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Thread: Would you shoot a minor in self-defense?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Would you shoot a minor in self-defense?

    Recent story from Eastern NC:

    http://www.witn.com/crime/headlines/...125568023.html


    Three teens, two 17 year olds and a 14 year old, held up a couple with a sawed-off shotgun...

    So the question is, would you ask to see the IDs of the muggers if they looked REALLY young before defending yourself with deadly force? Would you hesitate in defending yourself if the attackers appeared to be REALLY young but were OBVIOUSLY armed with a deadly weapon?

    Luckily, these three mini-thugs were stupid enough to walk up to someone in a vehicle and attempt their robbery, so the victims were able to get away without harm. But what if the victims were on foot and didn't have the protection of being inside a vehicle, and the ability to speed away? What if they were in their home, and these child-gangsta's kicked in their door?

    I pose these hypothetical scenarios because they WILL eventually happen. Something weird is going on in NC--we are seeing a dramatic rise in gang-related crime, and an increasingly younger age among violent offenders. Eventually, soon, some kid under the age of 17 is going to get shot by an armed law-abiding citizen, and I'm sure when that happens, there will be a MASSIVE wailing and rending of garments by the media about the fact that a law-abiding citizen shot a "child". Forget the fact that that "child" had a sawed-off shotgun, or was threatening deadly force, or had invaded someones home--I think we ALL know what the media will do with a story like that...

    As people who carry for self-defense, we need to run through these scenarios. We need to be prepared for whatever comes our way--not just by training with our gear, maintaining our firearms, and choosing effective ammo--but also by MENTALLY preparing. We need to be prepared to deal with a deadly threat--REGARDLESS of who is posing it--man, woman, or "child". And we need to be prepared to deal with the LE and media aftermath of such a situation...

    So think about this one, folks. If some kid--a 14-year-old--points a gun at you and tries to rob you, what would you do?
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    OK, kiddies. Go grab the popcorn and sodas, 'cause gramps is gonna tell a war story again.

    So there I was.* Somewhere out in the boonies 'round-about aught-mumblety-something, just north of somewhere, up on a hill overlooking some terrain feature. Or was it the time we was in the city/village/hamlet/town/shell-hole of Whachmacallit? Anyhoo, there we all was, humping up/down/around/towards/away from the terrain feature previously so lovingly described when these two itty-bitty little kids - couldn't have been more than (mumble) years old, came walking/running/skipping up to us holding out something enticing and obviously non-threatening, jabbering away about giving them cigarettes/candy/buying their female relative/farm animal/taking them back home with us, and some dumb FNG newbie goes and squats down and holds up the whole division/regiment/battalion/company/platoon/squad/fire team to jibber-jabber with the little tykes who really were as cute as a button when suddenly those two rug rats do something nefarious and underhanded to shoot/blow up/poison him/some of us/the whole darned group.

    I first heard this story from Og, who said his great-grandfather used to bore them with it every time they stopped to try and build a fire. His great-grandfather probably heard some olde phart tell it 'cause Og's great-grandfather never served a day in his life.

    The point being that little kids, children, youts [sic], and minors have been killing people in war and when committing crimes since probably the third kid was born. And if I have my Bible stories down right, the first kid killed the second kid but not until they were both pretty much grown up.

    If the imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury comes from someone 5 years old or 95 years old, that threat is still the same one. You will get just as killed by some infant pulling the trigger as if some doddering old codger pulled it, or some punk in the prime of his life. In God we trust - everybody else show me your hands! Cognitive dissonance will get you killed.

    So, yes, I'd rather explain to 12 men good and true just why I shot the little altar-boy on his way home from Bibble study to give his poor crippled granny a foot massage because when he came up to me he had something that made me reasonably fear he was going to kill me/seriously wound me and there was no other way to make him stop, than to burden folks with trying to say nice things about me without laughing while shoveling dirt over me.

    stay safe.


