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Thread: Red Robin Restaurant in Phoenix

  1. #1
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    Red Robin Restaurant in Phoenix

    So my wife and I went to a movie this past weekend and afterward we decided to go to the nearby Red Robin for a burger. I've carried in the restaurant several times but this time I noticed a sign stating No Guns. I was well covered and there would be no way for them to tell I was carrying my M&P 9c in a Crossbreed Supertuck underneath my oversized Hawiian shirt. Yes, I looked like a dork but it was 118 on Saturday and it was the coolest thing I had.

    Anyway, I feel it's worth continuing to carry even if a place has a sign. If I ever did get "caught" (and that's a big "IF"), I'm sure they would just ask me to leave, which I would and I'd never go back. What are the odds they'd call the cops on me? Let me say, this would be a 1 in a million situation because I'm well conceal.

    Thoughts?

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Just like we want people we want people to respect our right to carry we should respect their property rights. If they have a sign don't carry there. In fact don't even go there, send them a letter telling them why they lost your business. Plus, if they found out, you could be charged with trespassing.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member Phxbluesman's Avatar
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    Red Robin serves liquor A.R.S. 2 4-229

    Is thier singage in compliance with A.R.S. 2 4-229?

    Az law is very specific on how a business must post, the material it is made of etc.
    From AZ dept. of liquor http://www.azliquor.gov/assets/docum...rearms_faq.pdf
    The signs must meet the following standards to comply with A.R.S. §4-229(A) and(C)(posting of
    notice):
    • Contain a picture that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line
    across the firearm.
    • The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed
    in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound
    index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine
    inches and contain the words, "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED PURSUANT TO A.R.S. SECTION
    2 4-229". The letters comprising the words "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED" shall be at least
    three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a
    vertical inch.
    • Picture and text must fill a space which is a minimum of 6 x 9 inches.
    • The sign must be on white, laminated, 110 pound index paper.
    Where must the “NO FIREARMS ALLOWED” sign be posted?
    The sign which complies with Title 4 (please see details above in the section titled May I create my
    own “NO FIREARMS ALLOWED” sign?) must be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the
    general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.

    I have yet to see a place with signage that is compliance. Most are printed on 20lb paper in B&W, not laminated etc. I saw one that was in a nice picture frame,…Pei Wei has a reeel purdy one kinda like this one

    NYPD Pizza has a small one with a funny saying on it like Forget About It!!!
    A lot of these pretty plastic one even have A.R.S. SECTION 2 4-229
    Cue game show loser buzzer!!!!!
    My understanding is that if the signage is not in compliance than you may remain there with your concealed firearm.
    From NRA –ILA site http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=5155
    “It is important to note that posting the sign at the entrance of an establishment is not sufficient and one is legally protected to enter the premises and see if the sign is posted in the proper place next to the liquor license. If it is not, the establishment is not in compliance with the law and you may remain inside even if a sign is posted at the entrance. “

    From AZ daily star http://www.azdailysun.com/news/local/article_1d23c365-75d4-5c76-b977-5c62c61f45ba.html
    “Kiener also said that if a sign is not posted properly -- near the liquor license, on the correct paper, etc. -- a gun owner with a CCW permit may still legally enter the premises of an establishment.”

    The stature seems pretty clear to me…they use the words MUST meet the following standards not MAY meet.
    If somehow someone noticed and asked me to leave then I would but …concealed is concealed. I figure after another year or so many of these signs will have faded, fallen and be forgotten about since they obviously didn’t care enough to conform with the law in the first place.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Lokster's Avatar
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    It seems to me that you decided their burgers are more important than the fact that they couldn't care less about your safety or your right to defend yourself and/or family. IMO it doesn't matter what the motivation for having such a sign up is because the fact that it is up is a slap in the face to law abiding citizens. Obviously a criminal with a gun isn't going to turn around and find a new target simply because a "No Firearms" sign is posted, it is in fact a welcome sign for criminals. When you have a choice as to where to spend your hard earned dollars why would you prefer an establishment that has no respect for law abiding citizens, can their burgers really be that good?
    Last edited by Lokster; 07-05-2011 at 11:39 PM.

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    Regular Member Super Saiyan's Avatar
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    Go to Fuddruckers. Their food is better and they do not have any signs posted limiting your right to self-defense. At least not any of the locations I've been to...

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatnPhx View Post
    If I ever did get "caught" (and that's a big "IF"), I'm sure they would just ask me to leave, which I would and I'd never go back. What are the odds they'd call the cops on me? Let me say, this would be a 1 in a million situation because I'm well conceal.
    Just an FYI. Carrying "illegally" where alcohol is served is a Class 3 misdemeanor.

