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Thread: AppleBees Gun Policy - No OC

  1. #1
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    AppleBees Gun Policy - No OC

    from Rick Dobbins RDobbins@appleamerican.com
    to m1gunr@gmail.com
    cc Bonney Lake <bonneylake@appleamerican.com>,
    Dave Mitzel <dmitzel@appleamerican.com>
    date Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 5:11 PM
    subject Incident at Bonney Lake Applebee's

    Dear Mr. Stark,
    My name is Rick Dobbins and I am an Area Director for Applebee’s restaurants. Until recently, I was in charge of the Applebee’s in Bonney Lake. I wanted to get back to you regarding your question about bringing your weapon into our Applebee’s. I think that there has been some errors in our communication with you. After reading your emails, it appears that you were told that you cannot bring your weapon in AT ALL into our restaurant. While it is illegal to bring it into our bar area, it is not illegal to bring a concealed weapon into the dining room. All that we ask is that it remains concealed, and is not visible to the other patrons. This could result in a situation where others might feel uncomfortable and decide to leave, which would hurt our business.

    I am not sure if this is what we communicated to you, but this is the position we would like to take on this. We would like to have you back as a customer, and I hope this is an acceptable mutual agreement. If you have any questions or comments, you can reach me at 253-381-6883.



    Rick Dobbins

    rdobbins@appleamerican.com

    <emphasis mine>

  2. #2
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I'd send him an email back saying he is going to lose business because you and other open carriers are not welcome.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I'd send him an email back saying he is going to lose business because you and other open carriers are not welcome.
    Or better yet....

    We schedule a lunch there and get 20 or so of us....
    After we order and meals are delivered and a few bite's of food are taken....
    20 CC guys all take off there jackets, get up and use the restroom, etc....
    Then nothing happens, we pay, we tip and we go home....
    Then also leave news articles of Starbuck's choice to allow OC and their record profits on the tables as we leave...

    Then an email is sent back to the DM, explaining what happened, how much money was spent and that the law was followed, no one was hurt, people were educated and if he would like that business from the 337,000 concealed pistol license's in the state of Washington he should reconsider his policy discriminating against a fundamental civil right.
    Last edited by gogodawgs; 07-06-2011 at 09:24 PM. Reason: added an idea stolen from the GreatWhiteLlama
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    Regular Member WinchesterModel12's Avatar
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    I was just in the Tacoma Applebees on 7-3-11 and had no issues with OC. I had several looks from staff but not a single word was said.
    If guns kill people......then all of mine are defective........ UNCLE TED

  5. #5
    Regular Member GreatWhiteLlama's Avatar
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    Did this guy not read anything regarding Starbucks allowing OC? Did he not read that SB's is making record profits?

    Perhaps a few links to newspaper articles regarding this so he has something concrete instead of his misguided opinion would help.

    Alienating gun owners would be much more detrimental to his business than the occasional soccer-mom that may happen to notice and walk out. There seems to be more and more of us everyday...
    "...our media are palace eunuchs gazing avidly at the harem of power and stroking their impotent pens in time to the rape of our liberties."
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  6. #6
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    All that we ask is that it remains concealed, and is not visible to the other patrons. This could result in a situation where others might feel uncomfortable and decide to leave, which would hurt our business.
    Don't you love this? Guys like this have such a bad case of Cranial Rectal Inversion that they don't even read what they type before they hit send.

    He doesn't realize that a person Open Carrying might just exercise the same option to leave only not for being made to feel uncomfortable, but because they were plainly made to feel unwelcome.

    Rather than just tell the "uncomfortable" customer that Open Carry is legal he would take the approach of running off the customer going about a legal right.

    What people in Washington State don't seem to realize that the default method of exercising your right to carry is Open Carry. To conceal requires a CPL but OC is available to all non-prohibited parties.

    Why is it that companies like Applebee's always seem to find fools like this guy to put in management positions?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Must be a local thing. I OC to the three Applebee's that I am close to and have never had a problem. Once I was with a group of friends, all of us carrying, and the manager told us we were welce back anytime and to bring more friends. I wonder if they have a corporate policy. Why would they be okay with CC instead of OC? At least with OC, you know I have a gun. Some people have no sense.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  8. #8
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Some people have no sense.
    And apparently these are the ones that Applebee's promotes to District Manager.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    This guy doesn't represent Applebees. He represents Apple American Group http://www.appleamerican.com/ which is an Applebees franchisor. His statements only apply to Applebees run by Apple American Group.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by New Daddy View Post
    This guy doesn't represent Applebees. He represents Apple American Group http://www.appleamerican.com/ which is an Applebees franchisor. His statements only apply to Applebees run by Apple American Group.
    That makes more sense (only very slightly.) Stupid franchises.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member Squeak's Avatar
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    I've OC'd in Silverdale a few times with no problem. Well, only one: the waitress preferred a .380 rather than my 9mm. Snotty women!