    *Mandatory beginning of a war story, as opposed to the mandatory beginning of a fairy (not ferry) tale. If you doubt me you can go look it up.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Yes

    In self defense or in the defense of another, if threatened with a "fear for your life" situation I would shoot.

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    You pay for the choices you make regardless of how old you are. While I would be willing to judge a kid differently based on the situation (such as accidentally killing someone with a gun because their parents didn't teach them that guns aren't toys and are to be respected), they wouldn't be treated any differently than an older criminal threatening my life.

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    touche!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    You pay for the choices you make regardless of how old you are. While I would be willing to judge a kid differently based on the situation (such as accidentally killing someone with a gun because their parents didn't teach them that guns aren't toys and are to be respected), they wouldn't be treated any differently than an older criminal threatening my life.
    that is what i believe as well.
    JP

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    Quote Originally Posted by msg laigaie View Post
    in self defense or in the defense of another, if threatened with a "fear for your life" situation i would shoot.
    absolutely!

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    If faced with the threat of imminent death or serious harm, it doesn't and shouldn't matter how old they are. You have the right to defend your life.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  8. #8
    mattwestm
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    Hah, just posted this link in the NC forum.

    If you are in a car, you might have an opportunity at driving away as long as it won't cause you to get in a wreck. If not, I'm taking the shot. Anyone who is old enough to have an illegally modified shotgun, knows exactly what they are doing. I blame poor parenting skills for things like this. Where were the parents when the kid was robbing people?
    Last edited by mattwestm; 07-14-2011 at 02:50 PM.

  9. #9
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    In a heartbeat!

  10. #10
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Yes, I'd shoot a minor, or a pregnant woman, or a priest, rabbi, or shaman. I'd even shoot my wife if she were a threat.
    Heck, I'd even lend a gun to my ex-, if I thought it'd help

  11. #11
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    Shoot or no shoot

    If no other way out, youbetcha. Its called self preservation.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    I don't care how old a person is, if they are threatening me, I will the appropriate level of force to end the threat.

    Posted using my HTC Evo.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    In this circumstance, absolutely.

    However, we can tell that this story is a fabrication. A 'sawed-off' shotgun is illegal (putting aside an NFA Registered SBS or AOW), therefore, it never happened. Laws make the world perfect. when you make something illegal, it cannot ever happen.

    Come to think of it, space travel would be so much cheaper if we got the Government to outlaw Gravity. Oh, but then that giant gravity-powered fusion reactor in the sky wouldn't work anymore; damn the consequences, lets get stupid!
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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  14. #14
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    The standard in most States is a reasonable fear of an imminent threat to life or limb--mine, one of mine, or some other innocent in the vicinity. I don't care if that reasonable threat is coming from a cute little puppy. If I reasonably believe that said puppy presents a threat to life or limb, the sanitation department will be picking up puppy parts.

  15. #15
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    Cars can't out run bullets

    Don't want to shoot anybody but I see a weapon pointed in our direction, you can count on getting shot.

    Others have mentioned driving off, but you can't out run a bullet and the car offers minimal protection.

    Might as well go on the offensive and cause them to disperse.

  16. #16
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    No matter the age, sex, race, sexual preference or any other category. If you pose a threat to me or my family I WILL put you down. The Idea that no matter what the threat is that you would change your mind to shoot the attacker based on something from the above category. While your six feet under for that mistake I will make sure to use your story as an example to never underestimate the will or ability of ones enemy.
    Last edited by zack991; 07-14-2011 at 09:05 PM.
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  17. #17
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I think the key is not whether you "would" shoot a minor, but whether, in extremis, if you'd have the wherewithal to do so. Would it be a conscious decision? If not, say you were surprised, could your intellectual mind over come any constraints your 'moral mind' had about shooting a kid (or maybe just taking the threat seriously)?

    I'd say given the threat was serious and there was time to consider options or lack of same, it would be just as easy to shoot a deranged and dangerous minor as an adult. But you never know until you're faced with the situation.

