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Thread: They're on to us...

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    They're on to us...

    Wisconsin State Journal today mentions the MD online training, and as to whether it qualifies as sufficent training.
    Now, technically, we know it does, but you can bet there will now be a fuss raised now that it's been in the press.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    sore losers ! oh well, there is NOTHING that the worthless commie boo hoo cry libs can do about it right now. HA HA HA HA HA
    Last edited by GLOCK21GB; 07-09-2011 at 10:16 AM.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    Regular Member Da Po-lock's Avatar
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    I read that too in several places, all brought out yesterday AFTER the signing.
    I also read the additional spin put on it saying basically that the DOJ will have to review this more closely to see if it is a valid form of training.

    HA - The MD training meets EVERY single of the NOW law. They can try to do what ever they like, it is now LAW and the wording CANNOT be changed. Any denials based on the MD training will be appealed and WON because the law states "Training by a police department available to the public", there is no way around it no matter how hard they try, its in plain english black and white. Compared to the lame hunters safety, the MD training is much more informative.

    Soooo tough twinkies to the whiners.

    ................Confident Po-lock
    Last edited by Da Po-lock; 07-09-2011 at 10:43 AM. Reason: Spelling
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    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    I'm wondering if...

    Quote Originally Posted by rcav8r View Post
    Wisconsin State Journal today mentions the MD online training, and as to whether it qualifies as sufficent training.
    Now, technically, we know it does, but you can bet there will now be a fuss raised now that it's been in the press.
    being in the MD data bank prior to the law going into effect will allow for a pass? Grandfather In, so to speak.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Po-lock View Post
    I read that too in several places, all brought out yesterday AFTER the signing.
    I also read the additional spin put on it saying basically that the DOJ will have to review this more closely to see if it is a valid form of training.

    HA - The MD training meets EVERY single of the NOW law. They can try to do what ever they like, it is now LAW and the wording CANNOT be changed. Any denials based on the MD training will be appealed and WON because the law states "Training by a police department available to the public", there is no way around it no matter how hard they try, its in plain english balck and white. Compared to the lame hunters safety, the MD training is much more informative.

    Soooo tough twinkies to the whiners.

    ................Confident Po-lock
    yuppers !!
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  6. #6
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    We may have shot ourselves in the foot on this one. It would not surprise me to see the MD police shut down the training site to all but MD residents. I'm sure the MD police do not want to get involved in our fracas. Don'tknow what that will do to those of us that have already taken the course and received a certificate.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Question Wild Boar, Can You Explain Your "Signature" Line Please?

    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post
    being in the MD data bank prior to the law going into effect will allow for a pass? Grandfather In, so to speak.

    I just noticed your signature line. Could you explain it please?
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Regular Member Da Po-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    We may have shot ourselves in the foot on this one. It would not surprise me to see the MD police shut down the training site to all but MD residents. I'm sure the MD police do not want to get involved in our fracas. Don'tknow what that will do to those of us that have already taken the course and received a certificate.
    Well, those who completed the training have the certificate in hand and it cannot be "voided" so to speak. The training we have is dated on the certificate itself before the signing yesterday so it will be completely valid for training. Hopefully everyone saved the PDF of the training also. Anyone completing this training in the future will still get the certificate. The law does not state training before the bill was signed into law would not be valid, if it did, thousands of dollars already spent would be out the window for hundreds of people and no previous form of training would be valid after yesterday.

    As for shutting down the site, I seriously doubt that. What do they care what happens here. They could possibly make someone log in with some form of MD ID but why would they spend any money of theirs on it?
    Any one of you lily livered, flea bitten, bow legged varmints care to slap leather with me?

    A.S.N.F.
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    When the driver's license is entered on the form all they would have to do is reject all that do not have a MD prefix. Simple software change. Essentially no cost to them. I hope they don't do that but they have already been contacted on the issue by the media and say that the intent of the web site was for MD residents only. I hope the question just goes away. I also don't see how the Wisconsin DoJ can say the MD training isn't valid but Wisconsin politics is Wisconsin politics. Unfortunately SB93 chartered the Wisconsin DoJ to generate a set of rules.

    Everybody keep your eyes on this one and get ready to make noise.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 07-09-2011 at 11:48 AM.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    We may have shot ourselves in the foot on this one. It would not surprise me to see the MD police shut down the training site to all but MD residents. I'm sure the MD police do not want to get involved in our fracas. Don'tknow what that will do to those of us that have already taken the course and received a certificate.
    That is exactly what I believe will happen. The MD online training was specifically set up for MD residents (for firearm ownership, I believe).

