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Thread: Man Shoots Himself with his Kimber on Video

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    Man Shoots Himself with his Kimber on Video


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    Ow, ow, ow, ow!

    Thanks for the briefing, Tex. We'll know what to be careful about.

    (I vaguely recall IDPA or perhaps another sporting group banned retention holsters with a release at the trigger position. Maybe this isn't the first time this has happened?)

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    Good on him for posting the vid. He practices to save lives, then immediately after shooting himself, he put his finger along the slide, safetied the weapon, kept it pointed in a safe direction, set it down, and applied the proper medical treatment.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Ow, ow, ow, ow!

    Thanks for the briefing, Tex. We'll know what to be careful about.

    (I vaguely recall IDPA or perhaps another sporting group banned retention holsters with a release at the trigger position. Maybe this isn't the first time this has happened?)
    It looked like a Blackhawk Serpa. He should have kept his thumb the hell away, obviously, as you don't push a 1911 safety down until the pistol is completely clear of the holster and then enter the trigger guard with your finger. Freak thing. When carrying my 1911s or Hi-Powers, I use Kydex, Fobus or Blade-tech holsters with only friction retention. My thumb is straight out behind the slide safety until I'm ready to press it down. Glad to see he wasn't talking about some product liability action against Blackhawk. For those using that type of holster, good lesson. I'll stick with open or a strap retention, personally.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    He could have been killed, if the round would have severed the femeral artery.. Lucky guy.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Good on him for posting the vid. He practices to save lives, then immediately after shooting himself, he put his finger along the slide, safetied the weapon, kept it pointed in a safe direction, set it down, and applied the proper medical treatment.
    It was good that he posted the vid, for maybe this will be a good lesson for us all.

    If the fellow would have kept his trigger finger along the slide while withdrawing the handgun, this would have never happened.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    There is already a LONG thread on this topic...

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-SERPA-holster
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link. Not the holster's fault, clearly, but his for forgetting what he was carrying and in what type of holster. I still prefer my open, kydex types but won't knock Blackhawk! for his error. Seems like a good guy and I'm glad he came out ok.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Nobody needs to knock blacKhawk because that isn't even the holster he was using. He was using a 5.11 thumbdrive holster, where you use your thumb to disengage the retention feature instead of your trigger finger like on blackhawk serpas. He mistakenly inactivated his safety and thought he had hit his retention feature. However it has nothing to due with holsters likebit does practicing the 4 basic rules for firearms. Never put your finger in the triggerguard until you are on target and committed to taking a shot.

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    Regular Member ARADCOM's Avatar
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    Thumbs down You are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Nobody needs to knock blacKhawk because that isn't even the holster he was using. He was using a 5.11 thumbdrive holster, where you use your thumb to disengage the retention feature instead of your trigger finger like on blackhawk serpas. He mistakenly inactivated his safety and thought he had hit his retention feature. However it has nothing to due with holsters likebit does practicing the 4 basic rules for firearms. Never put your finger in the triggerguard until you are on target and committed to taking a shot.

    I think maybe you need to watch the video and listen to what the man says.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Nobody needs to knock blacKhawk because that isn't even the holster he was using. He was using a 5.11 thumbdrive holster, where you use your thumb to disengage the retention feature instead of your trigger finger like on blackhawk serpas. He mistakenly inactivated his safety and thought he had hit his retention feature. However it has nothing to due with holsters likebit does practicing the 4 basic rules for firearms. Never put your finger in the triggerguard until you are on target and committed to taking a shot.
    He used that with his Glock. The 1911 had a BH Serpa. His trigger finger slipping off the lock was the problem.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    He used that with his Glock. The 1911 had a BH Serpa. His trigger finger slipping off the lock was the problem.

    No, he used improper technique on the Serpa release button--THAT was the problem. He tried to pull the gun out BEFORE disengaging the release button, and then curled his finger, and pressed hard with the tip of his finger, rather than keeping his finger straight, and sliding it up the holster, which will ALWAYS put your finger along the side of your gun's frame.

    When you hook your finger, and engage the release AFTER you've started you end up using a LOT of pressure to disengage the release, and then when it lets go suddenly, the gun sort of jumps out of the holster and your hooked finger has a lot of pressure on it, and will almost ALWAYS go into the trigger guard.

    Bad training, bad technique, and just all-around thoughtlessness in handling his equipment properly...

    This is the MAIN problem with using different kinds of holsters--overcoming the muscle memory for one retention mechanism when you switch to another platform. And the fact of the matter is that the Serpa and the Safariland are SOOOO different in their release technique that what is 100% proper for one can cause catastrophic ND fails with the other if you get them confused...

