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Thread: Someone in Texas but wants to know ...

  1. #1
    Regular Member JBarL's Avatar
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    Someone in Texas but wants to know ...

    I have a Brother and a very good friend that live in michigan, I drive up there would I be able to open carry or is it going down the tubes there. please let me know thanks in advanced

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Do you have a Texas concealed weapon's license? (or any state's license, for that matter)...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  3. #3
    Regular Member JBarL's Avatar
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    Answer to question

    TheQ,
    Yes I do I am a Certified NRA instructor and also waiting to go through State CHL instructor class...

  4. #4
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    In this case, you are legal to OC in MI. For the most part, I wouldn't expect much hassle. Most jurisdictions are on board with the legality of OC.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    The implication here is that you have to have a CPL from another state to OC in Michigan, is that correct?

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    The implication here is that you have to have a CPL from another state to OC in Michigan, is that correct?
    From your home state, YES.

    If you live in Ohio and have a PA license you're a no go in Michigan.

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    IIRC you will still be subject to the federal 1,000 foot gun free school zones.

    Apparently, they like making headlines about school shootings, it makes good press, and is a great way to blame gun owners for something else we didn't do.

  8. #8
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    From your home state, YES.

    If you live in Ohio and have a PA license you're a no go in Michigan.
    For concealed carry, but not for OC. If you have a CPL from a state other than your own, you can possess a handgun and OC in Michigan. Janet Kukuk law.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12. (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.
    (b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.
    (c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.
    (d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.
    (e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course
    of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.
    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    (g) The regular and ordinary transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.
    (h) Purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm. As used in this subdivision, “antique
    firearm” means that term as defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual’s possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.
    (2) The amendatory act that added subsection (1)(h) shall be known and may be cited as the “Janet Kukuk act”.

    All they would need is a permit from any state to be able to open carry here. They could not open carry in a car, however, they would be exempt from:

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that
    firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 07-14-2011 at 03:52 PM.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  10. #10
    Regular Member JBarL's Avatar
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    Thanks all for the replies it was very Helpful. I just wanna be clear on the Laws they differ from State to State. Now if I can only get My State to make a law on Open Carry that would be better. but we Are trying. Just the politions make you wanna

  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Not only that, but as a holder of a Texas Residential permit, you may also OC in areas that are no concealed carry zones. See: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf


    "MCL 28.425o provides that a person with a valid
    CPL shall not carry a concealed pistol in a pistolfree zone.
    First offense is a state civil infraction.
    The following is a list of the premises (excluding
    parking lots) included in the statute:


    School or school property, except a parent or
    legal guardian who is dropping off or picking up a
    child and the pistol is kept in the vehicle


     Public or private day care center


     Sports arena or stadium


     A bar or tavern where sale and consumption of
    liquor by the glass is the primary source of
    income (does not apply to owner or employee of
    the business).


     Any property or facility owned or operated by a
    church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other
    place of worship, unless authorized by the
    presiding official


     An entertainment facility that has a seating
    capacity of 2,500 or more


     A hospital


     A dormitory or classroom of a community college,
    college, or university


     A casino (R 432.1212, MCL 432.202)


    Note, the above statute applies to CPL holders
    carrying a concealed pistol. If the CPL holder is
    carrying a non-concealed pistol, the statute does
    not apply. As noted above, the unlawful
    premises listed in MCL 750.234d do not apply to
    persons with a valid CPL. Therefore, a person
    with a valid CPL may carry a non-concealed
    pistol in the areas described in
    MCL 28.425o (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(fgt...cl-28-425o.pdf)
    and MCL 750.234d. (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(0ah...l-750-234d.pdf) "


    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-14-2011 at 07:25 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Now I'm a bit confused...

    Can a non-resident OPEN Carry w/o ANY permit/license, whatever? Or is a non-resident required to have a CPL of some sort to OPEN carry?

    Cite's please..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    For concealed carry, but not for OC. If you have a CPL from a state other than your own, you can possess a handgun and OC in Michigan. Janet Kukuk law.

    The Janet Kukuk act is,

    (h) Purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm. As used in this
    subdivision, "antique firearm" means that term as defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931
    PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (2) The amendatory act that added subsection (1)(h) shall be known and may be cited as the "Janet Kukuk
    act".
    Or am I misreading the last paragraph?

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    Now I'm a bit confused...

    Can a non-resident OPEN Carry w/o ANY permit/license, whatever? Or is a non-resident required to have a CPL of some sort to OPEN carry?

    Cite's please..
    No and no.

    A non-MI resident must meet the exemptions in either 28.422 or 28.432 in order to OC under the same restrictions as a MI resident that does NOT have a CPL.

    28.422

    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.

    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).

    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.

    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    28.432

    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; amendatory act as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12.

    (1) Section 2 (Section 2 is 28.422 cited above, Bronson) does not apply to any of the following:

    . . .

    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    Either of the exemptions listed in these two laws will allow a non-MI resident to possess a pistol in MI without having to get a MI Permit to Purchase/Possess and register their pistol here, since that is only allowed for MI residents.

