Question about a LEO stop while OC'ing.

Woody1960 said:

WOW,thanks for the replys and the education. I got what I asked for, I guess. LOL. Lots of opinions here I see.:lol: I suppose it would determine the time and place as to wheather or not you give id. To me, it just seems better to let them know I am on their side,and not a bad guy. But I do see both side of it. It is more complicated than I thought. Thanks again guys,I have lots of reading to do.Woody

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Wait a minute!!! Hold the horses!!!

Nobody said anything about tactics. The discussion has been about reasoning for not complying--philosophy, that sort of thing.

TACTICS ARE AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MATTER. And the law on the subject bears heavily on tactics.

First, and most important--is there a stop-and-identify state statute or local ordinance in the jurisdiction where a fella is stopped/detained/temporarily seized for investigative purposes? If there is, and a fella refuses to provide identity info, a fella could get a citation (or arrested?) for refusing to provide identity info. This is not a discussion of legalities. There are a buncha factors that bear on this, for example, does the cop have reasonable suspicion the detainee is, was, or is about to be involved in crime? I don't want to discuss all the legal angles here. This is merely to highlight why tactics are an entirely different matter from philosophy. Get your tactics out of step with the law or the practical realities of a police encounter, and you could end up as a misdemeanor defendant.

Legalities and tactics are a whole nother conversation.

welll, man up!!

ixtow said:

Don't ask if you are being detained. You won't get an answer, and will stand there detaining yourself...

If he doesnt answer, you have not bee detained, turn and walk away!

If you are feeling uncomfortable enough that you have to ask, duh, you already know the answer. You're being detained. It is about whether you feel free to go. You don't need someone else to tell you that.

Uncomfortable does not a detainment make!

Ask "Why am I being detained." It establishes that you are indeed being detained, and the burden of a valid reason for it lies on the Officer.

Asking if you are being detained does not make you detained!

No, this does NOT mean you are free to go. You're being detained and you acknowledged so yourself. With or without cause doesn't matter. the Officer will usually backpedal and respond by saying "Oh, you're not being detained." At which point you are free to go! But until he says that, you have established that, yes, you are being detained, and you cannot leave or you will be resisting.

Leaving the place of a NON detainment is NOT resisting, it is LEAVING!

If you felt the need to ask, then you already know the answer.

Asking a question does not answer the question. Not getting an answer is the answer, you are not detained. Walk away!

If the Officer wants rope, let him have as much as he wants. Good Cops don't go down that road to begin with. Record it and follow up later to whatever degree you see fit.

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Cops cannot detain you just by walking up to you and asking for ID, etc.
In order for you to have any kind of legal standing against an unlawful detainment, they MUST overtly stop you and hold you against your will.
If you are so weak, that you consider any simple interaction with LEO to be a detainment, then you deserve what you get!
Some cops will play a game of trying to allow you to think that you may not leave, that you are under their legal purview, when you are Not!
It is our right and duty to go about our lawful activities in spite of the game the cops sometimes play.
The court has ruled that it is our right and duty to resist unlawful and petty demands of ANYBODY!!!!

Woody1960,
I would recommend you visit the link in my sig for New to OC, there is lot's of valuable video and info there. One of the best is Dont talk to Police This is a real life explanation from a defense attorney and a former investigator of what can happen when you open your mouth.

See my signature.

1245A Defender said:

thank you citizen,, i apologize to markd51, i was rude , curt, and short to you, i am sorry..
many of my learned friends have responded to your views about, cop jobs, citizen rights, and
the importance of holding your 4th and 5th amendment rights to the highest degree, and i thank them for saying ALL the things that i would have said.
like mkegirl said, if you let the cops have your ID everytime they see YOU, they will learn that they can do that to you everytime they see you, and they will learn that they can do that to every OCer they see, everytime they see an OCer, and the more OCers that give in to the ID demand, the harder they will demand ID from EVERY OCer they see, EVERYTIME they see an OCer!!!

the best OC, cop interaction ive ever read about was, the cop sees the OCer, he asks, can I see your ID please? the OCer says, no you may not! the cop says, OK, have a nice day!
THAT is how it is supposed to work!

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Thank you for your apology sir, apology accepted, and I too apologize to you.

Other than my previous outburst, and my wrong assumptions, and hypothetical scenarios, this has been a very good thread to read, with good information.

