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Thread: [Help] Detention Laws

  1. #1
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    Question [Help] Detention Laws

    On the night of 02/13/11 police responded to a call at my residence (no idea what the call was exactly) and detained me, then took me into the hospital for an "evaluation". It happened like this.

    I was in the shower and while washing my hair a bottle falls off a shelf and I step on it causing me to slip and fall in my shower, at the time the window is open and I cry out in pain and anger with quite a few bad words in a loud manner, I guess someone calls the cops because of it. After the shower I then (not knowing police were dispatched or even thinking of the cops) I take my LMT AR-15 out to my car for transportation to another house, shortly after closing my car door I am standing in front of my residence checking some RSS feeds on my Droid X when I hear a bullhorn saying "this is the police, yada yada, get on the ground ect" with about 20+ cops, all in full tac gear, 1 with laser sight all pointed at me, (I am open carrying my Glock 21 .45 at this point) I fully comply and get on the ground and verbally convey to them that I am not hostile or resistant and will fully comply with their demands, I make this abundently clear to them by saying it in a loud, clear, unhostile voice, I also tell them I am open carrying.

    While I have my hands on the back of my head, face down on the asphalt they run up and hit me on the back of the head causing me to have a bloody red scuff on my nose for an extended period of time after the inccident along with a headache to boot. After the initial contact was over they then began discussing what to do next, I am still in handcuffs, in the back of the car with my Glock taken, they have also taken my ar-15 that is in the box in my car without my permission and placed both guns in the trunk of the patrol car. We are there for a few hours, during that time I overhear the officers trying to get a TDO (Temporary Detention Order), for those of you that don't know its an order that HAS to be signed by a magistrate before it can be executed, it then allows the police to take the citizen into custody, the hospital to be evaluated by a shrink from the state to determine their mental state.

    Now THIS is the part where I question the legality of the following actions. While still being detained (they said detained when I asked if I was free to go), in handcuffs with both my guns taken, BEFORE they even get a magistrate to sign the TDO they take me to the local hospital RMH, where I sat for 3 hours waiting for a shrink from the state to come and evaluate me. They try to get a urine sample from me in which I refuse, they then threaten me with a catheter in which I state my rights of this being illegally arrested and that I am no longer being detained but kidnapped, in which they drop the subject. The shrink comes in after around the 3 hour mark and talks to me, I explain the situation and she seems like she understands somewhat, after a brief talk she tells the officer (only 1 has me in custody, the rest left after I was taken from my residence and to the hospital) that there was nothing wrong and that I am to be released. I am then released and taken home, given my guns and go inside, the night is finally over.

    A few months later I get a bill in the mail from RMH stating that I owe them $500 for using their emergency room on said date, I call their office and explain that it was a TDO, they say otherwise and state that the officer never brought in the paperwork for the TDO and that I used their facilities and not the police, I asked her how is that possible for a private citizen to use the secured guarded section of the hospital where you have to have a ID and security card to get into, she says she doesn't know and that I have to pay. Later on that day I am at the store when I run into one of the officers that responded to the call. I asked him if it was a TDO that night and he said no, he said that they waited for hours for the magistrate to sign off on it and he never did. He said that is how they always do it, they always take in their detainee's to the hospital while WAITING for a TDO to be signed. I tell him that it was illegal for him to take me out of my detainment area and that I was then being arrested instead of detained, he disagrees and says "that's how we have always done it".

    So now I ask you, the community, what I should do to get this RMH bill off and what course of action should I take. I have yet to contact the local sherriffs office, I would like to talk to the public about my options first. I am aware there is a law about not being able to take a detained citizen out of his detainment area without arresting him, and doing so was against the law, am I correct on this? If so then I think that is my major argument there?

  2. #2
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Three words: Get A Lawyer.

    Post nothing else on here unless your lawyer approves it. Sounds to me as if you have a lawsuit against the officers, the department, and the hospital. IANAL

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Three words: Get A Lawyer.

