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Thread: What does, "secured" mean, in the concealed-weapon statute?

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    What does, "secured" mean, in the concealed-weapon statute?

    Here's a short memo I filed recently in a case that involved precisely that issue.
    The Commonwealth's Attorney moved the Court to nolle pros. the case
    (dismissal without prejudice), which was granted. The client gets his gun back.

    http://virginialegaldefense.com/Stuf...ed_defined.pdf
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member altajava's Avatar
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    Interesting read, can't wait to hear novacops opinion on this.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Good work! It is good to know that Virginia law does not dictate that secured means locked. Thanks.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    First, I find it interesting that your memo did not make any reference to the fact that the bill that changed the code to allow for "secured in a container" was specifically changed by the Governor from "locked" to "secured" (and sent back for subsequent approval), which would seem to be the clearest of all indicators that the General Assembly did not mean "locked".

    Second... I can't resist posting this old joke... Forgive me for straying off topic just a bit...

    TFred

    What does the term "secure" mean to a military organization? It all depends on which branch!

    When directed to Secure a building:

    The Army will post guards around the place.
    The Navy will turn out the lights and lock the doors.
    The Marines will kill everybody inside and set up a headquarters
    The Air Force will take out a 5 year lease with an option to buy.
    Last edited by TFred; 07-07-2011 at 12:48 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    If you are at liberty to share... are you saying that someone was arrested and charged for violating the Concealed Handgun law because they had not "locked" the gun in a container inside a car?

    TFred

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Good job, User. Your memo certainly rebuffs the claim that "secured" means "locked". I'm guessing that the next round will entail using your examples to show what "secured in a container or compartment" means.

    18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.

    For example, if I remove my holstered HG from my belt and place it in the glove compartment as is, the entire package can still move around, and would not be "secured" because there is no restraining device attached to both the holster and the container which would restrict movement within the glove compartment, even though the gun cannot move within the holster. Now if I had a holster fastened inside the glove compartment and inserted the HG into it, then the gun would be "secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle". As a practical matter, the glove compartment in my wife's car is fairly full, leaving little room for my holstered HG to move around, so in this case, I'd claim it's secured. Also, when the vehicle is parked, there's little possibility of motion.

    Now, if I put the holstered HG into an empty briefcase, or I put the HG into a holster attached inside the briefcase, then leave the briefcase on the seat...
    Last edited by 2a4all; 07-07-2011 at 01:16 PM.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Interesting read.
    A firearm in a holster that will not allow it to fall out (drop out without pulling) should satisfy the secured requirement especially if it on the belt.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    If you are at liberty to share... are you saying that someone was arrested and charged for violating the Concealed Handgun law because they had not "locked" the gun in a container inside a car?

    TFred
    User mentioned this case a while back TFred.
    User will give details I hope but from memory it was in a factory case inside a backpack stored behind a truck seat...Something like that.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I'm interested in one thing Dan.

    When this bill passed it said "Locked".
    McDonnell didn't sign it, he sent it back asking they change it to "secured".
    They did and sent it back to McDonnell who then signed it.

    Legislative is rarely clear in Va but in this case it is clear that the GA did NOT mean locked after the revision.

    Is there a reason you didn't point that out or did it just slip by?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by altajava View Post
    interesting read, can't wait to hear novacops opinion on this.
    please don't wish for unpleasant things!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'm interested in one thing Dan.

    When this bill passed it said "Locked".
    McDonnell didn't sign it, he sent it back asking they change it to "secured".
    They did and sent it back to McDonnell who then signed it.

    Legislative is rarely clear in Va but in this case it is clear that the GA did NOT mean locked after the revision.

    Is there a reason you didn't point that out or did it just slip by?
    Ha ha, that's the exact same thing I asked (although with fewer words) in my first post!

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Ha ha, that's the exact same thing I asked (although with fewer words) in my first post!

    TFred
    Sorry... I'm fighting a problem clip in after effects and flipping between it and this page while the video renders

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Sorry... I'm fighting a problem clip in after effects and flipping between it and this page while the video renders
    I wasn't complaining... great minds and all...

    TFred

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Fall out? That would be bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent19 View Post
    Interesting read.
    A firearm in a holster that will not allow it to fall out (drop out without pulling) should satisfy the secured requirement especially if it on the belt.
    Kids are taught in (public) schools to respect the police; after all, they make great role models.

    They set a good example, usually. Kids are taught to learn from cops; they know what they're doing.

    Here is an example of a police-secured weapon:



    Um, this would never happen in Virginia, right?

