, even with the willingness to use it, is no guaranttee that you wull prevail in defending yourself, if I had to choose between the handgun and any other method of self defense (knife/ sword, stick, hand-to-hand/MMA, etc.) I'm putting my money on the handgun.

stay safe.

The people shown in the video in post #21 are hardly "children". Granted they are someone's children (hell, I'm my parents' child but they're both dead and I'm 65). The description of "children" and whether or not they're culpable when committing a crime escapes me. I well recall a murder in Florida of a tourist in a rest stop along route 10. The murderer was 13 years old. Personally, I would have rather seen him executed since his victim wound up just as dead as if the kid had been a 22 year old. The kid knew exactly what he was doing. Three weeks before that crime, my family and I stopped in that same rest stop for a short nap in the wee hours of the morning.

I agree with skid's post above. One makes a terrible mistake if they decide to carry a SD arm but are not of a mind to put it to use if the extreme ever happens to them. I am also am a firm believer in the fact that no one actually knows how they are going to react in an extreme situation until it is in their face like right now... unless they have had a similar experience(s) from which to draw upon. So I am not so foolish to say outright what exactly I might do in the event of such an attack. But skid is correct in his assessment.

Best thing to do is to try your darnedest to avoid any such situations as these wilding attacks. But if one is upon you suddenly, better to have an effective tool with you and the training and mindset to use it if you must. Your life is far more important then theirs and if they are of a mind to do you evil, the last thing you should be considering is their welfare.

SouthernBoy said:

The people shown in the video in post #21 are hardly "children". Granted they are someone's children (hell, I'm my parents' child but their both dead and I'm 65). The description of "children" and whether or not they're culpable when committing a crime escapes me. I well recall a murder in Florida of a tourist in a rest stop along route 10. The murderer was 13 years old. Personally, I would have rather seen him executed since his victim wound up just as dead as if the kid had been a 22 year old. The kid knew exactly what he was doing. Three weeks before that crime, my family and I stopped in that same rest stop for a short nap in the wee hours of the morning.

I agree with skid's post above. One makes a terrible mistake if they decide to carry a SD arm but are not of a mind to put it to use if the extreme ever happens to them. I am also am a firm believer in the fact that no one actually knows how they are going to react in an extreme situation until it is in their face like right now... unless they have had a similar experience(s) from which to draw upon. So I am not so foolish to say outright what exactly I might do in the event of such an attack. But skid is correct in his assessment.

Best thing to do is to try your darnedest to avoid any such situations as these wilding attacks. But if one is upon you suddenly, better to have an effective tool with you and the training and mindset to use it if you must. Your life is far more important then theirs and if they are of a mind to do you evil, the last thing you should be considering is their welfare.

Click to expand...

+ 1,000! Why carry the damn thing if you know you're not going to use it, even in an extreme situation where you need to? Leave it at home where it can't fall into criminal hands if you are attacked. Why even have a gun in the first place? I hope and pray that I never have to use mine, but I am a realist about the criminal element in our present society. I will not be a victim if I can help it; I carry it to defend my life if necessary. We cannot depend on the police now when we are attacked, either at home or out in society; why would we be able to depend on them in a wilding attack? If someone is attacking me, I don't care if they are 15 or 50, I cannot choose the age of my attacker; I hope I would respond the same to any threat to my life. I got my gun to protect myself, why would I not use it for that function when it becomes necessary???

A recent conversation went something like this:

Him: I see you're carrying a pistol. How many shots does that have, anyway? Nine? Ten?

Me: Sixteen, plus one in the chamber for seventeen total.

Him: Seventeen!

Me: Add the second magazine I usually carry and that brings the total to thirty-three rounds total.

Him: THIRTY-THREE!!! What in the world do you need thirty-three rounds for?

Me: Mobs, as when large groups of people devolve via dangerous mob dynamics.

Him: "Mob dynamics?"

Me: Yeah. That's when a group of people thinks and acts on the spur of the moment instead of taking time out to think as one.

Him: "Oh."

Me: "And because mobs are rather large, anytime I might encounter one, I bring two extra mags, for a total of sixty-five rounds.

Him: "Sixty-five rounds!!!"