    If you have several guns, settle on ONE type of retention holster and stick with it across the board.

    Switching guns poses enough problems with the variables in the "manual of arms" from gun to gun. Changing the operational procedures for multiple holsters is just adding one more VERY important (and potentially dangerous) variable to an already complex situation.

    Both holsters are VERY good designs--but they are pretty much EXACTLY opposite in the way they work, and getting these two holster styles confused can be VERY dangerous, as we've seen in this video.

    This ND was 100% Operator Error and could have been avoided. Period. End of discussion...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    +1. I have always carried in a blackhawk. Couldnt afford a hundred dollar holster, and didnt want a 15 dollar one.

    ETA. I also have a blackhawk mounted in each of my cars, always the same motion, whether in the camaro, the festiva, on the hip, or on the leg drop.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 07-10-2011 at 04:54 PM.

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    Ouch is right! Good video for instruction purposes!

    As it is, the discussion about the differences between the retention holsters is what I am replying to. I use a Safari retention with the thumb break on a duty belt when taking tactical pistol classes. When taking my executive protection class I use the elcheapo uncle mikes nylon holster on my leather belt without the thumb break retention strap. Then, one day during a tactical class one of the other students wanted to try my rig, so we changed. Yep, the other student had the BlackHawk retention holster and they were using a BRAND NEW OUT OF THE BOX THAT MORNING glock (outdoor range so instructor didn't mind). After familiarizing myself with the operation of the holster, we then shot another relay and I truely didn't have any problem using that rig nor switching back to my own rig/Kimber UCII. Actually, I had more trouble with the difference in cadence between the three instructors

    I realize some folks just simply don't have the resources to acquire a wide variety of weapons/accessories, but if you have friends with other makes/models, try theirs out. The more variety in weapons/accessories you are familiar with, the wider range of resources you can make use of.

    Instructor liked to tell the story of when he first use the CZ75 which was while doing some contract work in (Eurpoean country) and the locals provided him with one. He loved the gun and used it during several operations until it took a riccochet which fouled the action while in the holster. The only other weapon available was a Makarov. As he said, luckily he had used a Makarov before and was able to change over without a problem.

    Now, will we as LAC encounter a scenario in which our weapon is unfunctional/out of ammo and another weapon just happens to be lying nearby that can be used? Probably not unless the zombies are marching up the road, but WHAT IF?

    If you have more than one gun and more than one holster system, rather than favor one over the other, practice to become competent/confident in the handling and use of both.

    As the video indicates, it is probably a good idea to practice with an unloaded weapon until you can determine by feel alone which holster you are using. Train the hands, so the brain can decide what to do and when to do it.
    cheers - okboomer
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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    No, he used improper technique on the Serpa release button--THAT was the problem. He tried to pull the gun out BEFORE disengaging the release button, and then curled his finger, and pressed hard with the tip of his finger, rather than keeping his finger straight, and sliding it up the holster, which will ALWAYS put your finger along the side of your gun's frame.

    When you hook your finger, and engage the release AFTER you've started you end up using a LOT of pressure to disengage the release, and then when it lets go suddenly, the gun sort of jumps out of the holster and your hooked finger has a lot of pressure on it, and will almost ALWAYS go into the trigger guard.

    Bad training, bad technique, and just all-around thoughtlessness in handling his equipment properly...

    This is the MAIN problem with using different kinds of holsters--overcoming the muscle memory for one retention mechanism when you switch to another platform. And the fact of the matter is that the Serpa and the Safariland are SOOOO different in their release technique that what is 100% proper for one can cause catastrophic ND fails with the other if you get them confused...

    If you have several guns, settle on ONE type of retention holster and stick with it across the board.

    Switching guns poses enough problems with the variables in the "manual of arms" from gun to gun. Changing the operational procedures for multiple holsters is just adding one more VERY important (and potentially dangerous) variable to an already complex situation.

    Both holsters are VERY good designs--but they are pretty much EXACTLY opposite in the way they work, and getting these two holster styles confused can be VERY dangerous, as we've seen in this video.

    This ND was 100% Operator Error and could have been avoided. Period. End of discussion...
    I'm trying to figure out how your first sentence and my post differed. His finger slipped, due to excessive pressure, off the locking (retention) mechanism of the holster and then curled into the trigger guard with further excessive pressure setting off the round. Evidently, he used the tip of his finger rather than the pad to press the lever, hence his finger was curled, not straight as it should be with 'any' draw from a strong side holster.
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 07-12-2011 at 12:46 PM.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    It wasnt an excessive pressure problem. You can use all the strength in your hands on the release, and your finger wont go to the trigger, but if you press the release like it was a button, or a keystroke, then it will go to the trigger whether you tap it gingerly, or aggressively.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Excuses, excuses! Thanks Tex, I had a good laugh.

