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Thread: And they say guns are bad

  1. #1
    Regular Member spinner's Avatar
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    And they say guns are bad

    The feds say guns are bad, well tell that to this guy. What would of happened if he didn't have one. Man greets break-in suspects with gun

    July 13, 2011 8:56 AM
    The Associated Press

    LINCOLNTON — Sheriff's deputies say a Lincoln County homeowner held two men at gunpoint and waited for officers to arrive after an attempted break in at his home.

    The Charlotte Observer reported that Jerry Eugene Bowen was at home when someone knocked at the door, waited a moment, then kicked in the door.

    Sheriff's officials say Bowen pulled a gun on two Hickory men as they began to enter his home Tuesday morning.

    The homeowner fired a warning shot and stood guard until deputies arrived.

    Thirty-three-year-old James David Rubenstahl and his nephew, 22-year-old Robert Ray Rubenstahl, are charged with felony breaking and entering and attempted larceny.

    Both men were being held in Lincoln County jail. It was unclear if they have lawyers.

  2. #2
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    1) No warning shots. If you're firing, it's because you're in fear for your life. Don't waste ammo.
    Other than that, good for him.

    2) Link, please?

    3) Forum rules say you can't post a whole story.
    (11) RESPECT COPYRIGHT HOLDERS: We often share news stories with one another. Please remember that these stories are copyrighted material and only post a fair-use excerpt along with a link where the rest of the story may be read.
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    Here is the link to that story. I posted it yesterday under "Another one for the good guys"

    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...-break-in.html
    Walk softly and carry a large caliber.

  4. #4
    Regular Member spinner's Avatar
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    my bad

    yeah I forget about that sometimes. But good story though. your right though, I think a door being kicked in at your house is grounds for just shoot to kill, no warning shots. But I don't know IANAL. I wonder if you have to see a weapon first or not. Be a good one to ask a lawyer.

  5. #5
    Regular Member carry for myself's Avatar
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    only warning shots im firing are 3 into center mass. as a warning that my verbal warning to back the eff up........were ignored.
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner View Post
    yeah I forget about that sometimes. But good story though. your right though, I think a door being kicked in at your house is grounds for just shoot to kill, no warning shots. But I don't know IANAL. I wonder if you have to see a weapon first or not. Be a good one to ask a lawyer.
    This is why some of us spend the time to pore over te case law from the state(s) we spend time in. In a very general sense merely having your door kicked in probably does not constitute imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Case law may change that in your jurisdiction.

    Also, just to be pedantic - we do not "shoot to kill". We shoot to stop the threat. If it takes the BG becoming DRT then that's the absolute minimum amount of shooting it took to stop the threat. If the BG stops being a threat without becoming room temperature right away or later on, then that was the absolute minimum amount of shooting it took to stop the threat. In case you forget to exercise your right to not say anything until your attorney arrives and tells you what to say, they will appreciate that you said stuff about stopping the threat instead of saying stuff about shooting to kill.

    As for warning shots? I subscribe to the school of thought that says if the situation is serious enough to pull the gun it's serious enough to shoot the BG. Warning shots are just proof that the situation was not serious enough to shoot them, and thus no justifcation or excuse for drawing/shooting. If presenting the gun is enough to stop the BG's imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury you can decide to not shoot him/her/it.

    As for holding a BG at gun point till the cops arrive? That's going to be another judgement call. Once the imminent threat no longer exists you (generally) no longer have the legal right to use deadly force and could find yourself looking a false arrest, illegal inprisonment, armed kidnapping and maybe even assault/assault & battery. Yes, it sucks to have to stand there and watch the BGs who just kicked in your door walk away with impunity. You need to decide for yourself if that sucks more than possibly spending time locked up with them.

    stay safe.

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    Skid what is DRT?
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

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    Regular Member EricDailey X-NRA's Avatar
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    We don' need no stinking rules...

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    ...

    2) Link, please?

    3) Forum rules say you can't post a whole story.
    Why worry about the rules? You mention rule (11) Copyright and links. Try looking at (8) Keep it on topic... this OP or the story never mentions OC. Neither do about 1/4th of the threads on the NC forum. Other rules are selectively enforced all the time too. Moderators decide what the rules are on this forum.
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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Amigo!
    I don't know about your area, but the infamous (or famous) Make my Day law in Colorado is as follows:

    18-1-704.5 Use of Physical Force Against an Intruder
    (Colorado's "Make My Day" law)

    (1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.
    (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable believe that the other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant. (Emphasis added!)
    (3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force.