Some people don't get it. It's never "when" that rational people plan for. It's "if." In all likelihood, I'll never be in a situation where I'll have to deal with a mob. On the off-hand chance I will, though, I carry enough to deal with the immediate issue. Beyond that, one's brains will do more good than more rounds.

If you don't believe me, read Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky." (1954)

There have been a number of these incidents taking place in various parts of the country and as several have pointed out without a crystal ball, you just don't know where, if, and when, one might pop up within an area where you might find yourself. We all know this so I am not going to preach to the choir. And we all have enough common sense and awareness to take the necessary measures to avoid places where such activity could arise. What I find curious is the folks who continue to wear their blinders in the face of such news.

We see and read about people getting attacked and beaten at fairs, carnivals, and similar family-oriented places where most would think they are safe and free to roam as they wish without fear of evil doings. Which makes them the perfect targets for those who are very much of a mind to do evil things. When you discuss these things with a neighbor or someone at a small diner, McDonald's, or such, there will always be those among them who will look at you like a deer in headlights or as though you are just short of falling off of your rocker. Until it hits close to home. People like this are not going to be turned by us to see reality until it is right in front of their face... which for a few, could be too late.

They can look at us with curiosity and you can bet a few will be thinking, "is that guy crazy"? But when a group of young toughs surround and attack them, then I have to wonder what might be going through their mind at that exact moment.

We are the industrious pig of the three little pigs. And it is entirely possible that the wolf is going to be at the door sooner than one may think. Things in this country are not going to get better any time soon which only feeds the tension and unrest of the beasts of prey. Best to ignore the other little pigs as they play and dream with the wolf watching and getting ever more close.

I have friends all around the Country and they all have one thing in common, a story of violent crime. These "mobs" who go out to do violence for the sake of violence is a growing problem. They know the law enforcement is under manned and overwhelmed. I will not comment on the RACIAL element involved, that is obvious. The fact is we are living in dangerous times. Our economy is falling apart and most Police budgets and manpower have been cut to the bone. We can no longer count on the Police to protect us and we must accept responsibility for our own safety. The sad part is we are just in the beginning of this. Things are going to get real bad before they get worst. This is why standing up for our rights is more important than ever.

Paul Coleman said:

I have friends all around the Country and they all have one thing in common, a story of violent crime. These "mobs" who go out to do violence for the sake of violence is a growing problem. They know the law enforcement is under manned and overwhelmed. I will not comment on the RACIAL element involved, that is obvious. The fact is we are living in dangerous times. Our economy is falling apart and most Police budgets and manpower have been cut to the bone. We can no longer count on the Police to protect us and we must accept responsibility for our own safety. The sad part is we are just in the beginning of this. Things are going to get real bad before they get worst. This is why standing up for our rights is more important than ever.

Click to expand...

First, welcome to OCDO.

There is no "racial" component to wlding/flashmob incidents except that the perpetrators and victims both belong to the human race. There are incidents of every ethnicity (except possibly green Martians) starting and being the victims of these events.

We never could count on the police to protect us, and SCOTUS has said so at least five different times. Go forth and read the bad news - heck there is not even a requirement forcing them to come and draw chalk lines around your corpse!

Knowing these things is usually what moves folks to decide to decide to become responsible for their self defense instead of waiting to see if the cops are going to show up, and show up in time to do anything to actually protect you from any crime. It's nice to see another person joining the ranks.

stay safe.

skidmark said:

If you are determined not to use your handgun in a self defense situation, then carrying it around is merely a form of aerobic exercise (carrying additional weight).

While having a handgun, even with the willingness to use it, is no guaranttee that you wull prevail in defending yourself, if I had to choose between the handgun and any other method of self defense (knife/ sword, stick, hand-to-hand/MMA, etc.) I'm putting my money on the handgun.

Click to expand...

My money is always going to be on the handgun too.

Always remember: never bring a knife to a gun fight.

I was trained in mob riot control back in the 60's, and will say that mob mentality is like a flock of pidgens, they seek protection from the falcon by trying to be flock, and not an individual, so they cannot be picked out individually.

Mobs have instigators, and followers. Careful observation will show who is who, and the instigator(s) will not always (not even usually) be the one(s) up front. If you are careful and take out the instigator(s), the mob will die.

