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Thread: Message from DNR to Hunter Safety Instructors

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    Message from DNR to Hunter Safety Instructors

    http://dnr.wi.gov/org/es/enforcement...er_7-15-11.pdf

    1. The Department of Natural Resources is not required, nor do we have any plans to modify our current hunter education course of instruction to include any new material or training specific to handguns or carrying a concealed weapon.

    2. Hunter Education Instructors are not authorized to provide any training related to the Concealed Carry Law in their Hunter Education Course

    3. As was the case before, we cannot deny or prevent someone from taking the DNR hunter education course. However, we can advise customers who are interested in taking hunter education to meet the training requirements for concealed carry that they may be better served by taking a course offered by NRA, private business or technical college specific to concealed carry.

    4. If you get questions about what will qualify an individual to have a license to carry a concealed weapon and what fulfills the required training element, please refer those questions to the state Department of Justice. The Department of Justice is the agency responsible for approving or denying concealed weapon license applications.

    5. If you are contacted by past students or others wanting to obtain documentation that they have completed a Wisconsin hunter education course, please advise them to contact the DNR's call center at: 1-888-936-7463 or visit a DNR service center or license vendor to obtain a duplicate.

    6. Conservation Wardens can provide additional information during their hunter education course presentations and more details will be provided as we approach this hunting season.

    Another department seems to have their underwear in a bundle over concealed carry. It's possible that many people may choose Hunter Safety as fulfilling the permit requirements. The DNR has a great opportunity to help those people when they take the course, by allowing any emphasis that pertains to concealed carry. Instead, the Hunter Safety Instructors are supposed to behave as if nothing is new. Is this the DNR's way of "getting back" for the gutting of 167.31?

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    DNR is full of leftists, I expected no less. My hope is that Walker will purge that agency of Sierra Club members, but I'm not holding my breath.
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    In other words, don't do anything at all that might help someone obtain a concealed carry permit. What a shame.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I'm going to disagree with you all.

    It seems DNR is tasked with providing Hunter Safety education. They do that. Their mandate does not cover concealed carry training, whatever that may turn out to be. They are up-front with telling folks that is the situation.

    Now, Wisconsin may decide that a DNR Hunter Safety class will suffice for the edication/training needed to comply with the new CCW regulation - or they may decide it does not. If it qualifies I am sure they will be pleased to see so many "new hunters" signing up. If it does not, they will miss out on an opportunity to gain some small amount of additional revenue.

    What amazes me is that this is OCDO, a site dedicated to Open Carry, and here are a bunch of folks whinging about concealed carry. There are many sites that focus on concealed carry, and they are all atwitter with the impending CCW permit that folks in Wisconsin will be applying for.

    stay safe.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Skidmark,
    With all due respect, this "CCW" bill has a huge effect on Open Carry in this state. Without a permit we are very limited to where we can open carry. I'd encourage you to read the bill before you imply that we are only worried about concealed carry.

    Also, Hunter Safety does comply with the training requirements, it's specifically mentioned in the bill.
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    Is the glass 1/2 empty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    Skidmark,
    With all due respect, this "CCW" bill has a huge effect on Open Carry in this state.
    True, a positive effect.

    Without a permit we are very limited to where we can open carry. I'd encourage you to read the bill before you imply that we are only worried about concealed carry..
    Where you cannot carry openly after the new law that you could before? There were many improvements for open carry as a result of Act 35. Does a non-licensee have as many benefits as a licensee? No, but to license or not is a person's choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    True, a positive effect.



    Where you cannot carry openly after the new law that you could before? There were many improvements for open carry as a result of Act 35. Does a non-licensee have as many benefits as a licensee? No, but to license or not is a person's choice.
    Half full of course...