I believe at the time that Mr St John was illegally detained, there was no signage in place at the Theater, but I would take a good educated guess that there is now. As I understand, private property ownership can superceed state laws in this instance in "where" you can legally carry. That OC at that theater now would no doubt be termed illegal.

This area oddly seems quite anti-gun, in that the Alamogordo 2ATF (second amendment task force) in which I believe St John is a member of, banned the 2ATF from having an OC meeting at the Otero County Fairgrounds. This is County property, in which County Laws were not supposedly able to superceed State Firearm laws, and they in fact even had held many Gun Shows there in the past, but the County turned around, and claimed that since the Fairground Board were the private "leasees" of the property, that their jurisdiction took precedence.

There are signs on the fences, with "No Guns, no Animals (or dogs is it, I forget?) and yet they hold the Otero County Fair there once a year, and the place is chock full of Livestock. lol This town seems to like talking out of both sides of its mouth.

At the Civic Center in town, there was also Gun Shows being regularly held in the past a few times a year, and then, after the acquisition of a government Liqour License, all gun shows have appeared to cease, and it appears they will never return there.

Yet, the Ruidoso Convention Center, which also has the exact same Government Liqour License regularly holds Gun Shows there, without a hint of a problem from the NM Alcohol, and Gaming Dept.


Alamogordo-Otero County government seems to be walking on eggshells, with the worry of one word..... "liability".

very good question asked, WOODY1960. this thread has had some very good information in it. i feel the majority of the people that look to the 2ndA, then they tend to pay attention to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments.

points to NAVYLCDR and CITIZEN.

MARKD51, like me you seem to be aggravated at the way your government acts. may i know what you have done to help correct these attitudes?

i noticed in an early post of yours , that you stated you would be afraid to walk up the street OCing. is this a future tense statement? have you never tried? i am not as up on NM laws. is it legal for you to OC in NM?
are there any groups that you could join and have gatherings with? individuals don't have as much political clout as a larger group of people

papa bear said:

very good question asked, WOODY1960. this thread has had some very good information in it. i feel the majority of the people that look to the 2ndA, then they tend to pay attention to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments.

points to NAVYLCDR and CITIZEN.

MARKD51, like me you seem to be aggravated at the way your government acts. may i know what you have done to help correct these attitudes?

i noticed in an early post of yours , that you stated you would be afraid to walk up the street OCing. is this a future tense statement? have you never tried? i am not as up on NM laws. is it legal for you to OC in NM?
are there any groups that you could join and have gatherings with? individuals don't have as much political clout as a larger group of people

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Sorry again to take this thread to an off topic tangent, but to answer your questions.

Well, there's a number of reasons I haven't OC'd, which yes, it is legal here, nor have I ever conceal carried in my vehicles.
Sure, I easily could conceal in my vehicles, but do worry about leaving such in vehicles, as I wouldn't like seeing any of my weapons falling into the wrong hands. There's an abundance of vehicle burglaries here, and much of it is due to ignorance-laziness, with people not locking their vehicles.

As for open carry, truthfully, I have a beautiful collection of handguns, but a very poor collection of holsters. All of my holsters were more specifically designed for inside the pants carry, and perhaps could be determined by police as inadequate for open carry here? As well, I've been a bit reluctant to "test the waters" with my fine weapons (Colts& Walthers), as I prefer no one to handle them, not even LEO's.

Alamogordo is not really that bad a town, where I have felt an urgent need to carry, but of course that's a personal decision, and I'm of course not against any who prefer to do so.. This isnt anything like Chicago, where you are often harrassed by thugs wherever you go, particularly on public transportation, or worries like being robbed at gunpoint-knifepoint while getting gas, groceries, etc.

Another problem here, is schools scattered across town, and I have little doubt that there's municipal codes that prohibit OC withn so many yards of a school.

My largest fears? Four legged animals, being cornered two times here by vicious Pit Bull Dogs at large.

And apologies as well, to local LEO's here, they are certainly not that bad, and in truth I believe they basically do a very fine job here. I'm certain their jobs are not easy ones, and due to them having to encounter many different types of quite a large percentage of screwheads here on a daily basis, with domestic violence, DUI, theives, etc, they become hardened, and maybe then assume "everyone's the bad guy", and you become "Guilty until proven innocent".

Lately, I have been looking into better quality, secure outside the pants Holsters for my handguns. And when time permits, I would like applying for a CCW permit here. I should've done so years ago.

wrightme said:

So, other than the CostCo case? ... .