    It's not the same as carrying in other "posted" businesses where it's a trespassing issue.

    Like you said, how effective is a law that requires you to carry hidden from view, but makes it a violation to be caught? I've been chuckling about that irony since the bill was passed a few years back.

    Fred

  7. #7
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phxbluesman View Post
    My understanding is that if the signage is not in compliance than you may remain there with your concealed firearm.
    That's probably a discussion you'd wind up having in a courtroom with your expensive lawyer present as you're trying to get an acquittal (or more likely a plea deal) on the charges you were arrested for. It's not something I would recommend arguing about with the owner or the cop who shows up.

    However, regardless of the signage, the odds of you being arrested are miniscule since the law requires you to hide your pistol so that it can't be easily seen (i.e., "concealed").

    As an aside, one of AzCDL's goals is to restore the right to carry when dining out - for everyone.

    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 07-06-2011 at 12:03 PM.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokster View Post
    It seems to me that you decided their burgers are more important than the fact that they couldn't care less about your safety or your right to defend yourself and/or family. IMO it doesn't matter what the motivation for having such a sign up is because the fact that it is up is a slap in the face to law abiding citizens. Obviously a criminal with a gun isn't going to turn around and find a new target simply because a "No Firearms" sign is posted, it is in fact a welcome sign for criminals. When you have a choice as to where to spend your hard earned dollars why would you prefer an establishment that has no respect for law abiding citizens, can their burgers really be that good?
    (emphasis added)

    ^^^^^^ That.

  9. #9
    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Just like we want people we want people to respect our right to carry we should respect their property rights. If they have a sign don't carry there. In fact don't even go there, send them a letter telling them why they lost your business. Plus, if they found out, you could be charged with trespassing.
    Trespassing is an issue only for businesses where alcohol is not served, and is usually invoked when you refuse to leave.

    Violating the statutes in a place that serves booze is a Class 3 Misdemeanor. They don't have to ask you to leave first.

    Fred
    Last edited by azcdlfred; 07-06-2011 at 02:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokster View Post
    It seems to me that you decided their burgers are more important than the fact that they couldn't care less about your safety or your right to defend yourself and/or family. IMO it doesn't matter what the motivation for having such a sign up is because the fact that it is up is a slap in the face to law abiding citizens. Obviously a criminal with a gun isn't going to turn around and find a new target simply because a "No Firearms" sign is posted, it is in fact a welcome sign for criminals. When you have a choice as to where to spend your hard earned dollars why would you prefer an establishment that has no respect for law abiding citizens, can their burgers really be that good?
    I'm firmly in this ballpark as well.

    I really love how people think they're crafty or getting one over on these businesses by carrying there. It's as if they think they've won some game. All they've done is been (as stated above) slapped in the face, told that they aren't welcome there, and then they've 'punished' that business by giving them money.

    Pretty damn retarded if you ask me.

    If a business doesn't welcome me, then they don't deserve my money. Period.
    Last edited by Thoreau; 07-06-2011 at 07:26 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau View Post
    Pretty damn retarded if you ask me.
    Much like those who call for carrying a gun to be added to the 'protected classes' list. We WANT to know who the ******-bags are. Let them post their signs for all of us to see how deranged and hateful they are. We want to know. Let them show off their prejudice and arrogance so we know to deprive them of the money they think is more valuable than our lives.

    Now when they hang that sign out, tell the world how sick in the head they are, and you STILL give them your money... What's wrong with you man!?
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokster View Post
    When you have a choice as to where to spend your hard earned dollars why would you prefer an establishment that has no respect for law abiding citizens, can their burgers really be that good?
    Rather than be silent, why not let the business know?

    AzCDL gives away "No Guns = No Money" cards at our gun show tables.

    If you want to roll your own, templates are available at our Educational page. Scroll down to the bottom under the heading "Activism Tools."

    Fred

  13. #13
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post

    As an aside, one of AzCDL's goals is to restore the right to carry when dining out - for everyone.
    Please hurry, soon I might not be able to even carry in a fast food place.

    http://www.azcentral.com/business/co...beverages.html

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    Regular Member Phxbluesman's Avatar
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    Let's go something proactive

    I agree that whenever possible to take your business elsewhere but sometimes I am with other people who don't carry and it is not always fair to them to decide we have to go elsewhere plus my job takes me to bars and restaurants. It is in those instances that if the signage is non-compliant I treat it accordingly.