    Your post is confusing me man. What did you think I was saying?
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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    I'm not surprised by the DNR's position. Hunter's safety was never intended to be anything but that, and to try to alter it to accommodate CC is stepping outside it's purview. The class is offered to 12-year olds, so the material should be relevant to everyone, including that age group. When I sat in with my son's hunter's safety class a dozen or so years ago, there were very few adult participants. Mostly kids of middle school and junior high age. To try to take a hunter's safety course and to throw in concealed carry information of much relevance would require a significant alteration in the curriculum. I think we should simply be happy that, if there is going to be a training requirement for WI CC, that the threshold for acceptable training is a low as it is. We did not get constitutional carry, but we did get about as close as possible within a license/training-required system. It could have been much worse.

    I also agree with Skidmark somewhat. This is, after all, an "open carry" forum and the administrators have been very generous in allowing the WI forum to stray away from that during our excitement and transition period. We should be grateful for their willingness to accommodate us at this time. They could have been hard asses with us, but they weren't. But I assume at some point they would like their forum back on topic, so to speak. I'm sure the fact that Wisconsin was tantamount to "ground zero" for the open carry movement over the past couple of years helped. I hope, that after those who wish to CC begin to do so, the open carry scene in Wisconsin will remain as vigorous as it has been. Now that we will soon have a choice as to manner of carry, it will be interesting to see which choice is being made.
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    Wouldn't it simply make sense to spend a few extra moments on handgun mechanics and safety and some of the Wisconsin Firearms laws as they pertain to concealed carry, and open carry for all that matters? When the class demographics changes away from 12 yr olds and to 60 yr olds, why can't the Hunter Safety course hit on a few more things that are pertinent to concealed carry?

    I am not saying to completely revamped the course towards concealed carry. But I don't think ignoring it is the right thing to do.

  10. #10
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    Take the WisCarry class Shotgun is offering and shut the hell up, i plan to.............take the class.........not the shut the hell up part.

    poor attempt at humor, lost in translation.
    Last edited by McX; 07-15-2011 at 10:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    Take the WisCarry class Shotgun is offering and shut the hell up, i plan to.............take the class.........not the shut the hell up part.
    Where did that come from? I certainly didn't deserve that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I'm going to disagree with you all.

    What amazes me is that this is OCDO, a site dedicated to Open Carry, and here are a bunch of folks whinging about concealed carry. There are many sites that focus on concealed carry, and they are all atwitter with the impending CCW permit that folks in Wisconsin will be applying for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    I also agree with Skidmark somewhat. This is, after all, an "open carry" forum and the administrators have been very generous in allowing the WI forum to stray away from that during our excitement and transition period. We should be grateful for their willingness to accommodate us at this time. They could have been hard asses with us, but they weren't. But I assume at some point they would like their forum back on topic, so to speak. I'm sure the fact that Wisconsin was tantamount to "ground zero" for the open carry movement over the past couple of years helped. I hope, that after those who wish to CC begin to do so, the open carry scene in Wisconsin will remain as vigorous as it has been. Now that we will soon have a choice as to manner of carry, it will be interesting to see which choice is being made.
    mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa

    Then there shall be no more mention of concealed carry on this forum? Including offering courses for concealed carry permits, knowing and understanding the laws (concerning concealed carry) better, which guns/holsters etc are better for concealed carry, .......?

    Only open carry stuff from here on out - at least from me.

    ETA: If ya can't say something about open carry, then don't say anything at all?
    Last edited by phred; 07-15-2011 at 09:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    Where did that come from? I certainly didn't deserve that.
    Whoa whoa... you're both great guys, don't bicker! Phred I think McX was saying that tongue in cheek. He likes to joke, and he probably meant it as such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post

    Then there shall be no more mention of concealed carry on this forum? Including offering courses for concealed carry permits, knowing and understanding the laws (concerning concealed carry) better, which guns/holsters etc are better for concealed carry, .......?
    No, I only meant we should be grateful for the forbearance of the Admins for allowing us to deviate so much into CC. I think we can take advantage of their generosity for a while, but eventually they'd like to "return to our previously scheduled show."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    No, I only meant we should be grateful for the forbearance of the Admins for allowing us to deviate so much into CC. I think we can take advantage of their generosity for a while, but eventually they'd like to "return to our previously scheduled show."
    I honestly don't see a lot of stuff on our forum specifically about CC anyway, hence my prior post. Most of the discussion centers on SB93, which it should at the moment. I feel that some don't understand it as a CARRY bill that affects both cc and oc.