  12. #12
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    It's private property and they have their rules. I for one will continue to carry in a lawful manner and should that manner cause me to be asked to leave, then so be it.

  13. #13
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    My response to Rick.............


    Rick,
    In Washington state one does not need a concealed license to openly carry a firearm and to conceal the firearm without said license would be illegal. So what do I do in that instance?

    Rick as an area manager, what areas do you cover in western Washington? Three times a month my family and I eat at Applebees, now $300 is not a lot in a monthly take for a restaurant but you multiply that with the many Open Carriers across Washington and it adds up to a considerable amount. Do you realize that when Starbucks said that they will follow the law on firearms their business profits skyrocketed? As a State Researcher for Open Carry Washington, I write many letters and make lots of telephone calls to businesses. I have corporate letterhead and email from many business and national chains that tell me they simply comply with state law. I would hope that you take a hard look at your policy and simply do the same.

    Look, Applebees is a private business an as such, you guys can make the rules on who you allow entrance. You talk about how others "feel" but I can't tell you the amount of times I have been seated next to a family with a small child or infant crying & screaming or parked next to a loud group ruining my meal experience. Did I leave or complain? No, Why? Because is a public place and you are bound to run into all kinds of people. Open Carry of firearms is not going away Rick, it's one of those things that people are going to have to get use to. There was an instance in Kennesaw Georgia where two Open Carriers were eating at a diner, a police officer rolled through the parking lot and saw a suspicious vehicle. Upon further inspection it was 2 cars and several guys with masks and weapons. When asked what they were doing, one guy told the cop, "we were waiting for the guys with the guns to leave." (http://www.opencarryradio.com/?p=520)

    I posted your email to the Open Carry site (www.opencarrywashington.com) to let my fellow carriers know of your rules. Many are upset, many will no longer visit Applebees, so to save some hurt feelings of your non-gun patrons, you lost just as many pro-gun folks.

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    So, there is no "no firearms" posting anywhere in the restaurant or on the door, so I open carry. Halfway through my meal, a manager tells me I have to conceal my firearm or leave my firearm in the car. I explain that since I am doing nothing illegal, and since there was no "no firearms" signs posted as a condition of entry, I will just be leaving.

    Am I obligated, legally, to pay for the meal? I don't think I would be since they changed the conditions of service AFTER they served me.
    Navy....signs have no force of law in Washington. Regardless of a sign you would have that obligation unless you have on audio an agreement from the manager.

    Personally I would pay exactly the amount and leave.
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  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I no the signs have no legal weight. If there are NO signs, and they serve me open carrying, then halfway through the meal they tell me I have to cover my firearm.... why would I be obligated to pay for the meal when THEY changed the conditions of service AFTER they served me?
    Because we are better than they are....write a letter after and demand our money back. It is more impressionable when they have to respond after the fact.
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  16. #16
    Regular Member GreatWhiteLlama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I no the signs have no legal weight. If there are NO signs, and they serve me open carrying, then halfway through the meal they tell me I have to cover my firearm.... why would I be obligated to pay for the meal when THEY changed the conditions of service AFTER they served me?
    Interesting question. My google-foo is weak tonight so I'm unable to pull any sites or RCW's, but previous conversations regarding being asked to leave and not immediately complying, you run the risk of trespass. I cannot imagine any charges being able to stick for NOT paying for services that were NOT rendered.

    I think a more complicated situation would be for a restaurant that you had to prepay for your food and then being asked to leave.

    I'm glad that in all of my years of OC'ing that I haven't had to deal with this

    :P
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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Or better yet....

    We schedule a lunch there and get 20 or so of us....
    After we order and meals are delivered and a few bite's of food are taken....
    20 CC guys all take off there jackets, get up and use the restroom, etc....
    Then nothing happens, we pay, we tip and we go home....
    Then also leave news articles of Starbuck's choice to allow OC and their record profits on the tables as we leave...

    Then an email is sent back to the DM, explaining what happened, how much money was spent and that the law was followed, no one was hurt, people were educated and if he would like that business from the 337,000 concealed pistol license's in the state of Washington he should reconsider his policy discriminating against a fundamental civil right.
    This sounds like one of the smartest things to do, but with way more than 20. Everyone order The steak.