    The NRA may make sure of that, as it steals dollars from their trainers.

  11. #11
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    When the driver's license is entered on the form all they would have to do is reject all that do not have a MD prefix. Simple software change. Essentially no cost to them. I hope they don't do that but they have already been contacted on the issue by the media and say that the intent of the web site was for MD residents only. I hope the question just goes away. I also don't see how the Wisconsin DoJ can say the MD training isn't valid but Wisconsin politics is Wisconsin politics. Unfortunately SB93 chartered the Wisconsin DoJ to generate a set of rules.

    Everybody keep your eyes on this one and get ready to make noise.
    Maybe the WI-DOJ will use the MD online training as a model and tailor it for WI. I thought there was another state that issues permits after the completion on online course.

  12. #12
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo
    When the driver's license is entered on the form all they would have to do is reject all that do not have a MD prefix.
    Except that you don't have to enter a DL#. Suppose they can change that, too.

    the intent of the web site was for MD residents only.
    It doesn't say that; they may take steps to limit it in the future.

    I also don't see how the Wisconsin DoJ can say the MD training isn't valid
    Esp. since MD residents, using that training, are going to be allowed to carry in WI.
    If it's good enough for MD residents, who will be allowed to carry here, why isn't it good enough for WI residents?

    It EXACTLY meets the letter of the law, being:
    1) a firearms safety or training course
    2) available to the public
    3) offered by a law enforcement agency
    [See 175.60(4)(1)(c), on page 8 of the bill.]

    I've read laws from other states that mention something about an instructor (along with the same 1-2-3 phrasing as above), or "a course that the agency finds acceptable", or things like that. Our new law doesn't have any of that.
    They made the law, we found something that exactly met their requirements, they'll have to live with it...
    or change the law, in which case there will be quite the uproar.

    (To stave off the inevitable debate, which has its own thread, about whether this is good & sufficient training to actually carry, no, of course it's not. But people should be able to choose training that works for them. More is better.)
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    MKEgal:

    I am looking at a copy of my MD certificate #WEB82896 at this moment. My DL# is printed on it in red letters, beginning with the letters WI for Wisconsin.

    The MD police were contacted by the media on the online course and did definitely state that the course was intended for MD residents only. That fact has been posted by other members also. I merely stated that the issue may cause them to limit the online training course in the future so that the MD police training unit does not get pulled into the fracas that may arise.

    I agree that as the text in the new law is written there is no reason that the MD course does not qualify. As I also stated unfortunately the bill assigns the responsibility of the DoJ to publish a set of rules. It is hoped the DoJ doesn't play games with us but all they need do is publish a rule that says "Only courses conducted by Law Enforcement Agencies operating in the State of Wisconsin satisfy the firearm training requirements of s175.60". That rule technically meets the letter of the law although not the intent of the law. That is why I said we must keep our eyes open until Nov 1. I am concerned that now that the CC carry privilege is in effect that many will back off and let our guard down.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    This whole deal reminds me of the phrase "freedom isn't a loophole".
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    Regular Member Grant Guess's Avatar
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    Step one of three for registration is RESIDENCY...and they let you register as an out of state resident.

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    Regular Member IcrewUH60's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^

    and my 10 year old daughter satisfactorily complteted the MD Online Safety Course without a driver's licences number, she printed her certificate, signed it and mailed the other 1/2 back to MD along with mine. Why would it not be valid?

    The best point I've heard so far about this is
    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    [...]
    If it's good enough for MD residents, who will be allowed to carry here, why isn't it good enough for WI residents?[...]

    this is the crappy after-effect of "what can happen" when a right is turned into a privilege. It's now open for interpretation.... I can't wait until the left is running the state government again [sarcasm] ~ $50 permits will be a thing of the past.
    "In a court trial half the lawyers are wrong." - Captain Nemo

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo
    I am looking at a copy of my MD certificate #WEB82896 at this moment. My DL# is printed on it in red letters, beginning with the letters WI for Wisconsin.
    Because you chose to put in your DL# when you registered.
    I chose not to, so my certificate says "S123456789".
    But my address is correct, and if their system was supposed to reject OOS students, it could.
    And as someone else pointed out, his 10yo obviously doesn't have a DL.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    sb93 COULDVE been written in such a way that the DOJ wouldve had latitude to determine what constitutes 'proper training'....that didnt happen...I think the antis were so set on 'mandated training' that allowing the DOJ any flexibility may not have been good enough for them...so, now, here we sit...LOL...with the MD training online...

