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Thread: Open carry at the Detroit zoo?

  1. #1
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Question Open carry at the Detroit zoo?

    It is legal to OC & CC at the Detroit zoo correct?

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    Not only are they both legal, I've OC'd twice this season so far with no issues.

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    I always wondered,is it private property, or public?

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    I'ts public. It's funded by a tri-county mileage in addition to private donations.


    "On February 18, 2006, the Detroit City Council voted to shut down the zoo as part of budget cuts, being unable to reach an agreement with the Detroit Zoological Society to take over the park and a legislative grant having expired that day. An uproar ensued and the Council, on March 1, 2006, voted to transfer operations to the Detroit Zoological Society with a promised $4 million grant from the Michigan Legislature. The city retained ownership of the assets, including the Detroit Zoological Institute in Royal Oak and the Belle Isle Nature Zoo in Detroit. The Society is responsible for governance, management and operations, including creating a plan to raise the money needed to keep the facilities operating for generations to come. On August 5, 2008 voters in Macomb, Oakland, and Wayne counties overwhelmingly passed a zoo tax that will raise fifteen million dollars a year for the zoo, approximately half the zoo's budget."

  5. #5
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Are they an "authority"?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Depends what happens in the CADL case.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Maintain situational awareness in the primate area...lol

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-safety-is-...
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  8. #8
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Cool oh well!!

    I just CC'd wanted to enjoy myself and not worry about a situation with wife and kids with me. Sorry guys chickened out! Still not that comfortable OC'ing yet.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Mack View Post
    I just CC'd wanted to enjoy myself and not worry about a situation with wife and kids with me. Sorry guys chickened out! Still not that comfortable OC'ing yet.
    It takes some time for many of us.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member TheGrabber's Avatar
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    Not sure about CC because I was there last month and on the sign next to the prices outside the gate was this:
    Read the final sentence
    I'm not a lawyer, psychologist, or LEO. This means, don't rely on my opinion to work for you.
    But I am a railroad conductor.
    “Breathes their a man with a soul so dead, that does not thrill to the sound of a passing train?”

  11. #11
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrabber View Post
    Not sure about CC because I was there last month and on the sign next to the prices outside the gate was this:
    Read the final sentence
    That dog won't hunt. No teeth.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Yeah. I can post a sign on the front of my house that says it has a seating capacity of 2,500.

    Plus. MCL 28.425o(f) says the lettering must be at least 1 inch high. That didn't look that big.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Yeah. I can post a sign on the front of my house that says it has a seating capacity of 2,500.

    Plus. MCL 28.425o(f) says the lettering must be at least 1 inch high. That didn't look that big.
    Use the bricks as a reference for size, they are about 2.5" high, so I would say the letters are at least 1" in height. But I am with you and venator the sign has no teeth, seeing as how the zoo isn't "an entertainment facility seating more than 2,500".
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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    Doesn't have to be "permanent" seating.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasher View Post
    Doesn't have to be "permanent" seating.
    AGO says it does.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Why not just OC to be on the safe side ?
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    Benjamin Franklin

    When seconds count, the Police are just minutes away !!

  17. #17
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    AGO says it does.
    We've all been getting pretty lax with forum rule #5 lately.

    Bronson

    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10195.htm

    STATE OF MICHIGAN
    JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, ATTORNEY GENERAL
    CONCEALED WEAPONS:
    FIREARMS:
    LAW ENFORCEMENT:
    MUNICIPALITIES:
    POLICE:
    Outdoor park as "entertainment facility" constituting gun-free zone established by Concealed Pistol Licensing Act
    A municipal outdoor recreation park does not, by itself, constitute an "entertainment facility" within the meaning of section 5o(1)(f) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, and thus is not a gun-free zone as established by that statute.

    Opinion No. 7120
    December 4, 2002

    Honorable Mike Kowall
    State Representative
    The Capitol
    Lansing, Michigan 48913

    You have asked whether a municipal outdoor recreation park, by itself, constitutes an "entertainment facility" within the meaning of section 5o(1)(f) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act that creates gun-free zones.

    We understand that by the use of the term "outdoor recreation park" you mean a natural area of land and water, consisting of lawns, trees, gardens, picnic tables, baseball diamonds, tennis courts, ponds, lakes, or rivers.