    (4) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.
    ------------------------------------------

    So as you can see, we can't just blast away at an intruder. There are three parts to justified use of Deadly Physical Force connected by AND....:

    That the intruder has made unlawful entry into the home.
    AND that occupant reasonably believes the intruder has committed, is committing, or intends to commit a crime against a person or property IN ADDITION TO THE UNLAWFUL ENTRY.
    AND the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder might use physical force against the occupant.

    There is a ton of grey area in the law, but when an intruder has entered unlawfully, the use of deadly physical force is not warranted in that circumstance. If the intruder produces a weapon, that's a different thing altogether.

    The matter of firing on another human being should not be regarded with a capricious attitude. Once that trigger is pulled, there ain't no calling it back. From there, despite the language of the law, the life of the intruder may be ended or altered in a massive way, while the occupant will also find their lives turned upside down. There will be cops investigating, D.A. considering whether the shooting was justified under the law, rumors moving like a brush fire through the neighborhood, and lawyers getting involved in your life.

    The trigger is the last resort, not the first. If I shout "Get out of my house NOW!" and produce my pistol with clear intention to fire if my command is not immediately acted upon, I'm in a better position for justified shooting. If I simply holler "Freeze or die!" and hold them for the cops to arrest, that's better. But when there is no alternative, that trigger will be pulled. I'll take my chances in front of a judge should I ever need to fire my Judge. A couple of .410 rounds should stop an intruder without killing them, but may leave them wishing for death.

    Anyhow, shooting to kill is not the first option and should only be exercised when no alternative is available.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 07-13-2011 at 03:56 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Skid and M-Taliesin,

    In NC, we have the right to use deadly force to prevent or defend against someone attempting to illegally enter our homes if we fear they may be intent on committing a felony or doing us bodily harm.

    You don't need to see a weapon. The mere fact that someone is forcing entry into your abode in an unauthorized manner is reason enough.

    HOWEVER, there is a weird little "catch" to NC law, and that is once the BGs have gained entry to your home, and are inside, you MAY NOT use deadly force to protect your property. You can ONLY use deadly force to defend yourself against a deadly threat...

    So you can shoot them through the door or window if they are trying to jimmy your door, or kick it in, but once inside your house, you need to be sure they have the ability to be a deadly threat to justify deadly force. Silly, huh?

    All that said, we DO have the ability to effect a limited "citizens arrest" in NC, of we see someone in the process of committing a felony. We may not move the suspects (not even ONE step), but we may use whatever method is effective to detain them until LEOs can come to the scene...

    Of course, as is the case with almost ALL law in NC, these "rules" are open to broad interpretation by the DA and courts, and often, when a law-abiding citizen is trying to do the right thing in defending themselves against obvious thuggery and premeditated criminal activity, the citizen will be "given a pass" even if they technically "broke the law" procedurally.

    Sometimes "selective enforcement" can be good--especially when it is used regarding stupid, silly, or nonsensical laws...

    A possibly unfortunate outcome of this event may be that the homeowner CAN legally be sued by the thugs for civil damages based on their detention, or feelings of being threatened by his gun. Our "Civil Immunity" part of "Castle Doctrine" law doesn't go into effect until December 1, 2011. Hopefully, if these thugs or their families attempt this sort of frivolous suit, the judge will toss it out, and perhaps even fine or otherwise sanction them for bringing a frivolous suit. But in NC, you never know. Sometimes the courts down here take pity on unsuccessful thugs and robbers by giving them the opportunity to collect a civil settlement in lieu of the loot they were denied by armed homeowners...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-13-2011 at 04:13 PM.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member spinner's Avatar
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    box of worms

    It seems this opened a box of worms. I'll have to say every situation will call for for a different reaction. But if it were me and 3 thugs were kicking in my door and I felt that myself and my family were in danger I would shoot to kill, hope I did good so there was only one side to the story, and deal with the courts appropriately. I would have to assume that if their kicking in a door it's not to ask for directions. I am not going to hope or guess if their not going to hurt my family.