    He relied on his proper training and called Mom first
    Boys and girls please call 911 1st.

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    And there you have the video proof folks: Sympathetic grip of the fingers.
    Finger out of the trigger guard until on-target. Yes, I'm aware that it looks like someone trained in poor fashion, but the sympathetic grip of the fingers looks nearly identical in this type of situation. He even admits that the 5.11 thumb-drive holster's release is in the same position as the 1911 thumb safety...yikes! Switched holsters and blammo with the Serpa, didn't help he used the digital tip to release instead of the pad of the finger.

    For those who just went what the heck is sympathetic grip, I'll explain it. Keep in mind, I'm not a physiology major or expert. This is something that myself and others have identified visually when using firearms.

    Typically when the hand is closed to a fist, all of the fingers are sympathetic to one another in that they will all attempt to curl into that fist or grip. Thus when a firearm is gripped to unholster, the index finger will want to perform the same task as the other fingers....curl. The only location it can go is directly into the trigger guard.

    I had to witness and employ First Aid for a similar situation. XD, Serpa holster, frangible ammo. Fortunately it was point-blank which didn't give the ammo a chance to function as designed. Through-and-through on the right buttock. 20 minutes of my life that will forever be etched into my brain.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 07-14-2011 at 12:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Excuses, excuses! Thanks Tex, I had a good laugh.

    He relied on his proper training and called Mom first
    Boys and girls please call 911 1st.
    And give your LOCATION straight away. That way if the call gets dropped they can still dispatch to you.

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    or if you pass out.

    ETA. the first thing out of your mouth should be the adress.

    911 --> "911 whats your emergency"?

    you --> "123 Main ST. Anytown USA"

    Then say what happened.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 07-12-2011 at 02:49 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Excuses, excuses! Thanks Tex, I had a good laugh.

    He relied on his proper training and called Mom first
    I didn't even notice that the first time I watched the video, he probably got grounded...lol
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Then say what happened.
    Operator oz playin that there I’m a Texas Ranger game and dam nr shot me leg off, I done called momma but she called me a dang fool and hung up, can you help me? Should I do like that northern boy and hippie dude on that there dual survival TV show and light some gun powder on those two leg bleeders?

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    Galco Holsters and Condition 1 Carry

    I also have a Kimber Pro Carry II and bought several holsters for it.

    One holster is a Galco shoulder rig: an old discontinued Black Widow that I found on the back shelf of a gun store. The retention strap can be moved around to allow for Condition 3 or Condition 1 carry and the pistol can be easily drawn.

    Another Galco holster has no retention strap and the pistol can be carried easily in Condition 1

    The third Galco holster is the "Fletch" model with a retention strap. I like it when riding on my motorcycle. The strap can be bent around so that is works with Condition 3 or Condition 1 carry...BUT...

    When I practiced drawing (unloaded) from Condition 1, the configuration of the holster somehow released the thumb safety. No matter what I tried, the thumb safety would not stay on when drawing the pistol.

    I showed it to my neighbor who is an LEO...who loves 1911s and would prefer carry one (only if it were in Condition 1)...and he said that it would be problematic.

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    Excellent lesson.

    He's a good man, Tex.

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    Regular Member Phxbluesman's Avatar
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    Made me think twice about changing holster

    I came across this video while searching for a retention holster for my Kimber UCII. I have been using a crossbreed super tuck for CC and a fobius paddle for OC. I was considering a getting one with a retention system but after seeing and reading I decided to just stay with the same holster type I have been training with all this time. My only reason for considering a new one was for weapon retention in the event someone tried to grab my gun. I tried the Blackhawk at the store and I have to admit it felt REALLY strange using my trigger finger for anything else than pulling the trigger. Luckily for me and me and my wallet they didn't have one specifically for my Kimber UCII (tried the one for the Colt commander) so I passed, otherwise I might have bought it.

    My thoughts are that for me carrying a 1911 style... any holster that uses my trigger finger OR my thumb (saftey) for anything else than those two extremely important and separate jobs is not a holster for me. I prefer to keep those dedicated to one task each.

    I did the unloaded upside down shake test with the Fobius and it took some really hard shaking to get my pistol to come out, so I am happy with the friction retention for keeping it holstered during regular activity. As far as someone grabbing my gun, the cant on the fobius makes it difficult to draw from any other angle than from the wearers. I know there are some push to draw systems (PDS). I might consider one of those types.

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