    Alternately a non-MI resident may carry here under the same laws as a MI resident with a CPL if the non-resident has a concealed license from his/her state of residence.

    MCL 750.227 is the law that criminalizes concealed carry or vehicle carry without a concealed license.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    While MCL 750.231a provides a list of exceptions to .227.

    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.

    Sec. 231a.

    (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    So a non-MI resident must have some form of license in order to OC here but it doesn't have to be a resident concealed license from their home state. However the resident license from their home state affords them more options since MI treats it the same as a MI resident license.

    This is why we have the ridiculous situation where a VT resident, where there is no licensing of any kind to purchase, carry, or possess a pistol however you wish, cannot carry a pistol here unless he/she gets a non-resident CPL from some other state, while a resident of the Peoples Republik of Illinois that has a FOID card may OC their pistol in MI under the same restrictions as a MI resident that doesn't have a CPL.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    Or am I misreading the last paragraph?
    You are correct but when most people refer to the "Janet Kukuk act" they are referring to 28.432 in its entirety, which as you noticed isn't quite right.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Wow... And I understand now.

    MI requires some sort of documentation, whether it's a license to purchase (as in the one MI requires if you do not have a CPL) or some form of CPL from your home State, and a non-resident CPL will suffice if OPEN carrying... ((a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    In this case, a VT resident can OPEN carry in MI with a UTAH CFP.

    No wonder LEO is confused...

    As you have a VERY good grasp on these statutes, care to tackle my Other question? http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...anet-Kukuk-Act

  17. #17
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    Wow... And I understand now.

    MI requires some sort of documentation, whether it's a license to purchase (as in the one MI requires if you do not have a CPL) or some form of CPL from your home State, and a non-resident CPL will suffice if OPEN carrying... ((a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    In this case, a VT resident can OPEN carry in MI with a UTAH CFP.

    No wonder LEO is confused...

    As you have a VERY good grasp on these statutes, care to tackle my Other question? http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...anet-Kukuk-Act
    If you are a Michigan Resident you must follow Michigan law and register the pistol (Purchase Permit) to be legal in Michigan.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Even though MCL 28.432 declares MCL 28.422 inapplicable because I am a US citizen and have a CFP from Utah?

    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; amendatory act as “Janet Kukuk act”.
    Sec. 12.

    (1) Section 2 (Section 2 is 28.422) does not apply to any of the following:

    . . .

    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    Last edited by xd shooter; 07-15-2011 at 01:38 PM.

  19. #19
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    Even though MCL 28.432 declares MCL 28.422 inapplicable because I am a US citizen and have a CFP from Utah?
    The statute is ripe for constitutional challege. This has been discussed. No one seems interested in doing so yet and all it would take is a $1,000,000 or so.

    If you have a warchest in place, then challenge it.

    I'm surprised residents of nearby states haven't done so yet.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  20. #20
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    Its the million dollar part that really bugs me.

  21. #21
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    No and no.

    A non-MI resident must meet the exemptions in either 28.422 or 28.432 in order to OC under the same restrictions as a MI resident that does NOT have a CPL.

    28.422



    28.432



    Either of the exemptions listed in these two laws will allow a non-MI resident to possess a pistol in MI without having to get a MI Permit to Purchase/Possess and register their pistol here, since that is only allowed for MI residents.

    Alternately a non-MI resident may carry here under the same laws as a MI resident with a CPL if the non-resident has a concealed license from his/her state of residence.

    MCL 750.227 is the law that criminalizes concealed carry or vehicle carry without a concealed license.



    While MCL 750.231a provides a list of exceptions to .227.



    So a non-MI resident must have some form of license in order to OC here but it doesn't have to be a resident concealed license from their home state. However the resident license from their home state affords them more options since MI treats it the same as a MI resident license.

    This is why we have the ridiculous situation where a VT resident, where there is no licensing of any kind to purchase, carry, or possess a pistol however you wish, cannot carry a pistol here unless he/she gets a non-resident CPL from some other state, while a resident of the Peoples Republik of Illinois that has a FOID card may OC their pistol in MI under the same restrictions as a MI resident that doesn't have a CPL.

    Bronson
    If the non-resident didn't have a resident carry permit they would be exempt from 750.234 and be able to open carry in all those places with any non resident permit. That statue does not require a resident permit simply a license from this state or another.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  22. #22
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    If the non-resident didn't have a resident carry permit they would be exempt from 750.234 and be able to open carry in all those places with any non resident permit. That statue does not require a resident permit simply a license from this state or another.
    Yes, that's what I said. The resident permit is only required to conceal carry and vehicle carry. MI allows a non-resident to use any type of license to purchase, carry, possess, transport a pistol from their home state OR a concealed license from any state in lieu of having to get a MI License to Purchase/Possess and register the pistol(s).

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  23. #23
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Yes, that's what I said. The resident permit is only required to conceal carry and vehicle carry. MI allows a non-resident to use any type of license to purchase, carry, possess, transport a pistol from their home state OR a concealed license from any state in lieu of having to get a MI License to Purchase/Possess and register the pistol(s).

    Bronson
    Sorry must have misread it.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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