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    Regular Member CDT COX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner View Post
    It seems this opened a box of worms. I'll have to say every situation will call for for a different reaction. But if it were me and 3 thugs were kicking in my door and I felt that myself and my family were in danger I would shoot to kill, hope I did good so there was only one side to the story, and deal with the courts appropriately. I would have to assume that if their kicking in a door it's not to ask for directions. I am not going to hope or guess if their not going to hurt my family.


    I hope you never have to draw your weapon
    Last edited by CDT COX; 07-15-2011 at 03:33 PM.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    what dreamer said
    do we want to mention the sexual assault part
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    DRT Meaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Smith45acp View Post
    Skid what is DRT?
    Dead Right There

    Goes along with Tango Uniform (TU) or Toes Up.

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    I know we are all friends here, but we still have to watch what we say on this PUBLIC forum. As law abiding citizens using our firearms for self defense, we NEVER shoot to kill. That is premeditated murder. We shoot to stop the threat. Whether that means 1 round that accidentally misses or the entire mag center mass will depend on a case by case situation. I just if any of y'all find yourselves in that situation, you keep your head on straight and use good judgement.

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    Regular Member TrailRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner View Post
    It seems this opened a box of worms. I'll have to say every situation will call for for a different reaction. But if it were me and 3 thugs were kicking in my door and I felt that myself and my family were in danger I would shoot to kill, hope I did good so there was only one side to the story, and deal with the courts appropriately. I would have to assume that if their kicking in a door it's not to ask for directions. I am not going to hope or guess if their not going to hurt my family.
    A box of worms, under the right circumstances, could be beneficial. Fishing, perhaps. A can of bees sucks under all circumstances. Who in their right mind wants to open a can of bees?

    At any rate, it's important to protect yourself from civil suits or wrongful death suits until Castle Doctrine goes into effect. NC isn't a terribly liberal place, but stating that you will shoot to kill in a situation could potentially expose you to charges of premeditated. It's better to say that you will shoot to stop. It's a semantics game, yes, but better safe than sorry.
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  17. #17
    Regular Member spinner's Avatar
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    I get your point

    At any rate, it's important to protect yourself from civil suits or wrongful death suits until Castle Doctrine goes into effect. NC isn't a terribly liberal place, but stating that you will shoot to kill in a situation could potentially expose you to charges of premeditated. It's better to say that you will shoot to stop. It's a semantics game, yes, but better safe than sorry. I get your point, but in the case of drawing a weapon in this scenario this is not a western on TV. where you shoot the gun out of his hand or nick his shoulder. So I go back to my original point of shoot to kill, so unless your Doc Holiday how else would you shoot? Shoot to miss, shoot to hurt, shoot cause it's fun, shoot cause you finally get to. You can say shoot to stop if that makes you sleep better, or it's politically correct, or it sounds better according to what ever statue in the law your looking at, but if you shoot at some one what do you expect to happen to him? And AOSAILOR were talking about a specific scenario of 3 thugs kicking in the door of your house, so IANAL but I'd like to know what law school you went to where this would be premeditated murder. And to quote you " As law abiding citizens using our firearms for self defense, we NEVER shoot to kill " if you don't think you might not kill some one if you shoot them your wrong. If you don't want to take that chance get your self an air soft gun... This was all related to an article of something that happened, no one here is a phsyco and is looking for a fight or wants to kill any one. I don't carry a weapon because I WANT to shoot any one. In a perfect word no one would ever have to feel threatened enough to have to draw his gun. And I hope in my life time I will never have too either. Show me an article in the paper where it doesn't say ( Burglar breaks into house, home owner kills suspect, dies from gun shot wound. ) or does it say ( Burglar breaks into house, home owner stops suspect, dies from stoppage ). Were all adults here can we just what we mean or what we think without having to to be so PC.

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    Obviously SPINNER, you didnt get my point. And to answer your question; Charlotte School of Law is the law school I attended where you running around on public forums telling everybody that you plan to shoot to kill, can be used to convict you with premeditated murder. You don't seem to understand that this is a PUBLIC forum, anybody can come and read these comments, even a half decent prosecutor who knows what they are looking for. Hows this for a scenario? two bad guys break into your home and you shoot them in self defense. (Initial investigation deemed it a good shoot) During the investigation some researcher in the DA's office comes across this forum and subpoenas your account info for all blogs and forums you subscribe to. Now lookie here, there are at least two separate posts from you stating that you plan to kill anybody that would break into your home..... What do you think just happened to your "self defense" shooting?