    The Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 et seq, regulates the possession and carrying of concealed pistols. The Act prohibits persons from carrying a concealed pistol unless they have been licensed in accordance with the provisions of that Act. Amendatory 2000 PA 381 made significant changes to the Act. Section 5b(7) sets forth specific qualifications a person must possess in order to receive a license to carry a concealed pistol and further provides that a county concealed weapon licensing board "shall issue a license" to an applicant who meets those requirements. The Act also provides that a person who is issued a license under the Act may carry a concealed pistol "anywhere in this state" except in certain designated classes of locations listed in section 5o of the Act. Section 5c(2). Those excepted locations, commonly referred to as "gun free zones," include the following:
    (f) An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
    The statutory term "entertainment facility" is not defined by the Legislature. The question therefore arises whether a municipal outdoor park, as described in your request, constitutes an entertainment facility for purposes of the gun-free zones created by section 5o(1)(f) of the Act. Words not defined by the Legislature are to be given their generally understood meaning consistent with the intent of the Legislature. Royal Globe Ins Co v Frankenmuth Mutual Ins Co, 419 Mich 565, 573; 357 NW2d 652 (1984). Courts will consult dictionaries to ascertain the meaning of undefined statutory terms unless the legislative intent may be discerned from the statute itself. People v Stone, 463 Mich 558, 563; 621 NW2d 702 (2001). The term "entertainment" is defined as an act to divert, amuse or to cause someone's time to pass agreeably, such as a concert. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (1964). The term "facility" is defined as something built or constructed to perform some particular function. Id.

    A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f) of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that the term "entertainment facility" constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons, or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons. Since the Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed, such a facility could consist of a bandshell, amphitheater, or similar structure, provided it has the required, known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more. This reading of section 5o(1)(f) is supported by the legislative history of 2000 HB 4530, enacted as 2000 PA 231. Both House Legislative Analyses, HB 4530, June 8, 1999, and January 4, 2001, state that HB 4530 would "[p]rohibit a licensee from carrying a concealed weapon in certain public places, such as a school, theater, sports arena, library, or hospital." There is no mention in either bill analysis that an outdoor recreation park, by itself, would constitute a gun-free zone. It is appropriate to rely on the legislative history because of the ambiguity in the statutory language. Luttrell v Dep't of Corr, 421 Mich 93, 103; 365 NW2d 74 (1985).

    While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act's list of gun-free zones, it chose not to do so. An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to a building or other structure. Accordingly, if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure that has the required seating capacity, that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f) of the Act.

    Finally, section 5o of the Act is a penal statute that must be strictly construed unless the Legislature indicates otherwise. MCL 750.2; People v Gilbert, 414 Mich 191, 211; 324 NW2d 834 (1982). There is nothing in the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act or in its legislative history to suggest that this statute be construed in a manner different from the plain language adopted by the Legislature.

    It is my opinion, therefore, that a municipal outdoor recreation park does not, by itself, constitute an "entertainment facility" within the meaning of section 5o(1)(f) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, and thus is not a gun-free zone as established by that statute.

    JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM
    Attorney General
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Bronson:

    Even if The Facility were to Qualify as Exempted under 5o(1)(f) of The Act 372 of 1927, The Facility will, never-the-less, Continue to be Lawful for Open Carry under MCL 750.234d(2)(c), for Those Persons with a Michigan Concealed Pistol License.

    aadvark

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    Sure, he knows that, he was just providing a cite, and pointing out that we have been slacking as to rule 5 lately. He's right, we have been a little bit sloppy lately.

  20. #20
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Bronson:

    Even if The Facility were to Qualify as Exempted under 5o(1)(f) of The Act 372 of 1927, The Facility will, never-the-less, Continue to be Lawful for Open Carry under MCL 750.234d(2)(c), for Those Persons with a Michigan Concealed Pistol License.

    aadvark
    Well assuming they don't have a liquor license anyone with a lawfully owned gun can open carry there.

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the fol- lowing:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution. (b) A church or other house of religious worship. (c) A court. (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena. (f) A day care center. (g) A hospital. (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of
    1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    I see nothing about seating capacity or entertainment facility (theatre sort of but still the zoo is definitely not a theatre).
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    sometimes they have a cash bar at the zoo.

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    Liquor/Wine: The Detroit Zoo is a licensed liquor premises. Liquor, beer and wine may not be brought into the Detroit Zoo from outside sources. Liquor, beer and wine may not be removed from the Detroit Zoo.

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    great policy, encourage people to slam their drink right before they leave.

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    OC only with CPL then. Gotta have it.
    Last edited by scot623; 07-14-2011 at 10:32 PM.

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    We've all been getting pretty lax with forum rule #5 lately.

    Bronson

    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10195.htm
    Thanks, I was thinking the same thing.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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