    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    It's private property and they have their rules. I for one will continue to carry in a lawful manner and should that manner cause me to be asked to leave, then so be it.
    +1. I have not had any problems in Applebees.
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    Regular Member 1911er's Avatar
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    applebees

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Must be a local thing. I OC to the three Applebee's that I am close to and have never had a problem. Once I was with a group of friends, all of us carrying, and the manager told us we were welce back anytime and to bring more friends. I wonder if they have a corporate policy. Why would they be okay with CC instead of OC? At least with OC, you know I have a gun. Some people have no sense.
    witch applebees told you to come back and bring freinds Im getting hungry for applebees
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911er View Post
    witch applebees told you to come back and bring freinds Im getting hungry for applebees
    Well, I live in Virginia, but if you want to make the drive I'll buy you lunch.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Why do we go round and round with this tomfoolerly again and again? If a business doesn't want me in thier establishment then they don't get my dollars, its that simple. But the guy wasn't disarming you per sey, he was asking you to cover up. Some of the more purist on this board might see that as an infringement. Personally, I would leave others might see it as a compromise. You still get to defend yourself and they get to serve you crappy food.
    If the manager cannot use Starbucks as a template for success then LET THEM FAIL. Is the food at Applebees really that great whereby you are bending overbackwards pleading for them to take your money? How about we concentrate on establishments that are neutral (Starbucks) or ones that have gone above and beyond? And in that way let it serve as a warning to businesses that are concerned about what someone might thing as opposed to OC proponents walking out. Come on guys its the same scenario over and over again:

    OP: "I was banned from Establishment X!!"
    Follow up#1:"I have gone there many times and no problem"
    Follow up#2: "Did they have a sign posted?"
    Follow up#3: "They dont have to. But is it a store policy or a corporate policy?"
    OP: "This is the email I wrote the company today...."
    Follow up#4: "How dare they violate our rights!"
    Follow up#5: "They are a PRIVATE organization not a government entity"
    Follow up#6: "Why don't we have an OC meet up this Saturday at establishment X??!!"



    And on and on and on.............................................fel las, We claim to be a freedom loving cohort, correct? Then don't display selective indignation when a PRIVATE ESTABLISHMENT wants to practice the freedom of choice. Government bodies,parks, etc are a different story altogether and I am 100% in the tank with you on that one for in that one there is no room for choice.

  21. #21
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post

    And on and on and on.............................................fel las, We claim to be a freedom loving cohort, correct? Then don't display selective indignation when a PRIVATE ESTABLISHMENT wants to practice the freedom of choice. Government bodies,parks, etc are a different story altogether and I am 100% in the tank with you on that one for in that one there is no room for choice.
    Then let them be consistent. The person suggested that the openly carried firearm made others feel uncomfortable. Then let them be more proactive in addressing unruly or noisy children, those with incredibly bad Body Odor, or those elderly ladies that wear perfume that curls your nose hairs and makes your meal taste like the Cosmetic's Bar in a Department Store. Let's not forget those that can make a whole paragraph out of the "F-Word" when talking to their friends at the bar and doing so at max volume. Rather than only accommodating those who are made uncomfortable by the sight of a firearm, they need address these other issues equally.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Then let them be consistent. The person suggested that the openly carried firearm made others feel uncomfortable. Then let them be more proactive in addressing unruly or noisy children, those with incredibly bad Body Odor, or those elderly ladies that wear perfume that curls your nose hairs and makes your meal taste like the Cosmetic's Bar in a Department Store. Let's not forget those that can make a whole paragraph out of the "F-Word" when talking to their friends at the bar and doing so at max volume. Rather than only accommodating those who are made uncomfortable by the sight of a firearm, they need address these other issues equally.
    You won't get a disagreement with me there. But there are several variables to consider: 1) Did someone actually tell the manager that they feel "uncomftorable" or was that his assumption. 2) Has anybody lodged a complaint on the several offenses you stated and what was done?
    But the BLUF remains is that they are a private business and I am not going to force them to take my money and as an organization niether should we.

  23. #23
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Something I've been mulling over...

    If the 2A has been incorporated in the 14th Amendment and the intent of the 14th was the protection of ALL rights, then why can I be kicked out of a place because of my firearm? If race is protected class, why not the 2A?

  24. #24
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    If race is protected class, why not the 2A?
    I've always though it's because of the difference between civil and constitutional rights. Civil rights are granted by the state to people: black people can't be kicked out of private property because they are black because of a law passed saying such. It's only black's right not to be kicked out because the government said so, and the government could change that law at any time, modifying or removing that civil right.

    Constitutional rights (2A) only restrict the actions of government against people. Have nothing to do with the interactions of private parties.

    Constitutional rights are not civil rights - civil rights are not constitutional rights.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    Something I've been mulling over...

    If the 2A has been incorporated in the 14th Amendment and the intent of the 14th was the protection of ALL rights, then why can I be kicked out of a place because of my firearm? If race is protected class, why not the 2A?

    Good question. I would say that all "rights" have "restrictions". The closest example I can provide is that a movie theater can throw you out for speaking through a movie if your fellow patrons air thier grieviances to the management. I dont know how that could EXACTLY paralelle (sp) to the Applebees but I guess if enough patrons voiced thier uncomfortable disposition to your firearm then perhaps management is compelled to act. Anybody?

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