    The CC specific posts are mostly from instructors. Even then, I'm sure Shotgun and some others will work woth OC and CC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    Wouldn't it simply make sense to spend a few extra moments on handgun mechanics and safety and some of the Wisconsin Firearms laws as they pertain to concealed carry, and open carry for all that matters? When the class demographics changes away from 12 yr olds and to 60 yr olds, why can't the Hunter Safety course hit on a few more things that are pertinent to concealed carry?

    I am not saying to completely revamped the course towards concealed carry. But I don't think ignoring it is the right thing to do.
    As a Hunter Education Instructor for over 30 years, my classes run around 15 hours. Hunter Education classes are geared towards 12 year olds and young people that for the most part never held a firearm. So what your saying is that you want me to teach 12 year olds "Handgun mechanics", "handgun safety" and laws pertaining to CCW. hmmm I can see a problem with that. First, I don't think parents would like me instructing their children the finer points of how to conceal, carry, and shoot a handgun.

    On the other hand, wouldn't an adult be better off taking one of my CCW classes (Yes I'm also a Personal Defense Hand Gun Instructor - flames are on the way) that are only 6 hours long (vs 15 hours for Hunter Education) where course content is along the lines of the everyday carry of a handgun, how to use restrooms while carrying, conversation about different types of holsters, discuss what to expect if one is involved in a firearm discharge, how much insurance we should have on ourselves, ways to prevent a bystander from grabbing your holstered weapon, a rundown of current laws concerning where we can and cannot carry, demo the 21 foot rule with a knife, and then of course there is the range time shooting your favorite handgun instead of my Hunter Education 22 cal. youth rifles.

    For me to cover Hunter Education material and then add on CCW material would mean a class of 21 hours. The classes cover different situations, Hunter Education is carrying a long gun in the woods, CCW is carrying a weapon in the concrete jungle, and IMHO why would one want to take a Hunter Education Class to qualify for CCW. The Classes are just way too different.

    I know I'm going to get flamed on these comments, but IMHO.

    JJC
    Last edited by JJC; 07-15-2011 at 10:25 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    I'm not going to flame you.

    I think handguns are used for hunting too and since this is a CARRY bill and not merely a CCW bill, it would make sense to have an hour on how to safely handle a handgun in the HS course. In fact, it's kind of silly that it is't in there now. I don't remember it being touched on at all when I was in HS.

    I don't think anyone is talking about turning HS into some sort of CCW course, just basic safe handling of another weapon than can and will be carried.

    I'm not the only one to hunt with a handgun occasionally am I?
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    If you get questions about what will qualify an individual to have a license to carry a concealed weapon and what fulfills the required training element, please refer those questions to the state Department of Justice
    How about having a FAQ, or at least a link to the FAQs that have already been issued, on the DNR page?
    Would that really be so hard?
    And I know there are some people who hunt w/ pistols, so including basic safety/mechanics for pistols isn't really outside their scope of responsibility.
    I agree that discussing self-defense or methods of concealed carry would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjc
    you want me to teach 12 year olds "Handgun mechanics", "handgun safety" and laws pertaining to CCW. hmmm I can see a problem with that. First, I don't think parents would like me instructing their children the finer points of how to conceal, carry, and shoot a handgun.
    Don't need to say anything about concealing, but how to safely carry & shoot? Sure.
    And mechanics, at least as far as "this is how to load, unload, & keep it from going bang when you don't want it to", sure.
    You're already teaching them the exact same things for long guns.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 07-16-2011 at 12:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJC View Post
    As a Hunter Education Instructor for over 30 years, my classes run around 15 hours. Hunter Education classes are geared towards 12 year olds and young people that for the most part never held a firearm. So what your saying is that you want me to teach 12 year olds "Handgun mechanics", "handgun safety" and laws pertaining to CCW. hmmm I can see a problem with that. First, I don't think parents would like me instructing their children the finer points of how to conceal, carry, and shoot a handgun.