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    sb93 COULDVE been written in such a way that the DOJ wouldve had latitude to determine what constitutes 'proper training'....that didnt happen...I think the antis were so set on 'mandated training' that allowing the DOJ any flexibility may not have been good enough for them...so, now, here we sit...LOL...with the MD training online...
    As I said in another thread. I have talked to several people in the Capital building and they said they were trying to write the legislation as tight as possible so that there was little leeway in regulations so that, for example, an anti 2A AG gets elected so they can't make up their own rules.

    That is why there is such language as 'no effect on open carry' and 'not too exceed' and spells out specifically which out of state permits will be recognized as well as 'live fire is not required'. They could of been vague and allowed DOJ to write rules but they didn't.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    As I said in another thread. I have talked to several people in the Capital building and they said they were trying to write the legislation as tight as possible so that there was little leeway in regulations so that, for example, an anti 2A AG gets elected so they can't make up their own rules.

    That is why there is such language as 'no effect on open carry' and 'not too exceed' and spells out specifically which out of state permits will be recognized as well as 'live fire is not required'. They could of been vague and allowed DOJ to write rules but they didn't.
    and i like it like this! :-)

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    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    I'm glad we have you Paul.

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    As I said in another thread. I have talked to several people in the Capital building and they said they were trying to write the legislation as tight as possible so that there was little leeway in regulations so that, for example, an anti 2A AG gets elected so they can't make up their own rules.

    That is why there is such language as 'no effect on open carry' and 'not too exceed' and spells out specifically which out of state permits will be recognized as well as 'live fire is not required'. They could of been vague and allowed DOJ to write rules but they didn't.
    Even if I'm wrong about most things boar out.
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    The point of my post was not to debate what MD does or doesn't do. My intent was to draw attention to the fact that we advertised the process and the media has already snatched it up and ran with it. I also intended to draw attention to the fact that if the MD police does not wish to get embroiled in our politics they can very easily shut the door to non-residents by using driver license restrictions, whether or not the current requirement for DL information is optional is not the point. That can be changed at a moments notice with a minor software change. As with many issues on this forum things rapidly moprh to a "he said, she said" and comments that the proper t's aren't crossed and all the i's aren't dotted.

    As for the 10 year old getting a certificate. That is bothersome to me that there isn't an age filter but it is really a moot point. So what if she gets a certificate. It is of no value to her. She can't get a Wisconsin concealed carry permit with it. She can't pass the age requirement for the permit. In order to get the permit she must show proof of age that she is 21 years old or older.

  23. #23
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Po-lock
    I also read the additional spin put on it saying basically that the DOJ will have to review this more closely to see if it is a valid form of training.
    Quote Originally Posted by IcrewUH60
    It's now open for interpretation...
    Quote Originally Posted by paul
    they were trying to write the legislation as tight as possible so that there was little leeway in regulations so that if, for example, an anti 2A AG gets elected they can't make up their own rules.
    They could of been vague and allowed DOJ to write rules but they didn't.
    The WI law very clearly says that the DOJ can't add requirements that aren't already in the law.
    See 175.60 (2)(b) middle of the RH column on pg. 7 of the PDF down there in the top line of my sig:
    The department may not impose conditions, limitations, or requirements that are not expressly provided for in this section on the issuance, scope, effect, or content of a license.
    Also see 175.60 (4)(c) RH column, pg. 8:
    a firearm safety or training course that is available to the public and offered by a law enforcement agency,
    OR if the course is taught by an instructor (insert conditions)...
    So unless they want to change the law, which we should be alert for, the DOJ has to accept MD.
    And if they try not to, I want to see them explain how they're going to let people w/ MD permits carry here using the same thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo
    My intent was to draw attention to the fact that we advertised the process and the media has already snatched it up and ran with it.
    Good! Hopefully more people will get to know about it this way, esp. if the DOJ quits lying about their being able to deny accepting it as training.
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    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
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    your interpretation does not matter........

    The only interpretation that does matter IS THE DOJ'S!!

    The DOJ could say the the Maryland on-line course does not qualify because it was developed and offered by the "Maryland Police Training Commission", and by definition they are not a "Law Enforcement agency" they are only the Training commission for the police dept.

    Again it is all open to their interpretation and not your own!!

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Your opinion.
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