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The Costco/Erik Scott case did not involve OC. Erik Scott was CCing two weapons, one of which was not on his permit. Evidence was also submitted that Erik had significant levels of prescription painkillers in his system that may have affected his judgement. That said, Erik Scott's death was still entirely unnecessary, and in my opinion due to a gross overreaction by the officers present.

thebigsd said:

Welcome to OCDO!!! The main reason people are opposed to showing their ID is because there is usually no legal requirement that they do so. Police officers should not be stopping and OCer simply because they have a gun. They need to have a legitimate reason. If you were being hassled by any other person you wouldn't stand for it. Why should the police be any different?

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I object to the showing of ID because of the nefarious uses to which an unscrupulous government official might put that information. I suspect that this may have actually happened to me. I was recently "delayed" in the purchase of a Glock. I pressed the issue, knowing that there could be zero in my background that would even slow my approval for a purchase. My lifetime of transgressions that have been adjudicated amount to a single traffic ticket (improper lane usage) and a parking ticket (parking facing the wrong way). I made a pest of myself until the FBI key-presser gave in and explored what was going on. All he would say was that he had never seen what showed up when I was NICSed. He "denied" the original application, keyed in a new one, and "proceeded" it. I am appealing the original "denial." The FBI is trying not to respond, saying that "delays" can't be appealed. However, I have two control numbers. The first was "denied" and can be appealed. I want to know if some key-presser in Montgomery tried to abuse the system based on my having been stopped and, foolishly, having provided ID.

So, no, I won't provide ID if I do not have to. I don't even carry my DL or CPL while OCing.

Woody1960 said:

Thanks for the replys guys. I understand OC'ers are doing nothing wrong, but if the police dont check id whats to stop a bad guy from carring just like the OC'er is? I dont mean to attach negatives to citizen doing something leagle. I guess the way I see it is, I would rather just show him id and be on my way,then have 5 cars show up and really waste tax dollars.

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And then he pulls you over when you're driving to check your 'papers' and make sure you aren't doing anything illegal. And then he stops you walking out of Safeway with a 6-pack to make sure you're legal to purchase alcohol. And then he stops you before you enter your bank to make sure you don't have a mask and a note to rob the place. And then the government puts you in a concentration camp--the absolute BEST way to make sure you obey the law and respect the cops' "authoritay..." and don't waste taxpayers' dollars after the minimal charge for the Zyklon B used in the chamber.


BTW 3000 posts!!! What do I win? Can I quote from Der Horst Wessel Lied again????

MilProGuy said:

Your post make perfect sense to me, Woody!

I believe a person really has to have a big "chip on their shoulder" to purposefully infuriate a law enforcement officer who is doing his or her job on a routine stop.

Personally, I appreciate the fine law enforcement officers who lay their lives on the line every day to protect and serve the rest of us.

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Me too, it's the SS thugs that I have a problem with who think they're above the law and the "little people" are subjects, not citizens, to bow and scrape to the sociopath cops' badges and guns or suffer the consequences. Laws be damned. The law is whatever they say it is and question it at risk of death, grievous bodily injury, false arrest, malicious prosecution and the so called "blue wall of silence" where the "fine law enforcement officers" circle the wagons around the scum. After all, they're all 'brothers in blue.'

Lanearas said:

The Costco/Erik Scott case did not involve OC. Erik Scott was CCing two weapons, one of which was not on his permit. Evidence was also submitted that Erik had significant levels of prescription painkillers in his system that may have affected his judgement. That said, Erik Scott's death was still entirely unnecessary, and in my opinion due to a gross overreaction by the officers present.

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Correct.

eye95 said:

I object to the showing of ID because of the nefarious uses to which an unscrupulous government official might put that information. I suspect that this may have actually happened to me. I was recently "delayed" in the purchase of a Glock. I pressed the issue, knowing that there could be zero in my background that would even slow my approval for a purchase. My lifetime of transgressions that have been adjudicated amount to a single traffic ticket (improper lane usage) and a parking ticket (parking facing the wrong way). I made a pest of myself until the FBI key-presser gave in and explored what was going on. All he would say was that he had never seen what showed up when I was NICSed. He "denied" the original application, keyed in a new one, and "proceeded" it. I am appealing the original "denial." The FBI is trying not to respond, saying that "delays" can't be appealed. However, I have two control numbers. The first was "denied" and can be appealed. I want to know if some key-presser in Montgomery tried to abuse the system based on my having been stopped and, foolishly, having provided ID.

