Questions about showing ID when OC

spiderjohn · Jul 13, 2011

I am taking my CHP class this week and in the first class it was mentioned that if I have my CHP and a LEO requests to see my ID and permit, I am obligated to show it.

I am planning on mostly OC'ing....what is the law in NC about showing ID to a LEO if no law or anything has been broken. ie- if I am OC and just walking down the street and a LEO wants to see my ID. Am I obligated to show it?

Does this change once I have my CHP and am open carrying...am I required by law to show?

Thanks for your insight.

Fallschirjmäger · Jul 13, 2011

Judging from the .pdf file located here....

Any individual who has applied for and has been issued a concealed handgun permit
must follow certain regulations concerning its use. Not only must the individual carry the
permit along with proper identification whenever the handgun is being carried concealed,
but he/she must also inform any law enforcement officer who approaches him/her that
he/she is in possession of a permit and a concealed handgun. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-
415.11(a) Failure to do so is a first offense infraction and subjects the permittee to
payment of a fine of up to $100.00. However, in lieu of paying a fine for the first offense,
the individual may choose to surrender his or her permit. Any subsequent offense shall be
punishable as a Class 2 Misdemeanor. Any individual who violates any other standards for
the carrying of a concealed handgun with a permit is guilty of a Class 2 Misdemeanor. Any
person who has not been issued a valid permit but carries a concealed handgun, is guilty of
committing a Class 2 Misdemeanor for the first offense, and any subsequent offenses are
Class I Felonies. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-415.21(a-b)

If you have an objection to the local constabulary knowing your address, then you can always confound them with a Passport Card.
Inexpensive, easy to apply for, and it lasts for years.

No address is represented on the card.

asullivangarner · Jul 13, 2011

Fallschirmjäger,

Good info. I know the law about CC, but this is the first I have heard of the passport card. Makes great sense, just paper clip the CC permit and the passport card together and present them as required.

Later,

asg

Link to Passport Card: http://tinyurl.com/2c3devm

First item should be the correct page.

dmatting · Jul 13, 2011

spiderjohn said:
I am taking my CHP class this week and in the first class it was mentioned that if I have my CHP and a LEO requests to see my ID and permit, I am obligated to show it.

I am planning on mostly OC'ing....what is the law in NC about showing ID to a LEO if no law or anything has been broken. ie- if I am OC and just walking down the street and a LEO wants to see my ID. Am I obligated to show it?

Does this change once I have my CHP and am open carrying...am I required by law to show?

Thanks for your insight.

The CC laws only apply to carrying concealed and do not have an impact on OC. You do not need to carry your CHP while OCing. You have no obligation to show your ID if you are walking down the street chewing gum, and you have no obligation if you are OCing and have done nothing wrong. If asked for ID or questioned at all by a LEO, ask if you are being detained. The answer will likely be no at which point you say "have a good day" and walk away.

spiderjohn · Jul 13, 2011

dmatting said:
The CC laws only apply to carrying concealed and do not have an impact on OC. You do not need to carry your CHP while OCing. You have no obligation to show your ID if you are walking down the street chewing gum, and you have no obligation if you are OCing and have done nothing wrong. If asked for ID or questioned at all by a LEO, ask if you are being detained. The answer will likely be no at which point you say "have a good day" and walk away.

Thanks everyone- makes sense. I was concerned that if i had my CHP but were OC i'd have to show my id.

Dreamer · Jul 14, 2011

Fallschirmjäger said:
If you have an objection to the local constabulary knowing your address, then you can always confound them with a Passport Card.
Inexpensive, easy to apply for, and it lasts for years.

No address is represented on the card.

Well, the only problem with your theory is that in NC, our CHP cards have you raddress already printed on them, so not showing a DL isn't going to keep that information confidential...

http://www.usacarry.com/north_carolina_concealed_carry_permit_information.html

Citizen · Jul 14, 2011

Wow, you didn't ask an easy one.

First, I am not a lawyer.

Next, lets assume you're not required to have a permit to OC.