    I would like to suggest being proactive and rather than one person boycott here and a person there...perhaps we could select a particular business and schedule a OC dinner there. A group of a dozen or more wanting to spend money at a business might prompt a change with a store manager or regional manager. If they refuse our business then we go to a backup location and send copies of the receipt to them letting them know just how much money they just lost to a competitor and that we will add them to the list of non-friendly 2a businesses.
    Last edited by Phxbluesman; 07-07-2011 at 11:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    Please hurry, soon I might not be able to even carry in a fast food place.

    http://www.azcentral.com/business/co...beverages.html
    The only reason you can't carry into a place that serves alcohol is because the business chose to prohibit carry. Their choice. The same thing happens all the time in general with businesses putting up gunbuster signs. Why is it any different to you or me if alcohol is served?

    I don't care if it's risk of trespass (no alcohol), or criminal charge (alcohol served). If they want to prohibit firearms, I'm not wasting my money there. For more detail, see my previous post above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phxbluesman View Post
    I agree that whenever possible to take your business elsewhere but sometimes I am with other people who don't carry and it is not always fair to them to decide we have to go elsewhere plus my job takes me to bars and restaurants. It is in those instances that if the signage is non-compliant I treat it accordingly.

    I would like to suggest being proactive and rather than one person boycott here and a person there...perhaps we could select a particular business and schedule a OC dinner there. A group of a dozen or more wanting to spend money at a business might prompt a change with a store manager or regional manager. If they refuse our business then we go to a backup location and send copies of the receipt to them letting them know just how much money they just lost to a competitor and that we will add them to the list of non-friendly 2a businesses.
    OC dinners have been going on monthly in the Phoenix area (and probably in Tucson too) for ages. Arizonashooting.com's forum is usually where to find out about them. I think people used to cross post here, but not sure if they still do. Either way, they're alive and well.

    Problem with OC dinners is that you have to find a place that doesn't serve alcohol, and can accommodate groups. Those reasons are a large part of why OC dinners tend to be at Golden Corral and the occasional chinese restaurant. The choices become EXTREMELY numerous if you take out the no-alcohol requirement, but then you end up with a CC dinner instead. I think that's been done a few times. Kinda limited in impact.

    All of that aside, I think I see ideas like this posted pretty frequently, but that's where they all end. If you want to see it take off, you might need to be the one to make it happen.

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau View Post
    The only reason you can't carry into a place that serves alcohol is because the business chose to prohibit carry. Their choice. The same thing happens all the time in general with businesses putting up gunbuster signs. Why is it any different to you or me if alcohol is served?

    I don't care if it's risk of trespass (no alcohol), or criminal charge (alcohol served). If they want to prohibit firearms, I'm not wasting my money there. For more detail, see my previous post above.
    No, I can't carry there legally because I don't have a CWP. Even if the business allows carry the law requires a permit.

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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I tired of hearing this crap. Sixty years ago it was a private property owners "right" to keep people of out of their property just because they were the wrong color. That was only changed when people refused to accept it any more and went in anyway and stayed in. OC is no different. How do expect to change things by just accepting things as they are?
    I have a home in NE Phoenix. If I say you can't come in (for whatever reason.. you're carrying a gun, you're jewish, you're black, you're gay, you're (insert any other 'minority' here)) guess what, I can still do that. Private property is NOT yours to dictate.

    Business is under no obligation to appease your will either, nor should it be.

    As far as expecting to 'change things', I absolutely, positively do NOT want to chip away at private property rights. So in short, I don't. This isn't a problem in need of fixing.

    How about another example of what you might think is discrimination, and think the government should fix. I can't buy body armor from various local retailers because I'm not a cop or military. That isn't the law stopping me, it's the policies of the local retailers. Do I run around demanding a law that forces them to sell to me? Hell no. I buy elsewhere.

    If the above example isn't enough to help you realize that 'discrimination' still exists, and is legal, try checking out the Desert Ridge shopping center at Tatum and the 101. But don't do so if you're under 16, not with a parent, and it's after (I think) 8pm. Yup, age discrimination! Oh Noes! Let's make a law that forces the property owner to change that too!
    Last edited by Thoreau; 07-07-2011 at 11:39 PM.

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    Regular Member Phxbluesman's Avatar
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    For those that havent seen it.