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    if I remove my holstered HG from my belt and place it in the glove compartment as is, the entire package can still move around, and would not be "secured" because there is no restraining device attached to both the holster and the container which would restrict movement within the glove compartment,
    It is indeed "secured" in that it cannot leave the compartment on its own. Read user's posted pdf, especially the example of the child seat. The child is indeed free to move within the confines of his seat in which he is secured, he is just not able to leave those confines unassisted. Secured need not mean "immobilized".
    Last edited by zoom6zoom; 07-07-2011 at 04:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    First, I find it interesting that your memo did not make any reference to the fact that the bill that changed the code to allow for "secured in a container" was specifically changed by the Governor from "locked" to "secured" (and sent back for subsequent approval), which would seem to be the clearest of all indicators that the General Assembly did not mean "locked"....
    and,

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'm interested in one thing Dan.

    When this bill passed it said "Locked".
    McDonnell didn't sign it, he sent it back asking they change it to "secured".
    They did and sent it back to McDonnell who then signed it.

    Legislative is rarely clear in Va but in this case it is clear that the GA did NOT mean locked after the revision.

    Is there a reason you didn't point that out or did it just slip by?

    You're right, and I wish I could have done so. But legislative history, which is admissible in federal courts to prove what the intent of Congress had been in enacting specific legislation, is inadmissible in Virginia. The legislature is presumed to know how to write laws, and Virginia Courts will construe the language actually used in the statute as they understand it.
    Last edited by user; 07-07-2011 at 05:51 PM.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    If you are at liberty to share... are you saying that someone was arrested and charged for violating the Concealed Handgun law because they had not "locked" the gun in a container inside a car?

    TFred
    That is correct. The gun was in a closed Glock bag, inside a closed knapsack, in a vehicle, and in the possession of a person otherwise lawfully entitled to be in possession of the handgun. Charge was carrying a concealed weapon.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    That is correct. The gun was in a closed Glock bag, inside a closed knapsack, in a vehicle, and in the possession of a person otherwise lawfully entitled to be in possession of the handgun. Charge was carrying a concealed weapon.
    user,

    Question here - the statute says container or compartment in the vehicle. Do you think that the legislative intent was a container or compartment of the vehicle, like the glove compartment?

    I ask because this was initially advertised (to my recollection) as being a way that someone could legally keep a handgun in their glove compartment without a CHP. I was kind of surprised when I read it to say IN.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    That is correct. The gun was in a closed Glock bag, inside a closed knapsack, in a vehicle, and in the possession of a person otherwise lawfully entitled to be in possession of the handgun. Charge was carrying a concealed weapon.
    If it's not prying ...How did they find it?

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    Wow! Thanks, User. Great stuff!

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If it's not prying ...How did they find it?
    $20 says he let them search the car.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If it's not prying ...How did they find it?
    They stopped him for an improper lane change. Pulled him and his wife out of the truck. Put her on the curb and him behind the truck, and between the back of the truck and the cruiser. They asked him why he was nervous and he said it was because he had a gun in the car. Cop one was in the cruiser filling out the traffic ticket, when cop two slammed his hand on the hood of the cruiser and yelled, "Gun!". Cop two grabbed the client and pulled his hands back and handcuffed him, then threw him in the back of the cruiser. No request to search, no consent to search, cop two simply went ahead and did it. That's how he found the gun.

    I was prepared to move to exclude the evidence on the ground that it was the product of an illegal search. Once they had the lad out of reach of the gun, and had only arrested him for an illegal lane change, they lacked probable cause to search and had no "officer safety" requirement.

    The lad wanted to be a cop. I think he's changed his mind.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    What does, "compartment" mean, in the concealed-weapon statute?

    "...such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle..."

    So, hypothetically speaking, the handgun could lawfully be secured between the seats, inside the passenger compartment of the vehicle; no?

    Anyway, even if the statute said "locked," I'd just think that it meant "locked" as in "locked and loaded."

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    $20 says he let them search the car.
    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    ... No request to search, no consent to search, cop two simply went ahead and did it. That's how he found the gun.
    Contribute to Skidmark's Legal Fund. ...Go to http://tinyurl.com/3zf4x6s



    TFred

    (Now that there is funny, I don't care who you are!!)

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Contribute to Skidmark's Legal Fund. ...Go to http://tinyurl.com/3zf4x6s



    TFred

    (Now that there is funny, I don't care who you are!!)
    Had to read that twice to figure out what you meant, telling the guy who bet $20 to give to Skid since he lost the bet.... well done.
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

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