    Now yes, while I train to "shoot to stop the threat", that might mean whoever I may have to shoot in self defense may die, actually with my training and accuracy, there is a pretty good chance that will happen. Even though I know death may happen in a self defense shooting, I don't plan to kill anybody, I plan to do what it takes to keep me alive!


    But hey, you keep acting like a badass. I just hope you never find yourself having to use your gun in self defense, your case may end up giving us law abiding citizens a bad name.
    Last edited by aosailor; 07-16-2011 at 06:09 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member spinner's Avatar
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    OK laywer

    Ok Mr. self appointed lawyer of my actions, Ideas, what I should or shouldn't think or say, and all around good guy for social justice and captain for the thought police. First of all even if you do have a law degree, so does Obama and I wouldn't give you 5 cent for the paper it's printed on. 2nd I think for your scenario to work and it be considered premeditated I would have to go out invite thugs to my house, convince them to kick in my door and then shoot upon entering cause 1st degree murder under NC. law in short says ( North Carolina has a very traditional conception of first degree murder. First degree murder was historically murder that required malice aforethought and premeditation, that was evidenced by poisoning, lying in wait etc. In addition, First Degree Murder can be proved if someone, in the course of committing another violent felony – such as robbery or burglary – inadvertently kills a bystander or victim. ) I'd put the whole thing but your a lawyer and you know the rest. Or for the rest of my life I can just sit in front of my door and wait for thugs to kick it in, and even then I don't know because you say murder , I say protecting my house and family but IANAL like you. If I said when these 3 guys were coming in and I saw guns would that make you feel better, or should shoot to stop and then wait , then If BG 1 lifts his arm then shoot him again and so on down the line and keep repeating the process until their dead no matter how many times or shots it takes it took. Either way their dead your way sounds more dangerous. I just called my neighbor who is a cop and asked him. ( believe me or not I don't care ) He said when I pull my weapon it's because I feel threatened enough to and my life is in jeopardy. When I pull my weapon I totally expect to and intend to kill the person I'm aiming at. I asked him shoot to kill or shoot to stop the threat? His words " you can put lipstick on a pig , but it's still a pig , call it what you want but if I didn't have the intention of killing him I wound not un-holster it ". I started this thread by actually asking a question. I don't see how 3 words said 2 different ways makes me a badass. and if you read my reply I said I wished I never have to be in that situation. so I don't know why you have such a big stick up your ass for me but I wish you'd get it out. You say with your training you would shoot center mass and they would most likely die. I say shoot center mass and aim to kill. you say that's apples and oranges, I say that's 6 of 1 half dozen of the other. God Bless.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Spinner,

    You are wrong. I stand by what the other posts have said.

    Your attitude is a MASSIVE criminal AND civil prosecution waiting to happen if you should ever be so unfortunate as to have to defend yourself with deadly force. Not to mention the MASSIVE potential for setting back NC self-defense rights for all the rest of us that could ensue from said lawsuits.

    I hope you never have to draw your firearm.

    And I pray you NEVER have the opportunity to speak to the press on matters of self defense or NC law.

    Stay safe. Because if you ever have to defend yourself, you're going to have a LOT to answer for, and I hope you can afford a REALLY good lawyer...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-16-2011 at 10:08 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Spinner,

    You are wrong. I stand by what the other posts have said.

    Your attitude is a MASSIVE criminal AND civil prosecution waiting to happen if you should ever be so unfortunate as to have to defend yourself with deadly force. Not to mention the MASSIVE potential for setting back NC self-defense rights for all the rest of us that could ensue from said lawsuits.

    I hope you never have to draw your firearm.

    And I pray you NEVER have the opportunity to speak to the press on matters of self defense or NC law.

    Stay safe. Because if you ever have to defend yourself, you're going to have a LOT to answer for, and I hope you can afford a REALLY good lawyer...
    +1000 % on this one. This guy clearly doesn't understand what they are trying to point out to him.
    Walk softly and carry a large caliber.

  22. #22
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    How does this sound?

    Like a lot of folks, I don't always agree with everything said or done around me, and I have my own opinion of how things should or shouldn't be, and/or how I would have acted in a particular situation. But it is just that, an OPINION. Everyone of us has one. I enjoy and look forward to the experiences and updates on OCDO by those of us that live in the real world and have real life experiences to share with the rest of us.