A mob is kind of like a human body...you take out the brain, heart and/or lungs, the human will probably die. You take off a finger, you may still get thrashed.

SouthernBoy said:

....SNIP "We are the industrious pig of the three little pigs. And it is entirely possible that the wolf is going to be at the door sooner than one may think. Things in this country are not going to get better any time soon which only feeds the tension and unrest of the beasts of prey. Best to ignore the other little pigs as they play and dream with the wolf watching and getting ever more close."

Click to expand...

+10 I fear this very situation will become more common in the near future. As stated before the LEO's are pretty much over worked, under paid, and far too few in number to be of much use against such events. The reality is there is alot of people without jobs right now... not many jobs for them to take. Even in my area I am told even fast food places are no longer taking applications as they are getting overwhelmed.

On a side note a few made mention of (when defending against a mob) if a few are shot the mob will disperse. I am interested how you came to this conclusion. My understanding of mob mentality is a complete breakdown in cognitive thinking to the most basic of primal actions. I am not saying your wrong, but I wonder just how many would think that they outnumber you and overwhelm you. Then we have a gang of 50 kids who are now bloodthirsty and armed. Although I suspect having a few extra mags, or even a BUG(Dual wield?) might increase one chance of survival.

Regarding the legality of shooting teenage mobs... I dont think it would really be problem. Personally if I felt threatened I would draw my sidearm and shout that I am in fear for my life. Then give them orders to keep their distance. If they proceeded to advance then they are up the creek. I am outnumbered and since they are prolly in better physical shape(youth) fleeing is out of the question. Although a thought occured to me,,, would the first shot I fire be a warning shot? A shot to a teens kneecap? or double tapping center mass? Choices, Choices, Choices.

DevinWKuska said:

...a warning shot? A shot to a teens kneecap? or double tapping center mass?

Click to expand...

Choice #1 --- I'd say definitely NOT a warning shot.

Choice #2 --- kneecap...nope, you might miss.

Choice #3 --- be prepared to do just that if there is an imminent threat.

hermannr said:

Always remember: never bring a knife to a gun fight.

I was trained in mob riot control back in the 60's, and will say that mob mentality is like a flock of pidgens, they seek protection from the falcon by trying to be flock, and not an individual, so they cannot be picked out individually.

Mobs have instigators, and followers. Careful observation will show who is who, and the instigator(s) will not always (not even usually) be the one(s) up front. If you are careful and take out the instigator(s), the mob will die.

A mob is kind of like a human body...you take out the brain, heart and/or lungs, the human will probably die. You take off a finger, you may still get thrashed.

Click to expand...

I was trained in riot duty in more recent times, but the dynamics are indeed the same.
Only problem is, for the common folks NOT trained in riot/mob control, when one of these mobs spring up suddenly all around them, they'll be lucky to make out the Instigators from the rest,if at all.
Also, as you'd know, riot/mob control was never 1 or 2 individuals utilizing night-sticks and gas, but usually 24 or more forming a good, old-fashioned, 2-man wedge. Or, in really SHTF moments, going Testudo-mode and bugging out....

Some tough calls to make in these situations, legal/defensive and otherwise..makes for some interesting tactical training scenarios to begin working through (as opposed to 1 or 2 stationary paper targets at a range..)

::: Steps up on the soapbox:::

The problem is the kids parents. It is common place now for parents to want to be their childrens "friend". This mentality allows the kids to do as they please and there is little to no disapline. As an example a friend of mine is engauged to a woman who had a child prior to them getting together. He is 7 years old and they teach him in school that if mommy or daddy hit you in any way it's not ok and you need to tell a teacher. Now, before anyone does getting their panties in a bunch, I don't agree with beating the hell out of a kid or hitting just because you can. I do however believe that as a final resort a parent should be allowed to give their kids a whack on the rear. Happened to me when I was a kid and I can tell you it does make you respect your parents. It makes you think twice before you do something stupid and wrong cause you dont want that whack again.