So, no, I won't provide ID if I do not have to. I don't even carry my DL or CPL while OCing.

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Make sure the guy entering the info didn't fat finger a key at the place of purchase. I had one returned because he spelled my name wrong. Reentered and 40 minutes later I was walking out the door with my M-4. Wasn't denied or delayed, I believe it came back as no records found.

Gunslinger said:

And then he pulls you over when you're driving to check your 'papers' and make sure you aren't doing anything illegal. And then he stops you walking out of Safeway with a 6-pack to make sure you're legal to purchase alcohol. And then he stops you before you enter your bank to make sure you don't have a mask and a note to rob the place. And then the government puts you in a concentration camp--the absolute BEST way to make sure you obey the law and respect the cops' "authoritay..." and don't waste taxpayers' dollars after the minimal charge for the Zyklon B used in the chamber.

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Really, I think your reaching here, dont you?

BTW,any interaction I have ever had with the police since CCing has always been postitive. Maybe it is the way a person acts when stopped that causes the officer to question them.

Motofixxer said:

Woody1960,
I would recommend you visit the link in my sig for New to OC, there is lot's of valuable video and info there. One of the best is Dont talk to Police This is a real life explanation from a defense attorney and a former investigator of what can happen when you open your mouth.

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Thank you, I will def be checking those out.

eye95 said:

I object to the showing of ID because of the nefarious uses to which an unscrupulous government official might put that information. I suspect that this may have actually happened to me. I was recently "delayed" in the purchase of a Glock. I pressed the issue, knowing that there could be zero in my background that would even slow my approval for a purchase. My lifetime of transgressions that have been adjudicated amount to a single traffic ticket (improper lane usage) and a parking ticket (parking facing the wrong way). I made a pest of myself until the FBI key-presser gave in and explored what was going on. All he would say was that he had never seen what showed up when I was NICSed. He "denied" the original application, keyed in a new one, and "proceeded" it. I am appealing the original "denial." The FBI is trying not to respond, saying that "delays" can't be appealed. However, I have two control numbers. The first was "denied" and can be appealed. I want to know if some key-presser in Montgomery tried to abuse the system based on my having been stopped and, foolishly, having provided ID.

So, no, I won't provide ID if I do not have to. I don't even carry my DL or CPL while OCing.

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I also had the purchase of a Glock take quite a bit longer than normal at a major gun show in my area (The Nation's Gun Show in Dulles/Chantilly, VA). The dealer made a little joke about it probably being my last name. It happens to be the same as a well known celebrity in Virginia who had some legal problems and served time in prison. The second time he came back to talk to me, he wasn't joking and said he really thought that it was the last name that was causing them to take their time.

One never knows what is going on on the other side of those calls I bet.

not hardly

Woody1960 said:

Thanks for the replys guys. I understand OC'ers are doing nothing wrong, but if the police dont check id whats to stop a bad guy from carring just like the OC'er is? I dont mean to attach negatives to citizen doing something leagle. I guess the way I see it is, I would rather just show him id and be on my way,then have 5 cars show up and really waste tax dollars.

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what is to say you are on your away,w/out a hassle just because you caved and shown id,or ltcf? you are opening the door for further illeagle scrutiny i feel.

Woody1960 said:

Really, I think your reaching here, dont you?

BTW,any interaction I have ever had with the police since CCing has always been postitive. Maybe it is the way a person acts when stopped that causes the officer to question them.

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That's what the Jews thought in the '30s. How'd that work out for them?

Guess I been lucky with cops. I know most of them in my town due to my job and never had a problem. Was pulled over for speed a few weeks ago and was oc. Was on my mc. Never asked for my LTCH. I usually tell them i'm armed anyway. In my job I asked if they are armed before I assess them for injuries. Figure if I am cool with the cops, they will be cool with me. Act like a ass get treated like a ass. So far so good.

hogeater f6 said:

Act like a ass get treated like a ass.

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This is what happened to me last year and was my first encounter with police after having carried for year:

[video=youtube;CZVz0V-bek0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZVz0V-bek0&feature=channel_video_title[/video]

So, where, at any point, did I act "like an ass" to be treated as one?