    I think this story says it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    No, I can't carry there legally because I don't have a CWP. Even if the business allows carry the law requires a permit.
    Solid point. I tend to take it for granted that folks have the permit anyway, which is obviously not always the case. Luckily, AZCDL is always on the job, and hopefully continues to work to strengthen the recognition of our rights, and is able to eliminate the legal blockage to carrying openly in such places (and without a permit.) The law as it stands was a compromise just to get SOME progress on the matter, so I'm pretty sure that isn't a closed book.

    On the flip side, I know that my man-boobs could benefit from being forced out of a fast-food life, hehe.

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    Just an FYI

    My wife and I, after my *FINALLY* getting her carb dialed in on her motorcycle, took a toodle around the Prescott area last Wed. When we got to the square, we were both hungry, so we parked the bikes and went to the Palace on Whiskey Row (historic place, by the way).

    I actually hadn't been there in about, oh, 30 years so I asked the manager on duty what their policy on carrying concealed firearms was. Her response? She showed me her carry piece!

    Now, as far as I can tell all of the other bars/saloons/eateries on Whiskey Row are anti-firearm -- so if you're ever up here and want to eat a good meal on Whiskey Row (the food was *EXCELLENT*), then go to the Palace.

    That being said, I never knowingly patronize an anti-gun business. If I do, and find out after the fact, I make sure to let the company know *IN WRITING* why I'll never come back. Their policy on firearms is the only reason that my wife and I dropped our Costco membership, and went to Sam's Club. I can carry in there with no silliness.

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    Regular Member Phxbluesman's Avatar
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    Link to form letter for non friendly 2A businesses

    From what I found on other states boards is RR pretty much as a canned response whenever contacted regarding firearms restrictions. Maybe keeping it at the local resturaunt and district manager level might be the way to go. Either way I am trying to put my 2 cents in. Here is a form letter I am working on. Any suggestion would be welcomed
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-2A-businesses

  23. #23
    Regular Member Super Saiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV View Post
    My wife and I, after my *FINALLY* getting her carb dialed in on her motorcycle, took a toodle around the Prescott area last Wed. When we got to the square, we were both hungry, so we parked the bikes and went to the Palace on Whiskey Row (historic place, by the way).

    I actually hadn't been there in about, oh, 30 years so I asked the manager on duty what their policy on carrying concealed firearms was. Her response? She showed me her carry piece!

    Now, as far as I can tell all of the other bars/saloons/eateries on Whiskey Row are anti-firearm -- so if you're ever up here and want to eat a good meal on Whiskey Row (the food was *EXCELLENT*), then go to the Palace.

    That being said, I never knowingly patronize an anti-gun business. If I do, and find out after the fact, I make sure to let the company know *IN WRITING* why I'll never come back. Their policy on firearms is the only reason that my wife and I dropped our Costco membership, and went to Sam's Club. I can carry in there with no silliness.
    I also dropped my membership with Costco due to their no firearms policy and joined Sam's Club instead. I must say that I'm pleased with the change for many reasons.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Lokster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I tired of hearing this crap. Sixty years ago it was a private property owners "right" to keep people of out of their property just because they were the wrong color. That was only changed when people refused to accept it any more and went in anyway and stayed in. OC is no different. How do expect to change things by just accepting things as they are?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau View Post
    I have a home in NE Phoenix. If I say you can't come in (for whatever reason.. you're carrying a gun, you're jewish, you're black, you're gay, you're (insert any other 'minority' here)) guess what, I can still do that. Private property is NOT yours to dictate.

    Business is under no obligation to appease your will either, nor should it be.

    As far as expecting to 'change things', I absolutely, positively do NOT want to chip away at private property rights. So in short, I don't. This isn't a problem in need of fixing.

    How about another example of what you might think is discrimination, and think the government should fix. I can't buy body armor from various local retailers because I'm not a cop or military. That isn't the law stopping me, it's the policies of the local retailers. Do I run around demanding a law that forces them to sell to me? Hell no. I buy elsewhere.

    If the above example isn't enough to help you realize that 'discrimination' still exists, and is legal, try checking out the Desert Ridge shopping center at Tatum and the 101. But don't do so if you're under 16, not with a parent, and it's after (I think) 8pm. Yup, age discrimination! Oh Noes! Let's make a law that forces the property owner to change that too!

    Couldn't agree more, Thoreau.

    Gutshot, you really should try basing your morals on something more constant than the whims of the majority. In addition, bigsd offered a remedy and in no way suggested to simply accept the status quo.

  25. #25
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    http://www.asrpa.com/
    go to the above link and click on CCW cafe, it tells you who is PRO and who is Negative!
    HTH
    Bob

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