::: steps back down:::

things like these are probably all of our worst nightmares. a violent mob, consisting of 20-100 people. all angry, none afraid of violence. and coming right at us. i mean honestly. what can one of us do against this? even if we draw and start firing at the mob approaching. is it going to stop the mob? . kind of like throwing a swiss army knife at a swarm of bee's. sure you might hit one or two , but can you hit all of them? what if defending yourself just angers them further. are they just going to beat you? or kill you for dropping a few of their friends in self defense? . honestly in a situation like this......i would just try to escape with myself and whoever was with me.

trying to stop any amount of attackers over 5 or 6...sadly to say can almost be concidered suicide.

hopefully none of us ever come up to a scenario like this. teens looting a store for pepsi and chips is one thing. thats usually over in under a minute. but a violent mob attack? i dont think any one person can fend that off by themselves

DevinWKuska said:

a few made mention of (when defending against a mob) if a few are shot the mob will disperse. I am interested how you came to this conclusion. My understanding of mob mentality is a complete breakdown in cognitive thinking to the most basic of primal actions.

Click to expand...

My reasoning:
Most people run fron gunfire.
Most people don't want to get hurt.
Those are pretty primal.
Seeing people in front of you getting shot & falling would probably make most people want to be elsewhere.
It might take a lot of pushing for them to get the mob around them to turn aside, or let them back away, but I think the people behind/next to the ones shot would do their best to save their own miserable skins.

how many would think that they outnumber you and overwhelm you.
Then we have a gang of 50 kids who are now bloodthirsty and armed.

Click to expand...

Unless they came with cartridges the pistol (they take from my warm dead hand) will be useless except as a bludgeon or threat.

would the first shot I fire be a warning shot? A shot to a teens kneecap? or double tapping center mass?

Click to expand...

1) definitely not - it shows you're not in fear for your life & wastes ammo
2) again, not deliberately... you might miss
3) best choice

carry for myself said:

a violent mob, consisting of 20-100 people. all angry, none afraid of violence. and coming right at us. what can one of us do against this? even if we draw and start firing at the mob approaching. is it going to stop the mob?

Click to expand...

See my reasoning above. I think it will stop them, or at least turn them away from hurting me, because they are indeed afraid of violence - the violence against them, violence they can't control.

what if defending yourself just angers them further. are they just going to beat you? or kill you for dropping a few of their friends in self defense? honestly in a situation like this, i would just try to escape with myself and whoever was with me.

Click to expand...

Being aware of surroundings & getting out of the way of an attack is always preferable.
Go sideways, esp. with a mob coming down the street at you.
But if we're talking about shooting, we've already determined that running away is not an option.
And so what if my shooting some of them angers them?
They were probably going to kill me anyway.
That's why I'm shooting, right?
This way, a few of them* are hurt in the process, & might never hurt anyone else.

trying to stop any amount of attackers over 5 or 6 sadly to say can almost be concidered suicide.

Click to expand...

And not fighting back would definitely be suicide, while not reducing their numbers at all.
I prefer to have a chance, or at the least take a few of them* with me.

*["A few"... my usual carry tool has 18 rounds before I have to reload, so there would probably be at least 4 or 5 attackers w/ 2 holes they didn't have a moment ago. Maybe more than that if they're really close (but the advantage might be offset by stress). And if I can reload, I'll have another 17 rounds, so another 4 attackers down.]

Here's another twist to throw in...
If they're close enough, do you take the head shot?
If yes, instead of, or just in addition to, a chest shot?
Yes, it shows you shot to kill, but it's also the best way to stop them right now.

Badger Johnson said:

Finally, I just don't see a handgun (or any gun) as the solution to these. The cops need to act, and not stand back and let the civilians fend for themselves. Curfews, maybe, heavily enforced? Still, that's not good either, as it's going up the road to martial law tactics.

Click to expand...

Peace must be maintained.

The People aren't allowed to keep tear gas, but how else do you disperse a crowd of 50 people? Pull a gun and the people who don't see it won't run. The people who do and say something scream "gun" and people get trampled because other people are alarmed.

"A person is smart. But people are dumb, panicky creatures and you know it." - Agent K, Men in Black.

Frankly, that's almost up into rifle territory.... When dealing with large wild animals, the gun often doesn't dissuade, but the bullets do.