    My point is this: If anyone wants to argue back and forth with someone like 8 year old kids about which one is right or wrong, why not do it on the private message section of the forum, quit tying up this section and leave the rest of us out of your petty squabbles.

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    Spinner, if you were able to look through your own ego for a moment you would see that I was trying to give you some friendly advice. We live in a litigious society, people have been sued for things as petty as the caliber size or whether or not they used hollow points in defensive shooting cases. I promise you, if you are ever to use your weapon in a legal defensive shooting situation, your words here will bite you in the ass. I'm just trying to help a fellow law abiding citizen not become a court system victim....



    P.S. dont get your legal advice from cops, no matter how close you live to them. Not only are most cops ignorant of the laws (ironic, I know) it is illegal for them to give legal advice. And trust me, the law degree I printed off the internet cost me much more than 5 cents

  24. #24
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    interesting thread

    Hello, this has been an interesting read. First I spent over 20 year as a paramedic and PA before deciding to try something different. I was offered a job with the State and attended the police academy in Meridian Idaho. You are correct that Police have limited knowledge of the laws and I certainly don't claim to know them all. I have been trained and have to qualify every 6 months with written tests, live firing, and oral testing on USE OF FORCE. I was also trained to shoot a three round burst of two to the chest and one to the head. This has been ingrained in me by the academy and my (now) part-time job as I have gone back to working in the medical field full time. I don't think I have ever got use to wearing the vest....lol

    Dam I have to wear it tomorrow as I have to work swings. I believe the correct wording is I fired until I felt the treat was over, for me it will most likely be the three shot burst but emptying the clip in the stress of the moment would not be to far fetch especially for the lay person. I do believe that if there is only one side to the story than the chances of having a civil suit filed against you would be less. Like the lawyer said the BG will sue you for getting an infection in his gun shot wound just to sue you.

    Not to say bad things about lawyers and our legal system but this is allowed to happen because the lawyers want to make money.

  25. #25
    Regular Member spinner's Avatar
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    68

    Maybe this will help

    Ok AOSAILOR 1st I want to say I don't take anything you say to heart. Good thing this is " almost " still a free country where we have a 1st amendment, we can disagree and that's fine. We all know why we joined this site and what were standing up for. If everyone agreed with everybody all the time in the whole world this would be a boring planet, glad you kept our " disagreement " civil. I've read some pretty bad, personal, foul mouthed post. That being said. I've been reading rules of engagement policies, state constitutions, and case laws. And I've settled on a different term ( THE RIGHT TO EXERCISE AND THE RIGHT TO USE " DEADLY FORCE " AS A MEANS TO PROTECT ONES SELF FROM A THREAT OF INJURY OR BODILY HARM OF THE SAME MEANS ). A quick note. I only asked my neighbor who is a cop his "opinion" on the subject cause he was someone who carries for a living and I could talk to him real quick. I think we all know don't EVER take a cops word as legal advice. So to the point of all this with out admitting defeat, rather I had a revelation. I started asking myself why I use that term rather than one offered by all the people who wrote on this thread. I couldn't remember having this discussion before or even using those 3 words before. Which I know sound weird cause I defended them so vigorously. As I spent more time than I should have on this subject so I just googled " shoot to kill ". Now I know. These 3 words were drilled into our heads in 2005 in a little place called Louisiana during Katrina. Some quick links for then and now from our PROTECTORS. businessmen can shoot to kill during martial law workbench.cadenhead.org/news/.../police-trapped-thousands-new-o.. or just type in shoot to kill orders martial law a good on is INFRAGUARD shoot to kill orders directly from FBI. After remembering what took place there ( the 11 people on the bridge ) or the interview with the national guardsmen who said " I hope no one comes out from around a corner, cause I'd really hate to shoot Americans even though that's our orders if they don't OBEY ). Maybe that's not the right terminology. So how about instead of admitting defeat, or saying that I'm wrong ( cause I hate that even though were all wrong sometimes ), I admit to being mislead and a product of a government phrase that has been used by the media, our military, the higher ups all in the name of national security, keeping us safe all in the name of our best interest. The mentality of do what I say not as I do, do not fear the government were here to help and all the other little quotes and catch phrases we hear. Sorry so long but I wanted to get all this in cause hopefully this will put to rest this discussion. My brain hurts. Hope to agree and disagree with ya again, I can't say it was fun, but it was informative and interesting. God Bless us and help us...

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