    To me, an important consideration would be the penalty for doing so. If it was a blatantly obvious 'good shoot', maybe to save another child from being shot, and there was literally no chance of going to prison or misjudged, that's one thing. I'd probably rather risk getting a minor or moderate 'wound' and not have to shoot (say in driving away) than go to jail for 10 years for it and be a pariah for shooting a kid who was just trying to turn his life around, yada, yada.

    $.02
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 07-14-2011 at 09:11 PM.
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  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    The issue is not one of age. The issue is self-defense.

    Whether 3 or 93, if it's him or me, it'll be him, not me.

    From a practical standpoint, however, I'd stand a vastly greater chance wrestling a firearm from an innocent 3-yr-old than I would a malevolent 33-yr-old.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    To me, an important consideration would be the penalty for doing so. If it was a blatantly obvious 'good shoot', maybe to save another child from being shot, and there was literally no chance of going to prison or misjudged, that's one thing. I'd probably rather risk getting a minor or moderate 'wound' and not have to shoot (say in driving away) than go to jail for 10 years for it and be a pariah for shooting a kid who was just trying to turn his life around, yada, yada.
    The percentage of people who would have the capacity to think about any of that when faced with a split-second decision/situation is nearly zero. By my reckoning, I'd much rather have my son and family visiting in jail for the rest of my life knowing I did the right thing under God than have them visiting my gravesite because I cow-towed to some bleeding-heart law, prosecutor, jury, or judge.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  20. #20
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    Would I Shoot A Minor In Self-defense?"

    No, no. I always try to shoot in C minor.

    Hahahahahahaha. I crack myself up sometimes.


  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Would I Shoot A Minor In Self-defense?"

    No, no. I always try to shoot in C minor.

    Hahahahahahaha. I crack myself up sometimes.

    Man, that's bad. But I did laugh.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Man, that's bad. But I did laugh.
    We used to have quite a bit of fun on this forum. Not sure where it went.

    Jim675 is a master at funny haiku. A fella named Hawkflyer would chip in. As would several others. Seems a lot less now.

    We need more.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    Would I shoot a minor in self defense?

    No, I would shoot said minor in center mass as many times as it took to stop the threat.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    No hesitation

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post

    *Mandatory beginning of a war story, as opposed to the mandatory beginning of a fairy (not ferry) tale. If you doubt me you can go look it up.
    Would you shoot at these minors? Is there really a differance?

    http://tinyurl.com/669y8ml

    I guess you had to be there.


    ~Whitney
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    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  25. #25
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    So think about this one, folks. If some kid--a 14-year-old--points a gun at you and tries to rob you, what would you do?
    This question is interesting. But not too interesting. Everyone is saying 'yes.' For good reason.

    To the more general "Would you shoot a minor in self-defense?", there should be more variation. I've thought about about a particular scenario (inspired by a thread here about some cops who answered a call about a very young kid (~3-4) with a gun). The scenario is that somehow I come into contact with a toddler, a really small and young kid who somehow manages to hold a gun (I can't think of any other way he could be a threat) and who may very well have or has displayed the ability to shoot me.

    The 14 year old robber is an easy one. A gimme, as we can see above.

    The 3 year old kid with a gun, that's a hard one. I'm talking about a normal environment (e.g., U.S., non-war) .

    In same, I would not shoot any tyke. For any reason. Under any circumstances.

    So my answer to "Would you shoot a minor in self-defense?" is, "Yes. But certainly not always. Depends."

    There are some other exceptions I'd make to my self-defense plan. But not too many.





    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    We used to have quite a bit of fun on this forum. Not sure where it went.

    Jim675 is a master at funny haiku. A fella named Hawkflyer would chip in. As would several others. Seems a lot less now.

    We need more.
    Ahh, the good gold days... Remember all those fun times you and LEO 229 had? I think you even won a few, Citizen.

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