Now, we are getting into the realm of the 4th Amendment (search and seizure). And, the 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination.

An identity document (ID) during a foot encounter is different from a driver's license during a traffic stop. Both might be the same document. But, the reason for handing it over during a traffic stop is to prove you are licensed to drive. I've not heard of a state that didn't compel you under penalty to hand over your license upon request or demand to the cop during a traffic stop.

Voluntary Situations: A cop can request you verbally identify yourself or request you provide an identity document. This would be a consensual situation where you have the option to go along with his request, or refuse his request. At your choosing. With no legal ramifications either way. Basically a cop would be asking as opposed to demanding.

Involuntary Situations:

There are Supreme Court of the US (SCOTUS) cases that say a cop must have sufficient objective circumstances to reasonably believe a person is involved in a crime or offense before he can compel a person to involuntarily remain. See Terry vs Ohio at the link below as a starting point. This level of suspicion is called reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS). This type of encounter is called variously Terry Stop/stop/detention/detainment. It is a seizure (of the person) for the purposes of the 4th Amendment.

There is a SCOTUS case that says that before a cop can demand identity from a suspect, the cop must have RAS of a crime. See Brown vs Texas.

There is a SCOTUS case that says a state statute requiring a person to identify himself to cop when the cop has RAS of a crime is constitutional. See Hiibel vs 6th Judicial District Court. This was a 5th Amendment case where SCOTUS ruled it does not violate the right against self-incrimination for a state statute to compel a person to identify himself. Interesting side note about Hiibel. You can actually see the encounter between Larry Hiibel and the police that led to this case. The video is on YouTube. Just type in his name.

There is a SCOTUS case that invalidated as unconstitutional because of vagueness a California statute that required a person to provide proof of identity (document) to a cop. The statute didn't say what sorts of proof would satisfy the statute, thus the unconstitutionality. See Kolender vs Lawson. Now, I have read at least one state statute that solved the vagueness issue by specifying what type of identity documents had to be shown if the suspect had those documents on him at the time of the police encounter.

So, there you go. RAS + statute, or local ordinance, or perhaps a court-recognized common-law requirement that a person identify himself to a cop.

Lets say you know to a dead moral certainty (and are correct) that there is no law, ordinance, court opinion, etc. in the exact jurisdiction where the cop demands you identify yourself. Legally you could refuse identity all day long. You might still get arrested, found not guilty, and have legal bills. But, you'd be within the law to refuse.

Now, lets say there is a statute that requires you to identify yourself--verbally or document--to a cop who has RAS on you.

Remember, according to SCOTUS in Brown vs Texas, the cop has to have reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime before he can seize you and make the identity demand.

Now, you might know with complete certainty that you're up to nothing and haven't done anything. But, its not what you were actually doing that counts. Its whether the cop has reason to suspect. Whether he has observed something, or received a report of something.

Here's the tricky part: How on earth is an OCer going to know whether the cop really has genuine RAS or not? There are reams of court opinions about whether this or that set of circumstances added up to enough to be genuine RAS. You'd be surprised what kinds of things courts have allowed as being suspicious enough to allow a temporary seizure of the person. I read one case, Christian vs Commonwealth, where the detainee was carrying his gun in his hand from his car into his apartment building. The dissent pointed out that since he didn't have a permit, this was the only way he could carry the gun. Nope, the VA Supreme Ct or Court of Appeals ruled the detention lawful because there was a police drug sting going on in the area at the same time, it was a drug area, the sting command post was in his apartment building (possible danger to the cops in the command post), and he had a gun. Go figure.

So, first, you have the problem of knowing what the cop has seen or received a report about (911 call—what was reported by the 911 caller? Was it a true report? Was it embellished?). Then, you have the problem of guessing whether a court has already ruled similar circumstances amount to RAS. Then you have the problem of guessing whether the judge you might face will rule RAS existed or not. And, all of this assumes the cop tells you his RAS truthfully, without stretching, lying, or withholding something, and that he won't stretch, lie, or embellish later; and, I've never seen a court opinion that required a cop to tell his RAS to the detainee or to be truthful to a detainee.