    On the other hand, wouldn't an adult be better off taking one of my CCW classes (Yes I'm also a Personal Defense Hand Gun Instructor - flames are on the way) that are only 6 hours long (vs 15 hours for Hunter Education) where course content is along the lines of the everyday carry of a handgun, how to use restrooms while carrying, conversation about different types of holsters, discuss what to expect if one is involved in a firearm discharge, how much insurance we should have on ourselves, ways to prevent a bystander from grabbing your holstered weapon, a rundown of current laws concerning where we can and cannot carry, demo the 21 foot rule with a knife, and then of course there is the range time shooting your favorite handgun instead of my Hunter Education 22 cal. youth rifles.

    For me to cover Hunter Education material and then add on CCW material would mean a class of 21 hours. The classes cover different situations, Hunter Education is carrying a long gun in the woods, CCW is carrying a weapon in the concrete jungle, and IMHO why would one want to take a Hunter Education Class to qualify for CCW. The Classes are just way too different.

    I know I'm going to get flamed on these comments, but IMHO.

    JJC
    I'm not going to flame you. All I am suggesting is that IF there are a significant number of adults who are taking Hunter Safety to satisfy the permit requirement, then why can't a Hunter Safety Instructor spend more time on handgun safety and mechanics and some time on judicious use of deadly force instead of tree stand safety and a compass course for those adults. Of course, if there is only one instructor, then you probably cannot enhance those topics. The Hunter Safety handbook (last version) spends two pages on the parts of a handgun and how to load and unload them. The classes that I am involved in do not cover those topics because the DNR test does not emphasize that material. Eventually those 12 yr olds are going to use that Hunter Safety course for the permit requirement, although by then I hope the requirement goes away. I realize that the time spent in Hunter Safety classes is optimized for the beginning hunter, even though some experienced hunter's take the course.

    The Hunter Safety instructor group that I work with is a great bunch of people. I am the only handgun hunter of both big and small game. Personally, I think handgun safety is short changed but the demographics and time constraint rule the decision.

    As much as I think people would better optimize their time by taking a dedicated concealed carry class, I feel that with the "guidance of the legislature", many people will take Hunter Safety for one tenth the cost. As word gets out about the quality of good concealed carry classes at reasonable prices and as friends speak of the other concerns about using a handgun for self defense, more Hunter Safety graduates will take the good classes.

    I put a lot of time and money into my personal training and I take it seriously. I encourage others to seek training as well - voluntarily of course.

    When Constitutional Carry was first advanced, people would remark that even hunters had to take Hunter Safety, so why should not a person who carries a handgun have some training. I made strong arguments on this forum, in letters to and discussions with legislators, and to the Senate hearing that hunting and self defense are completely different and should not be compared. I know the difference and I have a hard time understanding why Hunter Safety is even a satisfactory solution to the permit requirement other than it was a political move.

    I see hunting with a handgun, open and concealed carry, understanding the carry laws and use of force all under the same big section heading. Obviously the DNR does not. What the DNR is missing is that Hunter Safety provides a fairly good opportunity to increase a person's knowledge so that they do not injure or kill themselves or another, and they are not taking advantage of it.

    just my $.02

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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    I'm not going to flame you. All I am suggesting is that IF there are a significant number of adults who are taking Hunter Safety to satisfy the permit requirement, then why can't a Hunter Safety Instructor spend more time on handgun safety and mechanics and some time on judicious use of deadly force instead of tree stand safety and a compass course for those adults. Of course, if there is only one instructor, then you probably cannot enhance those topics. The Hunter Safety handbook (last version) spends two pages on the parts of a handgun and how to load and unload them. The classes that I am involved in do not cover those topics because the DNR test does not emphasize that material. Eventually those 12 yr olds are going to use that Hunter Safety course for the permit requirement, although by then I hope the requirement goes away. I realize that the time spent in Hunter Safety classes is optimized for the beginning hunter, even though some experienced hunter's take the course.