    Post nothing else on here unless your lawyer approves it. Sounds to me as if you have a lawsuit against the officers, the department, and the hospital. IANAL
    Seriously get a lawyer NOW. Make sure he FOIAs everything related to the call and the detainment and the rest of the nonsense.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Three words: Get A Lawyer.

    Post nothing else on here unless your lawyer approves it. Sounds to me as if you have a lawsuit against the officers, the department, and the hospital. IANAL
    Howdy Amigo!
    I agree with the quoted advice: Get thee to a lawyerly. ASAP!

    Sounds like an illegal bust to me, and I assume they never gave you any RAS or PC to detain you for as long as they did. But I am not a lawyer. You should look for somebody who will take this case on contingency. Odds are, that won't be much trouble considering the egregious nature of the issues.

    Just cause that's how they've always done it, does not mean the way they've always done it is right. And if it is wrong, it will keep being wrong until somebody takes a stand against it to make it right.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    I appreciate everyone's input, I am 22 years old and while I would say im resonably educated in my rights and such, I don't have any experiance with lawyers. I am currently working with a local temp agency and have very little disposable income. If someone could point me in the right direction of maybe what is the best firm to contact in my area (Rockingham County) and how to go about FIOA'ing all materials related to the call. Thanks again for your input.

  6. #6
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Did this happen in Bridgewater or in the county?

    I need a little more information because there are some things that don't add up just now.

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    1) call the hospital billing dept and start a monthly payment plan on the bill, they should be able to do $25-50/month. This will prevent any collections actions against you or bad rap on your credit score.

    2) get a copy of all hospital paperwork, including caseworkers notes. You are entitled to this under the HIPPA laws and should be fairly easy to do.

    3) get a lawyer and figure out the legality of the proceedings against you and recover your expenses; at the very least follow the FOIA posts on here and get the police encounter info.

    good luck, hell of a story.
    Last edited by TraumaRN; 07-07-2011 at 01:48 PM. Reason: add additional steps

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Did this happen in Bridgewater or in the county?

    I need a little more information because there are some things that don't add up just now.
    I live on a deadend road that is technically in the county but has a bridgewater address. Rockingham County Sherriffs has juristiction, bridgewater comes as backup but has to wait for rockingham in order to do anything.

    I will contact the hospital and request the records, about filing a FIOA, I find this website on google: http://www.rcfp.org/foialetter/index.php which generates a FIOA request, what do I put under Agency, also do I just ask "for the records regarding a call to (address) on (date), and that I would like all materials including dash camera's and audio log's from the dispatcher?"

    Thanks

  9. #9
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=TraumaRN;1568607]1) call the hospital billing dept and start a monthly payment plan on the bill, they should be able to do $25-50/month. This will prevent any collections actions against you or bad rap on your credit score.

    If he does that it will be considered acceptance of the debt. He needs to dispute it and then contact a lawyer about adjusting it.

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    I should also state what I forgot to put in the op. The reason I think they showed up in full SWAT-like gear and tactics is because they have been up to my house multiple times before for people calling in about me legally shooting my AR-15 on my own property. It is a 14.5 inch barrel with welded flash hider so 16' and legal but its VERY loud. I have/had only fired around 250 rounds on my property since I've purchased it and in that time they have came up 3 different times (if i remember correctly) over the period of say a couple months, the 3rd time I told them I would file a complaint for harrassment if they continued and that I am completely within my rights to shoot on my property, all 3 times they left in what seemed to me an aggravated attitude like they hated that they couldn't do anything about it. I guess when they got the call it gave them a reason (or they felt it gave them a reason) to come up with force instead of just to talk like the other times.