Now, if there is a statute or ordinance or something that requires you to identify yourself to a cop, and you guess wrong about the RAS, here come the chrome bracelets for sure. Even if you guess right, you might still get arrested, but released later. Its what the cop and later your judge thinks, not what you think.

So, its more than just whether there is a statute or not. There is also the whole question of RAS, and trying to guess whether the RAS is genuine. There is a distinction here: the law is one thing. How you apply it during a police encounter is something else.

For myself, I plan to comply with an identity demand while politely verbally refusing consent. This way, I'm not in violation if there happens to be a local ordinance requiring me to identify myself that I don't know about. See the videos at the link below for an explanation about refusing consent.

Cited cases and links:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?55914-Get-Your-4th-and-5th-Amendment-Resources-Here!!&highlight=inchoate

Fallschirjmäger · Jul 14, 2011

Dreamer said:
Well, the only problem with your theory is that in NC, our CHP cards have you address already printed on them, so not showing a DL isn't going to keep that information confidential...

Yeah, I figgered as much (oh well).
Still, if Officer Friendly wants to confiscate something "for my own protection" of course, I'd much rather walk off with having a PassCard in hand than my driving license. In GA the address is displayed as well, but if you move you're not required to renew the card. It also doesn't have a picture on it, just a fingerprint.
I see one is required to notify the Sheriff within 30 days upon moving, so I'd probably go with "No, that's not my current address, I moved last weekend. The new address? Well, I'm not really sure, it's a friends house and I just know where they live; not their address."

bc.cruiser · Jul 15, 2011

ID request

Well, here's my farthing's worth...
You must immediately inform the LEO you have a CHP if the encounter is in any way businesslike (Apparently, thanks to Cumberland county case law this means even if you are not armed). You must have the CHP and ID with you only if you are actually carrying a concealed handgun. As far as responding to a demand for ID while OCing, NC is not a 'stop and ID' state (unlike NV, for instance). If the LEO persists, it's your call to comply. Standing your ground and making him prove the validity of a Terry stop may not be in your best interest (Our applause may be poor compensation for any inconveniences you suffer). MOST of the time I would comply, if only because I am carrying a concealed handgun in addition to what you can see.

CharlieOneFourDelta · Jul 28, 2011

"No, that's not my current address, I moved last weekend. The new address? Well, I'm not really sure, it's a friends house and I just know where they live; not their address."

Just be cautious. In NC you might not have to ID yourself, but usually lying to the police is a crime. I'd just say, "I'd prefer not to provide that information, officer." From my years in chasing bad guys, the reply you gave is evasive as hell (even if it is innocent) and it would make me fish around more to try to find out more.

I was required to turn myself in a few years ago because the ex claimed I assaulted her. (It was dismissed a few weeks later when she admitted she did it out of revenge). The cop who transported me from the county I live to the neighboring county where the warrant was asked me for my name, DOB, address, ssn, employer, who my father and mother was before he turned me over to the receiving deputy in the county of the warrant. I gave him my name and DOB, and refused all the other questions politely. He threw a little hissy fit and cussed a little and slammed his clipboard down before he stomped off to his patrol car to leave. He told the other deputy to "see that I was at the end of the line to see the judge." The receiving deputy was real professional and didnt do that.

With your name and DOB thay can pull up all the other info if you are in the system. If you ain't, then name and DOB is ID enough.

Smith45acp · Jul 30, 2011

No, you don't have to provide ID unless you're CC'ing or driving a vehicle.

But if you refuse you may be arrested anyway

Once while OC'ing I refused and walked away with no issues, the second time I was arrested in a very public place and it kinda ruined my weekend

Jail sucks

Questions about showing ID when OC

spiderjohn

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Fallschirjmäger

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asullivangarner

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dmatting

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spiderjohn

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Dreamer

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Citizen

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Fallschirjmäger

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bc.cruiser

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CharlieOneFourDelta

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Smith45acp

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