    The Hunter Safety instructor group that I work with is a great bunch of people. I am the only handgun hunter of both big and small game. Personally, I think handgun safety is short changed but the demographics and time constraint rule the decision.

    As much as I think people would better optimize their time by taking a dedicated concealed carry class, I feel that with the "guidance of the legislature", many people will take Hunter Safety for one tenth the cost. As word gets out about the quality of good concealed carry classes at reasonable prices and as friends speak of the other concerns about using a handgun for self defense, more Hunter Safety graduates will take the good classes.

    I put a lot of time and money into my personal training and I take it seriously. I encourage others to seek training as well - voluntarily of course.

    When Constitutional Carry was first advanced, people would remark that even hunters had to take Hunter Safety, so why should not a person who carries a handgun have some training. I made strong arguments on this forum, in letters to and discussions with legislators, and to the Senate hearing that hunting and self defense are completely different and should not be compared. I know the difference and I have a hard time understanding why Hunter Safety is even a satisfactory solution to the permit requirement other than it was a political move.

    I see hunting with a handgun, open and concealed carry, understanding the carry laws and use of force all under the same big section heading. Obviously the DNR does not. What the DNR is missing is that Hunter Safety provides a fairly good opportunity to increase a person's knowledge so that they do not injure or kill themselves or another, and they are not taking advantage of it.

    just my $.02
    phred;

    In my HS classes I do cover the barest of basics of hunting with a handgun. (I also hunt with a handgun-and love it) For the most part all the ADULTS that have taken my classes have either had children in the class or were planning on a out west hunt and didn't have the required HS certificate to hunt out west. I pray that adults looking for cheap way to a CC permit don't swamp my classes.

    As for adding CC information in my class content, I usually run out of time just covering the beginning hunter information.

    JJC
    Last edited by JJC; 07-16-2011 at 08:13 AM.

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    Talking Definitely Humor Guys N Gals!

    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    Take the WisCarry class Shotgun is offering and shut the hell up, i plan to.............take the class.........not the shut the hell up part.

    poor attempt at humor, lost in translation.
    Phred, I can guarantee you McX wasn't saying this to anyone in particular and that it is humor! He directed his comment at himself as well.

    Carry on!
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quick question... does Wisconsin allow handgun deer hunting?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Regular Member IcrewUH60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    I'm not going to flame you.

    I think handguns are used for hunting too and since this is a CARRY bill and not merely a CCW bill, it would make sense to have an hour on how to safely handle a handgun in the HS course. In fact, it's kind of silly that it is't in there now. I don't remember it being touched on at all when I was in HS.

    I don't think anyone is talking about turning HS into some sort of CCW course, just basic safe handling of another weapon than can and will be carried.

    I'm not the only one to hunt with a handgun occasionally am I?
    What can/do you hunt with [an openly carried] handgun? Just curious.

    [added on edit]
    Last edited by IcrewUH60; 07-16-2011 at 11:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I'm going to disagree with you all.

    It seems DNR is tasked with providing Hunter Safety education. They do that. Their mandate does not cover concealed carry training, whatever that may turn out to be. They are up-front with telling folks that is the situation.

    Now, Wisconsin may decide that a DNR Hunter Safety class will suffice for the edication/training needed to comply with the new CCW regulation - or they may decide it does not. If it qualifies I am sure they will be pleased to see so many "new hunters" signing up. If it does not, they will miss out on an opportunity to gain some small amount of additional revenue.

    What amazes me is that this is OCDO, a site dedicated to Open Carry, and here are a bunch of folks whinging about concealed carry. There are many sites that focus on concealed carry, and they are all atwitter with the impending CCW permit that folks in Wisconsin will be applying for.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Quick question... does Wisconsin allow handgun deer hunting?
    Wisconsin allows hunting with a handgun, Large and small game.

    If you havn't tried it, please do. I find the challenge stimulating.

    JJC

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