    Also there is/was no charges pressed on me and that the hospital bill is the only thing that is standing against me at this current point in time.
    Last edited by LaGgY_42o; 07-07-2011 at 02:07 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TraumaRN View Post
    1) call the hospital billing dept and start a monthly payment plan on the bill, they should be able to do $25-50/month. This will prevent any collections actions against you or bad rap on your credit score.

    2) get a copy of all hospital paperwork, including caseworkers notes. You are entitled to this under the HIPPA laws and should be fairly easy to do.

    3) get a lawyer and figure out the legality of the proceedings against you and recover your expenses; at the very least follow the FOIA posts on here and get the police encounter info.

    good luck, hell of a story.
    I would not pay anything on this bill until it's established that you owe it. A claim by the hospital isn't sufficient to establish that (like they never bill in error). Making minimal payments will not necessarily protect your credit, rather it might do the opposite by indicating that you're overextended, especially if you can't keep up the agreed payments.

    Your attorney may be better able to advise you on this matter. Once you have retained one, refer all communications to him/her. One way to raise a retainer (if you need one) is to offer your AR-15. If you win your suit, you get it back. If not, then arrange small monthly payments with your attorney to retreive it. Let the hospital wait.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  12. #12
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Exclamation Stop Talking.

    Get a lawyer.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaGgY_42o View Post
    I live on a deadend road that is technically in the county but has a bridgewater address. Rockingham County Sherriffs has juristiction, bridgewater comes as backup but has to wait for rockingham in order to do anything.

    I will contact the hospital and request the records, about filing a FIOA, I find this website on google: http://www.rcfp.org/foialetter/index.php which generates a FIOA request, what do I put under Agency, also do I just ask "for the records regarding a call to (address) on (date), and that I would like all materials including dash camera's and audio log's from the dispatcher?"

    Thanks
    OK, that makes more sense!
    Get all your paperwork and I wouldn't do anything with the hospital just yet.
    BTW, I know the Bridgewater Police Chief and the Rockingham County Sheriff.

    The Police Chief is top Notch and the Sheriff is and always has been, an arrogant Dick.

  14. #14
    Regular Member sst0185's Avatar
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    You live on a dead end road with enough land to shoot your AR, but someone hears you in the shower yelling and the SWAT team responds.

    Good luck to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sst0185 View Post
    You live on a dead end road with enough land to shoot your AR, but someone hears you in the shower yelling and the SWAT team responds.

    Good luck to you.
    Our property is more longer than wide, I shoot in my back yard facing a wooded area on a hill that we own, there are however houses across the street and 1 beside me, what happened in the shower caused me to have a moment of anger and I did yell pretty loud with some curse words mixed into it. Our shower window is also directly in the front of the house and I have no doubt that one of the neighbors could hear me, even if they couldn't make it out I know they would of atleast heard the yelling. Also like previously stated the cops have been here before about me shooting and they agreed that it was completely legal, that is the reason why I think they showed up in such force as they did.
    Last edited by LaGgY_42o; 07-07-2011 at 02:45 PM. Reason: added sst0185's quote

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sst0185 View Post
    You live on a dead end road with enough land to shoot your AR, but someone hears you in the shower yelling and the SWAT team responds.

    Good luck to you.
    Hard to explain the area. Bridgewater annexed a lot of the farmland and expanded the water sewer system outside the town. This prompted a lot of building in the county just outside the limits.

    There was a big influx of new people, especially eggheads that work at the college and Northerners who just ran out of gas on 81 and stayed

    What was farmland are now areas like he describes.

    On top of hat, one of the Grattans went crazy (the family was never wrapped too tight) went nuts a couple of years ago and took his AK out one night and killed a Dentist in his driveway. This got the new people upset over the evil black guns.

  17. #17
    Regular Member sst0185's Avatar
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    Understood.

    Again good luck to the op.

  18. #18
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    On top of hat, one of the Grattans went crazy (the family was never wrapped too tight) went nuts a couple of years ago and took his AK out one night and killed a Dentist in his driveway. This got the new people upset over the evil black guns.
    But... don't AKs usually have WOOD furniture?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Hard to explain the area. Bridgewater annexed a lot of the farmland and expanded the water sewer system outside the town. This prompted a lot of building in the county just outside the limits.

    There was a big influx of new people, especially eggheads that work at the college and Northerners who just ran out of gas on 81 and stayed

    What was farmland are now areas like he describes.

    On top of hat, one of the Grattans went crazy (the family was never wrapped too tight) went nuts a couple of years ago and took his AK out one night and killed a Dentist in his driveway. This got the new people upset over the evil black guns.
    Yea, I grew up with the Grattan's, they live right across the river from me. Johnathan used to frequent our house years ago to hang out with my brother, sister, and me. Just had a 4th of july party at their cabin the other day too.
    Last edited by LaGgY_42o; 07-07-2011 at 03:52 PM.

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaGgY_42o View Post
    Yea, I grew up with the Grattan's, they live right across the river from me. .
    You've got me lost then. If you're talking about their old cabin at the base of Round Hill, across the river would be Popes hill and not only in the town limits...but in the middle of the burbs or at the water plant.

    Damn shame too! I used to hunt rabbits there before the town got populated.
    Last edited by peter nap; 07-07-2011 at 04:50 PM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Make sure you name the police department and the officers as co-defendants in any legal action to collect the money.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaGgY_42o View Post
    Later on that day I am at the store when I run into one of the officers that responded to the call. I asked him if it was a TDO that night and he said no, he said that they waited for hours for the magistrate to sign off on it and he never did. He said that is how they always do it, they always take in their detainee's to the hospital while WAITING for a TDO to be signed. I tell him that it was illegal for him to take me out of my detainment area and that I was then being arrested instead of detained, he disagrees and says "that's how we have always done it".
    Is it kidnapping to physically remove a person without arresting them?
    Last edited by Thundar; 07-07-2011 at 05:07 PM.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    I would not pay anything on this bill until it's established that you owe it. A claim by the hospital isn't sufficient to establish that (like they never bill in error). Making minimal payments will not necessarily protect your credit, rather it might do the opposite by indicating that you're overextended, especially if you can't keep up the agreed payments.

    Your attorney may be better able to advise you on this matter.
    That sounds reasonable, also there are ECO's and TDO's, perhaps he was placed under an ECO to be evaluated for the TDO. There is a 4 hour window for this to occur:

    "G. A law-enforcement officer who, based upon his observation or the reliable reports of others, has probable cause to believe that a person meets the criteria for emergency custody as stated in this section may take that person into custody and transport that person to an appropriate location to assess the need for hospitalization or treatment without prior authorization. A law-enforcement officer who takes a person into custody pursuant to this subsection or subsection H may lawfully go or be sent beyond the territorial limits of the county, city, or town in which he serves to any point in the Commonwealth for the purpose of obtaining the assessment. Such evaluation shall be conducted immediately. The period of custody shall not exceed four hours from the time the law-enforcement officer takes the person into custody.'

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+37.2-808

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    Fees and Services

    "E. ..............No fees or costs shall be recovered, however, from the person who is the subject of the examination or hearing or his estate when no good cause for his admission exists or when the recovery would create an undue financial hardship. "

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+37.2-804

    Looks like you are off the hook! Please get an attorney, from your story and the law, you might just have a nice case against them (my opinion).

  25. #25
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Hummm,,,

    interesting that you got the full SWAT treatment, beating, detention, kidnapped,
    Etc,Etc,,,, In February!!!
    now the Only reason you actually think or want to do something about it Is
    because the hospital sent you a Bill!

    you should delete you posts, S T F U!, and get yourself a lawyer!

    i reviewed your posts, all 8.
    i think the 1st one says something about you teaching others how to stand up for their rights.
    if this story is really true, it would be worth millions,,,
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 07-07-2011 at 09:06 PM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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